CCCP IV: Poll Thread and Initial Discussion (The Taurans)

[Servant of Dante]

I apologize for the thread necro, if the mods don't like it I'll cease and desist

 

Firstly, it's important to complete the Tauran Chapter as part of our DIY Chapter. This is perhaps the most 'standalone' section, and allows us to detail the history of the Chapter and their way of waging war. Until the Tauran Chapter is completed, the rest of the project will be on hold. 

 

I think this is a really neat project, but I really don't feel I have the interest or knowledge to really advance the space marine side of things, is there any interest in continuing this?

Edited June 30, 2018 by Servant of Dante

[Brother Lunkhead]

Hail Servant of Dante,

 

It's good to see someone else with interest in this topic. I think this is a very worthwhile project and some good progress was made before it was ……  dumped!

 

I'd love to advance this project, but to be honest, based on the lack of enthusiasm for any of my posts and the general disappearance of support I don't think I'm the one to take over. I would wholeheartedly like to help resurrect it though.

[Servant of Dante]

Well, if Molotov is willing to do the putting-things-together part, as he seems to be, we could probably get things put together, even if it's just the three of us.

 

I'm working on the Sisters Order myself regardless :P It's something I wanted to do as a personal project anyway.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Yes... even if it's just the three of us I'm in

[Servant of Dante]

I'd not been following this thread closely but my thoughts on the most recent posts:

 

Homeoworld

If they return periodically to offer tribute at their old Fortress Monastery, than they obviously consider it an important site and would defend it if it was attacked. I think the idea is neat, but if they truly do not care for their old homeworld they wouldn't return to perform rituals with no strategic purpose. Perhaps it is a reminder of the past, and that people, chapters, and all things change and that the past and these changes are important. Or it could be part of a philosophy where the chapter considers that planet their home, but by maintaining this tie they "take their home with them" wherever they go, so to speak.

 

Beliefs

This would tie into the ideas I mentioned above if they did return their dead to their homeworld. They might believe that the spirits of their brothers are with them, as long as they are laid to rest on their homeworld.

 

Organization

How codex are the taurans? do we know? It could be neat to really play into the "Nomadic Tribes" idea, where the various companies are each a "tribe" that shares a heritage and sort of "family" with the others but generally acts autonomously. The concept of a Chapter Master might even be rather vague with this sort of organization.

 

Combat Doctrine

As it seems we will be going for larger groups, the idea I mentioned above wouldn't quite work, it would have to be pairs of companies or something if it was to be used at all. What would the Taurans "signature" unit(s) be? when you describe their fighting style I think Terminators, but several armies use Terminators extensively.

[Brother Cambrius]

Nice to see this getting a little steam going. :)

 

In terms of Combat Doctrine, I would certainly picture them being mounted on Razorback assaults with attack bikes in support as their signature 'Stampede' unit. Aerial Combat they eschew when possible, preferring the solid ground to fight upon?

 

With company structure, would something akin to the Novamarines or the Iron Hands clan structure work?

 

Cambrius

[Commissar Molotov]

I've always been keen to see this project continue, but it was becoming the Molotov show - and that's not really what it was about! I'm very keen to see some discussion going.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Hello everyone. Good to see some returnees.

 

Dante, I like the ideas you've put forward. Here are some thoughts in the areas:

 

Homeworld

Spiritually important, but not a strategic asset. They would defend it if attacked, but do not maintain a marine presence there. Perhaps they have a astropathic watch fortress to warn the Taurans of any intrusion. The Taurans return as a chapter in a spititual pilgrimage to give offerings to the spirit of the place and lay battle brothers to rest.

 

Beliefs

Sounds good.

 

Organization

Generally codex compliant. I like the idea of each company as a tribe, generally acting autonomously, but joining with the greater tribe when called upon (chapter size campaigns, pilgrimage to the homeworld, etc.).The Chapter Master is the tie that binds the tribes together. He may be the spiritual leader as well a military one. Perhaps the Chapter Master is also the Chapter Reclusiarch.

