Skitarii - 3rd Vanguard or 2nd Rangers?

[Imperator Deus]

I'm thinking of buying a third Start Collecting box, because I'd like to get another Dunecrawler. I'm trying to decide what to do with the Skitarii that come with it. At the moment I have 2 units of 10 Vanguard and 1 unit of 10 Rangers . Honestly I'm tempted to build another unit of Vanguard, I really like the Rad Carbines, but the long range on the Rangers Galvanic Rifles is pretty tempting too.

 

I'm still pretty new to AdMech, I mostly played small games with them in 7th (between 500 and 1000 points), while I was building my army and I still haven't put them on the table in 8th yet. All together I have just over 2,000 pts. now. Here's what I have if it helps:

 

HQ

Belisarius Cawl (still unassembled in box)

Techpriest Dominus with Eradication Ray and Phosphor Serpenta

Techpriest Dominus with Volkite Blaster and Macrostubber

Techpriest Enginseer

Elites

10 Sicarian Ruststalkers

Cybernetica Datasmith

Troops

3 Kataphron Breachers with Heavy Arc Rifles and Arc Claws

3 Kataphron Destroyers with Heavy Grav Cannons and Phosphor Blasters

10 Skitarii Rangers with 2 Transuranic Arquebi and Omnispex

10 Skitarii Vanguard with Arc Maul and Radium Pistol and 2 Arc Rifles

10 Skitarii Vanguard with Taser Goad and Radium Pistol and 2 Plasma Calivers

Fast Attack

3 Sydonian Dragoons with Taser Lances and Phosphor Serpentas

Heavy Support

2 Kastellan Robots with Twin Phosphor Blasters and Incendine Combustors

Onager Dunecrawler with Neutron Laser and Cognis Heavy Stubber

Onager Dunecrawler with Eradication Beamer

 

I'm probably going to use the Martian Dogma so that I can use Cawl unimpeded. I'm also thinking of getting another pair of Kastellans in the future. Any suggestions on how to kit them out? At the moment I'm thinking twin Phosphor Blasters and Incendine Combustors, same as the ones that I have now.

[MithrilForge]

you could make 2 squads of 5  1x Vanguard and 1x Ranger, make em either tooled up or just bare bones and use them as objective grabbers?! let the other units do the heavy lifting while these squads follow up the rear and hold captured objectives.

 

Cheers, Mithril

[Withershadow]

Kastellan Robots are best with all phosphor, all the time.

[MithrilForge]

"Mr Last Word" withershadow has a point there... always go triple Phosphor,although if you take the fists of Doom...put the incendine on those ones 

 

cheers, Mithril

[Withershadow]

I'd be interesting in hearing what you like about the Carbines.  Do you target the same elite targets that you shoot the plasma at, as math would suggest?  Has the rad aura come into play at any point?  And how is the arc-rifle armed unit?

 

I have a single Vanguard unit with data tether, plasma calivers, and arc pistol/taser that was a staple in my convocation.  I haven't been able to fit them into any 8th edition lists, although I have some vague notions of sticking them into an army with infiltrators and electropriests, and utilize Stygies rules to deploy them in a way where their rad aura could potentially assist the other units.

 

Other than that, the only troop choices I find myself considering while listbuilding for Mechanicus are Destroyers (for Kastellan elimination protocol buff and more dakka), and small ranger teams with an arquebus or two.  So I guess my suggestion would be to build more rangers. :P

[Xisor]

A thing I did was use the extra box to beef out the initial squads. (I wanted 3 Van squads, one with three Plas, one with three arc, and one all carbines, with 2x5 Rangers with two TUAS.)

 

Using the extra box and leftovers from the originals, you've now extra bodies to bump up the special weapons counts of those initial squads *and* put in the all new.

 

----

 

Personally, purely from temptation more than anything else, I'd vote for 2x5 Vanguard squads, bare carbines, but played aggressively as intimate covering fire, distractions, or at a push: objective grabbers.

[Imperator Deus]

I like the Rad Carbines for the sheer volume of fire. I played a 50 power level game against my buddy's Orks, and the 10 man Vanguard unit with Arc Rifles killed around a dozen Stormboyz in one round of shooting! I thought the Arc Rifles were fantastic in 7th. I would use them to soften up Dreadnoughts and transports, plus they were still S6 rapid fire weapons, so they weren't wasted on enemy infantry. Now, with the nerfing of haywire I'm not sure how they'll do. They did get cheaper though, which is good.

I used the Plasma Calivers mostly to deal with Terminators, Thunder Wolves, transports, etc. Standard plasma duty. The Rad Carbines causing extra wounds to the unit on 6s was always good against heavy infantry because it forced them to roll more saves, but even better for thinning down large infantry units because in 7th the 6s to wound would require additional saves, which could effect another single wound model in the target unit. Unfortunately, much like haywire, they suffered a slight nerf, now they cause 2 damage on a 6+ to wound, which means you're losing that benefit against single wound targets now since damage doesn't carry over. Terminators do have 2 wounds now, so they're still a viable target, I guess! So are Dreadnoughts and other light vehicles; after all, every wound roll would have to be a 6+ anyway, so each unsaved wound would do 2 damage. Even now that everybody can split fire, I would probably still pile all of the shots into an elite infantry unit to try to force the extra saves.

Unfortunately I usually forgot about the rad aura, but the few times I did remember it, it did kind of help level the field when the Vanguard were charged by assault specialists.

