redmapa Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 I got a question for you all, something that Ive been thinking for a while but cant seem to shake it off. Every Black Templar crusade has an Emperors Champion and each High Marshall renews the Vow Sigimund made, the one to wage an Eternal Crusade against the enemies of man, basically the Black Templar mission statement. Now since every crusade has a champion, do you think the Black Templars 'meta crusade' also has a champion? An office similar to a Master of Sanctity or High Marshall, the champion above all other champions that remains in his office until his death and follows the High Marshall in the Eternal Crusade. I think there should be, who else would wield Sigismunds sword? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother_Gneecapper Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 I believe there is, even if not specifically mentioned in the lore. It is mentioned that every crusade will have it's own Black Sword and Emperor's Champion and I assume that Helbrecht or any other High Marshall has a personal crusade they are leading as well as over seeing the other crusades. I would suspect that his crusade would name an Emperor's Champion. With that taken into consideration, I'd guess that the warriors that travel with the High Marshall as apart of his household would represent the very finest warriors of the chapter and that the champion selected from these ranks would likely be superior in skills to the others. I don't think this is a guarantee and AFAIK the lore doesn't specifically mention that any one EC is better than another. I could also see them all being roughly the same skill kind of along the lines that the Emperor is the one imparting some of his martial prowess to his selected champions in battle, raising them above the level of their brothers for the time that they are in His light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 (edited) Here's the thing though... in 7th ed. Codex: Space Marines, it states that there are only 10 Black Swords granted tot the Black Templars after the Siege of the Emperor's Palace M.31, although it didn't state if Sigismund's own sword was part of the 10 or if Sigismund's sword in the FW model is not part of the 10 swords is not clear... but officially there are only 10 Black Swords... Now, in the 7th ed. Codex, it didn't state that there is n Emperor's Champion in each and every Crusade, in fact it says that those who gain the vision of becoming an Emperor's Champion is rare, and they don't happen very often... so the Black Swords are carried by Crusades which probably has a high chance of having an Emperor's Champion, which we can assume would be big Crusades... But then again, according to 4th edition Codex, should an Emperor's Champion arise, he would be armed with the finest armor and the strongest weapon the Crusade can provide... making those the Armor of Faith and technically a Black Sword... but that was 4th ed.... In 8th ed. I didn't read much of the BT lore, mainly because it has that Librarius horse-poop that I refuse to acknowledge as canon... so stuff 8th ed. Codex... And Emperor's Champions don't necessarily need to be full-fledged Initiates too... in the BL book The Eternal Crusader, another item I detest for the witch-worship, a Neophyte aboard the Templar flagship gained the vision and became an Emperor's Champion... so it doesn't necessarily need to be a veteran to gain that rank... imho, the rank of Emperor's Champion isn't one that is gained... it's more like a permanent Sister's Act of Faith, where the Emperor's powers guide the capabilities of the Space Marine to heights never seen before... there wouldn't be a Master Champion since the Emperor's Champion isn't really a true rank that can be attained, but more of a special condition that happens only to Templars similar to Black Rage from Blood Angels or Wulfen from Space Wolves... but in terms of Chapter Champion, then yes, there would be a hierarchy... the best Champion would be the High Marshal's personal Honour Guard Champion... but in terms of Emperor's Champion... then no... the only thing the EC is bound to, is the duty that was entrusted to him by his visions... Edited October 6, 2017 by Marshal_Roujakis shandwen 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 Champions are not chosen by anyone but the Emperor. And the job is always terminal. (Sigismund may be the only exception as he was the only one not to die in the office of Champion) the idea that champions are themselves revealed in meditation goes back as far as third edition. Also, according to Guy Haley's lore, there is only one Champion in thr Chapter at any time. It was the Neophyte undergoing the visions in Marshal Amalrich's crusade which told Helbrecht that Bayard had died on Armageddon. (Grimaldus's acting promotion of his mate doesn't really count.) I don't mind the dead Librarius lore. The notion that Templars couldn't ever work with any psykers made no sense as they couldn't function without Navigators or Astropaths. The Imperial Fists had a librarius pre-heresy so why wouldn't thr newly formed Templars? In my view, the concept of the Champion also explains the lack of latent psykers in the Chapter. I would bet that they are the latent psykers, whose latency ends with their visions of the Emperor, guiding them to their demise. Which leads me back to my point that becoming the Champion is always terminal. Therefore I would argue that there couldn't be a Champion of Champions, either because there is only ever one at one time. Or, if you don't like that aspect of Haley's fluff, because they are all of equal rank and selected by the Emperor shandwen 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honda Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 The real question is, "Are you going to follow our lore as laid out by Castellans McNeill and Dembski-Bowden or will you allow the insidious whispers of Chaos to distract you?" Sword Brother Adelard, redmapa and TheOneTrueZon 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castellan Doren Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 CHAOS??? WHERE??