 

Combat Doctrine

Actually, I think the tribal organization fits fine with their combat doctrine. Heavy use of terminators in some tribes (companies) and Brother Cambrius' Razorbacks and Attack Bike formations in other tribes sounds good.

 

As far as company structure goes, don't forget the Primaris

Edited July 5, 2018 by Brother Lunkhead

[Brother Cambrius]

 

As far as company structure goes, don't forget the Primaris

 

Considering the distance the Taurans patrol and crusade away from the Imperium as is mentioned, how much time has the Primaris Taurans spent with their parent chapter and are the older Astartes aloof and untrusting of their new brethren until they have proven their ability and worth in battle?

 

Cambrius

[Brother Lunkhead]

We should decide how long the Primaris have been integrated into the chapter. Remember that the Primaris have been around for about one hundred years in the current time-line. In spite of the length of chapter history, one hundred years is still a long time.

 

Another thing to think about is if the Taurans have accepted Primaris technology, what demands have the AM made upon them in exchange?

[Brother Cambrius]

We should decide how long the Primaris have been integrated into the chapter. Remember that the Primaris have been around for about one hundred years in the current time-line. In spite of the length of chapter history, one hundred years is still a long time.

 

Another thing to think about is if the Taurans have accepted Primaris technology, what demands have the AM made upon them in exchange?

 

My ideas on integration from a battle stand point.

 

The Taurans likely were unimpressed initially by the slow movement of the Repulsor but after seeing it applied effectively as a central spearhead as their Razorbacks and Land Speeder pincered and entrenched foe either side, the upper echelons saw their usefulness.

 

The Aggressors would certainly be a popular option amongst the new application of Primaris hardware as replacements for Assault Squads after Companies were rebuilt following whatever losses were taken during the initial phase of the splitting of the Galaxy.

 

In terms of acceptance, would it be too far a stretch to suggest that Primaris marines aiming for leadership had to display their combative skills in duels against the Veterans in jousts or blood duels?

 

Regarding the AdMech, What would the Taurans have at their disposal to offer that they would part? A ship may be a bargain too far, but I could certainly see them offer vehicles of some description that the chapter rarely utilise.

 

Cambrius

[Brother Lunkhead]

Looks good Brother Cambrius

 

As far as the AdMech goes, I don't think trade would be material per say, but services. Services could come in the form of protection of exploritor fleets, defense of forge worlds, rights to exotic tech that the Taurans may discover during their campaigns... those sorts of things. 

[Commissar Molotov]

I would like to see the Tauran in the Imperium Nihilus - but their homeworld in the main Imperium. I like the idea of them fording the Cicatrix Maledictum to reach their ancestral home. Somewhat like bulls migrating? Edited July 10, 2018 by Commissar Molotov

[Brother Lunkhead]

I would like to see the Tauran in the Imperium Nihilus - but their homeworld in the main Imperium. I like the idea of them fording the Cicatrix Maledictum to reach their ancestral home. Somewhat like bulls migrating?

 

Sounds good This could make for some interesting stories/campaigns. In addition, as a strong fleet chapter they would be a valuable ally to the AdMech for protection of forge worlds in the Imperium Nihilus region. This would also benefit the Tauran as this would give them priority for refit and resupply.

 

Continual operations and routinely coming to the aid of imperial forces and worlds in this besieged region of the galaxy would also increase their prestige as well.

[Brother Cambrius]

 

I would like to see the Tauran in the Imperium Nihilus - but their homeworld in the main Imperium. I like the idea of them fording the Cicatrix Maledictum to reach their ancestral home. Somewhat like bulls migrating?

 

Sounds good This could make for some interesting stories/campaigns. In addition, as a strong fleet chapter they would be a valuable ally to the AdMech for protection of forge worlds in the Imperium Nihilus region. This would also benefit the Tauran as this would give them priority for refit and resupply.

 

Continual operations and routinely coming to the aid of imperial forces and worlds in this besieged region of the galaxy would also increase their prestige as well.

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree with having them be on the Imperium Nihilus side despite their homeworld being on the other side of the Cicatrix Maledictum.

 

The idea of the Taurans being a major fulcrum in protecting and retaking Forge Worlds that were attacked or lost to the enemies that spawned from the Imperium's splitting is a very strong one and would make perfect sense in the AdMech prioritising their resupplying and refitting.

 

Add in the Primaris reinforcement, it would work in their new brethren and war material being integrated and accepted through a view of necessity through the losses the Taurans take with their arduous campaigns.

 

+++

 

Another thing I wanted to touch on to add a bit of unique flavour to the Taurans and their descendancy from the Khan, I mentioned earlier that the Taurans possibly eschew aerial combat when necessary as they prefer to fight with solid ground beneath their feet.

Could we possibly make it thus that it is considered a major dishonour to not die upon the ground of the battlefield from the belief of their homeworld?  Those that take the task and responsibility of flying their Thunderhawks/Storm Talons are viewed with caution as they have sacrificed their honour of dying upon the solid ground of the battlefield.

 

I'm not sure how that would affect them in void warfare, but it's a concept I've been thinking on.

 

+++

 

Back onto Chapter Structure, if the Taurans are a void-faring chapter, I am warming more to the concept of the Clan structure akin to the Iron Hands, as opposed to the Codex companies of the Novamarines, who have not operated together as one chapter for millennia. Any ideas on possible alternate names for Company Captains etc to befit this structure if we commit to it?

 

Cambrius

[Brother Lunkhead]

A few thoughts..... 

 

Culture

 

From past posts we seem to be leaning towards a Maasai / Zulu warrior culture, which sounds good to me as it would set them apart well from the White Scars as well as explore a cultural variant that we seldom see. These cultures seem to be in line with much of how we seem to see the Taurans. We also discussed Iberian (Spanish / Moorish) culture. Perhaps we can meld all of these ideas. Where do we want to go on this? I think we need to settle this as it will color almost every aspect of the chapter.

 

Structure

 

I also favor the clan structure over a strict codex structure generally, Although, I do see benefits in maintaining the reserve companies. Perhaps they can be limited to the 8th (Assault) and 9th (Heavy Weapons) companies for reasons I will elaborate on below.

 

Earlier I brought up the idea of the Chapter Master also being a Chaplain. I think this would make sense in as he is not only the Chapter's military leader, but spiritual leader as well. He brings the tribes together and leads them in both large scale military operations as well as the pilgrimage to the homeworld. I don't believe any other chapter does this. I think this would give them a unique flavor.

 

Should we have an exclusively Primaris company or should they be integrated into the main companies? Or should we do both? I like Brother Cambrius' idea of Primaris seeking leadership positions having to engage in jousts or blood duels to prove their worth.

 

Reserve Companies - Masters of the Sky and the Steel Fist

 

I've given some thought to the ideal of the Tauran eschewing aerial combat and seeing it as dishonorable. I am uncomfortable with this idea because I see it as unhealthy and ultimately destructive to the chapter. Mastery of the air is vital to any military operation. If those who engage in this important component of chapter operations are  seen as dishonorable it will have a malign effect on moral and ultimately undermine the cohesion of the chapter.

 

I suggest an alternate compromise. While the majority of the Tauran Tribes see ground combat as the ultimate expression of the chapter's military and spiritual virtues, the 8th(Assault Company) Tribe takes to the air to express their military prowess. The 8th hammers the foe from the air with flyers and assault marines.

 

In a similar vein, the 9th (Heavy Weapons Company) Tribe takes to the tank and heavy weapons to rain death upon their enemies.

 

There is a fierce but brotherly rivalry between the tribes based on these expressions of military prowess.

 

Strategy/Tactics

 

I think it makes sense that each tribe generally operates independently utilizing  only its own resources. They would primarily be engaged in patrol, escort, and surgical strike missions.

 

The tribes will be brought together by the Chapter Master for large scale operations and campaigns. In these operation we see the tactic that the Tauran are famous (or infamous) for, The Stampede. When engaged against a superior force, each Tribe strikes and fades, thus wearing down and encircling the enemy force. The surrounded and weakened opposition is then hit with the full force of the chapter, and 'stampeded' into oblivion.