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psykic_scribe Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 IMHO, - An Emperor's Champion will be specific to a Crusade, but not all crusades will have an Emperor's Champion. - However, there is nothing to prevent a Marshal (or High Marshal) from nominating a champion (with a small "c"?) from within his household of brethren. This would fit in with the 8th Edition Company Champion for stats - bending the naming for a Chapter that has no Companies! After all, we have worked around the Captain /Lieutenant - Marshal/Castellan issues for the Templars? Honda 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciler Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Also, according to Guy Haley's lore, there is only one Champion in thr Chapter at any time. It was the Neophyte undergoing the visions in Marshal Amalrich's crusade which told Helbrecht that Bayard had died on Armageddon. (Grimaldus's acting promotion of his mate doesn't really count.)A neophyte having a vision in Almarich's crusade ? Which book is that in ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 Eternal Crusader IIRC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Honestly I like the new fluff regarding the Champion. It makes him more special and unique; a thing of great importance. IMO the 4th book cheapened it with stuff like "Nominally every fighting company will have an EC" or some such. They even went so far as to say that the Black Sword wasn't always a sword, but could just be any old weapon they had lying around painted black. Now they are special, limited to only 10 in the whole chapter. They are sacred and cannot be lost. Firepower 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sword Brother Adelard Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Saying that, I have no clue how they got the one back from the hulk they destroyed in 'Eternal Crusader'. The only explanation I can think of is that the Champion's body was teleported back in the first wave of teleports and the Black Sword was chained to his arm! (I do find it interesting how in the fluff teleporting is not limited to Terminator Armour. Anyone can do it!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Honestly I like the new fluff regarding the Champion. It makes him more special and unique; a thing of great importance. IMO the 4th book cheapened it with stuff like "Nominally every fighting company will have an EC" or some such. They even went so far as to say that the Black Sword wasn't always a sword, but could just be any old weapon they had lying around painted black. Now they are special, limited to only 10 in the whole chapter. They are sacred and cannot be lost. And then some were lost and one destroyed by Guilliman. Eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RikuEru Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 (edited) Honestly I like the new fluff regarding the Champion. It makes him more special and unique; a thing of great importance. IMO the 4th book cheapened it with stuff like "Nominally every fighting company will have an EC" or some such. They even went so far as to say that the Black Sword wasn't always a sword, but could just be any old weapon they had lying around painted black. Now they are special, limited to only 10 in the whole chapter. They are sacred and cannot be lost. And then some were lost and one destroyed by Guilliman. Eh.You know, that scene in Rise of the Primarch, felt like a story hook, to me.So it can be retrieved in a later story, for WHEN they decide to churn out chapter specific Primaris Units or Characters, I could definitely see it in the Hands of a Primaris Emperor's Champion, obviously reforged more deadly, more sturdy, more zealous, more efficient, yaddayadda... than before. MkX armor with knightly, pompous helm, atleast 15 purity seals, golden halo and roughly 3-4 small smoking censers or mini shrines included, obviously Edited October 12, 2017 by RikuEru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebaur Posted October 12, 2017 Share Posted October 12, 2017 Honestly I like the new fluff regarding the Champion. It makes him more special and unique; a thing of great importance. IMO the 4th book cheapened it with stuff like "Nominally every fighting company will have an EC" or some such. They even went so far as to say that the Black Sword wasn't always a sword, but could just be any old weapon they had lying around painted black. Now they are special, limited to only 10 in the whole chapter. They are sacred and cannot be lost.And then some were lost and one destroyed by Guilliman. Eh.You know, that scene in Rise of the Primarch, felt like a story hook, to me.So it can be retrieved in a later story, for WHEN they decide to churn out chapter specific Primaris Units or Characters, I could definitely see it in the Hands of a Primaris Emperor's Champion, obviously reforged more deadly, more sturdy, more zealous, more efficient, yaddayadda... than before. MkX armor with knightly, pompous helm, atleast 15 purity seals, golden halo and roughly 3-4 small smoking censers or mini shrines included, obviously Why would they need to reforge it? It's plenty dangerous already and Primaris don't have better melee weapons than normal marines, just better guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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