 

Opinions and comments?

Edited July 20, 2018 by Brother Lunkhead

[Brother Lunkhead]

Aaaand another thing...….. 

 

Just thought of something else to shake things up even more. If we go with the idea of the tribal companies, they will all exhibit some cultural differences. Each company will be responsible for it's own recruitment and training of neophytes. Rather than the chapter maintaining a 10th (scout) company, each company maintains one or perhaps even two scout squads. Each company draws from specific worlds that it has special ties to. This would over time create noticeable cultural variations between the companies that would, I think go to give each company interesting variety and give the chapter as a whole a unique quality.

 

In order to maintain chapter orthodoxy, each company is assigned a chaplain. Each chaplain is recruited and trained independently of the companies by the Reclusiam and steeped in the ancient history and lore of the Tauran. Each chaplain then ensures that companies are indoctrinated in the ancient Tauran ways, thus maintaining strong ties to the chapter proper.

 

In this way we can justly utilize and draw on all of the cultures we have discussed. For example, the battle companies maintain strong Zulu/Maasai like agrarian traditions and respect for the land. Perhaps the 8th (Assault) Company and 9th (Heavy Weapons) Company recruit from worlds with a more Iberian medieval culture (Moorish and Spanish) with knightly traditions.

 

What do you think  …..  ……

Edited July 23, 2018 by Brother Lunkhead

[Woe to the Vanquished]

Hi everyone! I’ve been a long time lurker. This thread has always interested me, but it’s apparent death (or at least hibernation) has finally prompted me to make an account. If the thread is too far gone, then so be it, but story telling is the foundation of our hobby and I think we’ve got the bones of a good story here, one I’d like to see completed.

 

That said, I think we need to focus on origins and causes of The Tauran’s current condition, whatever that ends up being. Even if their origins remain mysterious in the eventual final product, a clear starting point in our minds provides plenty of opportunities to leave tantalizing hints at what was or what might yet be, even if it not explicitly spelled out from our perspective in the 42nd millennium.

 

As I’ve been reading, there are a few themes that stood out to me. The first, and perhaps too obvious, is the bull motif. As has been noted, bull motifs appear throughout human history as signs of strength, virility, and perhaps a certain recklessness (bull in a china shop). Of course, as has already been mentioned several times, overtheming is a danger when you are given so little to work with. Instead of addressing heraldry directly (although there’s a story there I’m sure), perhaps we can look to the story of the Old Bull and the Young Bull.

 

For those who are not familiar with the story, the two bulls are standing upon a hill spy a herd of heifers behind a fence. The young Bull exclaims “let us charge down the hill and together we can smash through the fence! For our effort, we may lay with a heifer each.” The old bull replied, “ let us walk down the hill, take a drink at the stream, go through the open gate over there, and we may lay with all the heifers”

 

Althoguh I am uncertain of the etymology of this story, it’s meaning is clear - the wisdom of experience yields greater rewards than the brash enthusiasm of youth. Since the Taurans are tentatively described as “steady,” it suggests that they were not always so. Perhaps brashness and hot headed youth has led them to their current state as a crusading chapter?

 

Leaving aside the bull motif,we need to nail down when and why they were founded. Armies are a product of their times and the cultures that make them. I think I’ve seen the 4th or 5th founding suggested for the Taurans. This places their founding pretty solidly in M32 or maybe in early M33. The Imperium is a VERY different place to the Imperium of even M35 or M36, not to mention our current timeline. Rogal Dorn himself ordered the creation of the 3rd founding, and Vulkan takes part in the War of the Beast directly preceding the 4th Founding. There are still primarchs alive (maybe) who remember the Heresy, and the Traitor Legions are still reeling from their defeat. Further more, it is not at all clear how widespread Imperials dogma of the current age has supplanted The Imperial Truth as accepted doctrine by this time. The Nova Terra Interegnum looms on the horizon and the Age of Apostasy will follow shortly there after.

 

A new chapter (perhaps one of the first created whole cloth from gene tithes) is a very different chapter than the ones that come before. Imagine being one of the first chapters to exist that wasn’t founded in some way by veterans of the original legions? Even relatively new chapters like the Scythes of the Emperor are founded by old veterans of the legions and they are only founded at the very beginning of M32. The dreadnoughts of other chapters earned their honor on the Wall of the Emperor’s Palace and here you are, a blank slate. How tempting it must be to strive for glory, for some small measure of notoriety that in truth you will never achieve? How galling it might be to be assigned “border patrol” for lack of a better word when your fathers discovered and conquered and fought and died in the greatest endeavors and the greatest tragedy humanity has ever endured?

 

Space Marines are an interesting subject because they are simultaneously hard to relate to for their sheer super human qualities yet they are almost pitiful creatures in truth. Free from the human condition in so many ways, yet doomed to a Sisyphean task of fighting wars that will never end. They possess no urge to reproduce, and fear does not guide their actions. They share more in common with the mono tasked servitors of the Imperium than they do with a mortal man. What then is left to a marine in this new Imperium? Not long before their advent, the legions fought to make the galaxy safe for humanity. The dream of the original legions would have culminated in them beating their swords into plow shares had it ever been achieved. All that a marine of this period has left is the dawning realization that his services will always be needed, and he clings to human notions of honor, and fidelity, and the moral rectitude expected of his status in an Imperium slowly going insane.

 

To draw this back to the Taurans and to some of the themes you all have discussed, I particularly like the idea of a Moorish or Iberian theme. Medieval Spain is a fascinating place with clashes of cultures and religions that will give rise to what must have seemed an unending conflict between Islam and Christendom. Inquisition, Muslim conquest, Christian re-conquest, and the dawning of the age of discovery with all the horrors visited upon the New World by Spanish Conquistadors.

 

The more I think of the Taurans, the more I think of Don Quixote. The Taurans are a chapter born in the wrong era. Filled with the lore of the original legions, they strive to live up to the ideals and deeds of their heroes in an age that no longer allows them to. An honor bound chapter - perhaps some would say honor obsessed - soon find themselves caught up in the Nova Terra Interregnum on what would now be described as on the wrong side of history.

 

That story hasn’t really suggested itself to me yet although perhaps the hapless Mantis Warriors of the Badab Wars might provide a guide.whatever their early history, it results in them losing their home world either temporarily or permanently. This brings me to my last historical inspiration for the Taurans as they have sort of formed themselves in my mind.

 

In the Muslim invasion of the Iberian Peninsula in 711 CE, Tariq Ibn Ziyad is said to have burned his boats. In 1519 AD, Hernan Cortes, the Spanish Conquistador who would go on to inflict such misery on the people of the New World, is said to have burned his ships so that his men would have to conquer, or die. I see a young chapter, caught up in events, clashing with the Frater Militia of the Ecclesiarchy during the Interregnum over a matter of honor - perhaps justly, perhaps unjustly. What follows is part Badab War, part War of Faith. This is their baptism by fire into the steady crusading chapter of today. Whatever the story, at its conclusion, they leave their home systems behind, burning their monastery as they go forth to conquer or die.

 

I’ll wrap this up now, but since I like to hear myself talk, I’ll leave you with a few more thoughts. The Space marines are often portrayed as either jack of all trades marines (Ultramarines) or super specialized (Alpha Legion). In reality, they are masters of all trades in warfare. To the enemies of the Imperium, it makes virtually no difference if the marines assaulting your stronghold are White Scars or Imperial Fists. Both sides are more than capable of deploying awesome siege warfare or lightning quick hit and run strikes. I’ll admit that it’s fun to imagine a marine chapters preferred method of warfare, but to anyone except another marine, it’s probably an academic difference at best. The more you emphasize one aspect of their warfare, the more avenues for story telling you wall off.

 

Phew, that took a while. I hope you’ll forgive my enthusiasm.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Greetings Brother Woe,

 

Thanks for coming into this promising but much neglected post. I'm familiar with the two bulls story..... the one I heard was a little bawdier but the message was the same.

 I think I like where you are headed with your ideas... I hope you might find a way to fuse together some or all of the ideas we generally agreed upon earlier. However much I would like to spend more time with the Taurans, I'm afraid current real world circumstances make that impossible for the moment. So if you wish to lend your talents to this noble chapter, you have my support (for whatever that is worth). I'll check in from time to time to lend my two cents (for whatever that is worth). Good luck and well met

[Commissar Molotov]

Hi Woe, 

 

Thank you for the thoughtful post. I've always been clear that I am keen to see the Tauran completed - but this is a thread that can only work with collaboration, and it really seems that the Liber is a much quieter place than it used to be!

 

Your story of the old bull and the young bull certainly seems to link well with the idea that the Tauran have abandoned their previous way of life, perhaps linking in with the Nova Terra Interregnum and the idea that they committed a "crime". The idea that they might reflect upon their previous actions and be working to atone them, in a way. You mention the idea o a Sisyphean task, and that links in with vague ideas of mythology (Greek or otherwise) that might connect to the Tauran. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

Commissar Molotov, could you please clarify Are you saying that this topic is dead and you don't want Brother Woe to work on this? Perhaps I'm reading too much into your first statement:

 

  "Thank you for the thoughtful post. I've always been clear that I am keen to see the Tauran completed - but this is a thread that can only work with collaboration, and it really seems that the Liber is a  much quieter place than it used to be!"

[Woe to the Vanquished]

I read it as the topic not being dead, but that I shouldn’t get too carried away and wait for others to weigh in. That said, it sounds like I could be waiting a while.

[Brother Lunkhead]

Hey Brother Woe,

That's how I would take it, but I don't think you should have to waite too long for others to respond..... your first post I'd give a week since things have been dormant so long. After that, I'd give it 48hrs. I think that's plenty of time if people are really interested. I'll keep an eye on this subject and respond asap. You're clearly keen to do some work here and I for one welcome it and don't want to see you get discouraged.

[Woe to the Vanquished]

History is not a neat story that wraps itself nicely and presents itself to us for interrogation. It is serpentine, twisting in and out of view and influenced by events big and small. Even in a universe as seemingly moribund and static as the Imperium of Man, things change. 

 

An all encompassing treatise on the Taurans is as impossible as an all encompassing treatise on the variations in religious worship of the Emperor practiced across the Imperium. Instead, we are forced to look at snippets. I posit that an IA article is only a snippet in time. Even a chapter as well established as the Ultramarines may look VASTLY different if viewed in snapshot at the close of M34 instead of in M42. Narrative cohesion may not be necessary in something as short as an IA article. They can be simultaneously fiercely defending their homeworld, and have totally abandoned it to its fate. We are covering 8 thousand years so it's easy to create the impression that something happened to the chapter without spelling it out. Perhaps the author of the IA article assumes you know that the Taurans lost their home world in the Nova Terra Interregnum because they took on the Ecclesiarchy after the later violated the declared neutrality of the Taurans. 

 

 

Perhaps there are certain bed-rock constants we can agree on. The summary on page 1 is a good start. Honor duels can perhaps be a thing that the Taurans have always done. Obviously their gene seed is either White Scar or it isn't. So, in the interest of progress, lets pick say 5 things we will agree on as constant virtues or vices this chapter has and agree to them so we can start world-building for this chapter.

[Commissar Molotov]

Well, I would've thought the fact that I went on to discuss Woe's ideas showed that I am still keen to develop the Tauran! My point is that I cannot develop the Chapter on my own, as that isn't very collaborative at all.

 

Also, if you follow anything else on the board that I do (Kill-Team Blackthorn, for example) you may know my wife is quite ill at the moment, which limits the amount of time I can spend in the Grim Darkness of the Far Future.

 

Still, fresh blood and fresh ideas are exactly what we need, so I will take a look at this thread over the weekend and see what I can do to support!

 

(Wouldn't a member of the Tauran be awesome in Blackthorn?)