[Imperator Deus]

Making 2 five man squads is interesting. How has that worked out for you on the tabletop? I'm concerned that such a small squad of Rangers wouldn't have enough shots to do too much damage. With 3 shots per Rad Carbine the Vanguard might do alright though. My main concern with small units is that I think they wouldn't have any staying power. I'm afraid they would be wiped out too easily. Obviously it would keep morale check penalties to a minimum, but that wouldn't matter if the entire unit is destroyed in one volley. How do five man squads hold up?

[Withershadow]

The non-Arquebus rangers are basically just ablative wounds.  I'm not really counting on them for any damage output.

[DanPesci]

My current planning is to stick with 2 (hopefully adding a third) pretty big vangard squads - possibly max 10 - need to play around with points.

 

Rate of fire on the carbines mean they should be laying down wounds effectively, and then adding a couple arc rifles to each helps add more wounds on infantry (S6 is always nice) or light vehicles.

 

Going to be playing stygies or metalica, and need to pick up a couple dragoons so they can support and boost morale checks etc.

 

Although plasma carbines seems nice, theyve always felt a bit pricey for me....and im just not sure its needed if you are already bringing destroyers/kastellans/onagers etc which should be dealing with things like terminators anyway. Unless you happen to be playing ryza...and then plasma all day :)

 

The only reason i can see to bring rangers is in 5 man squads for deep strike denial and arqebus sniping...even with the points drop I just dont like the galvanic rilfes.

[Hagl87]

Looking at vanguard I am confused about fast rolling rad carbines against 2 wound models. Do you have to roll each to wound roll individually to see which ones are 2 damage so they can be allocated/saved when the damage is determined. This seems laborious on assault 3 weapons. Otherwise couldn't they just be allocated in the most/least efficient way by the other player. E.g. d1 then d2, model dead. D1 then d2, model dead.

I had agreed with my opponent last game to do all the d1 saves and allocations and then all the d2 saves and allocations.

[DeStinyFiSh]

Watched a BatRep from Winters a few days ago and he said he likes Rangers far more now than Vanguard and I think he has a point.

 

Save 1 point per model

+1 S shooting

+12" range

and -1AP is far better against single wound models.

 

Vanguard have way more shots, but they wound most or the stuff the hit on 5+ or worse and the target always gets its full armour save. That all for 1 extra point per model and less range.

 

I still lean towards Vanguard, but I am tempted to try Rangers that are not just sitting back and snipe stuff...

[Prot]

I think opinions will vary based on the games you play. I personally play tournament style games (ITC) and/or Objectives like modified Maelstrom all the time. We do this locally because it prevents stand and shoot armies from taking over entirely.

 

I like the Vanguard personally. My end zone is filled with stuff already, I need units to go mid board to grab objectives as well as 'shield' the good stuff from incoming traffic, and steering the deep strikers.

 

I am using two Arc Rifles in one Vanguard squad and I like it actually. I prefer to keep the units dirt cheap and a thing I'm seeing here is the Plasma may not survive, and over charging with the unit is a big gamble outside of Aura range. This is usually to take out a vehicle or walker. The Arc Rifles do 'respectable' output to hard targets without fear of blowing yourself up at a fairly economic price. For 16 points I"m getting 4 x S6 AP-1 shots that do D3 damage against Vehicles.

 

I'm okay with this. I don't spam it, but it seems to be an easy place to put a few extra points in my army.

[MithrilForge]

i like your reasoning Prot, i have a similar plan to yours(mine is based around the Meta of my playgroup though so take it with a bit of thought) ,i have a full plasma squad but they hold/Anchor the backfield with Cawl and any objectives on my side of the board (my play group consists of marines and nids/GSC that love to try suprise attacks in the back lines) and the arc Vanguard boys move forward under cover fire of shooty Kastelans and Jimmy Neutrons,assisted on the flanks by Fist of fury Kastelans and sniping rangers on the other flank (depending on where they place their command units of course) as an anti deep striker i have a unit of 5 of each rangers and vanguard (transitional units till i get more to bulk them out to full 10 man units) spaced carefully across my back lines...

 

our games usually go the full length and its mostly always a win or lose decision based on the last turn's fight... we all know each others one trick pony tactics so no one goes for the quick smash win or rush the enemy lines type play,its more of a chess game... although whenever new units get introduced it's quite fun to work new tactics into the equation  after getting decidedly smashed by your enemy . 

 

Mithril 

[Prot]

That's the best way to play! I love those last turn games. I'm trying not to use Cawl since the codex came out and it's forcing me to use units that Cawl prevents. For a while this allowed me to use beefier Vanguard and it actually was very economical vs spammy stuff.

 

So far I'm liking Skitarii troops over Destroyers but I really haven't put them back in my lists since the codex.

[DanPesci]

Looking at vanguard I am confused about fast rolling rad carbines against 2 wound models. Do you have to roll each to wound roll individually to see which ones are 2 damage so they can be allocated/saved when the damage is determined. This seems laborious on assault 3 weapons. Otherwise couldn't they just be allocated in the most/least efficient way by the other player. E.g. d1 then d2, model dead. D1 then d2, model dead.

I had agreed with my opponent last game to do all the d1 saves and allocations and then all the d2 saves and allocations.

 

Yeah i would certainly do it the way you have described (ie take one set first, then the other) just makes it waaay faster. However, i guess you might run into contention over who chooses which order...as there's some situations where you might want them taking the d2 ones first, and your opponent wont (e.g. 2 wound models like terminators).

 

Id probably play it like in 7th where the person controlling the shooting unit chose which order the opponent had to take saves from different AP weapons in...but worst comes to it..guess you could just roll off for the order

[Hagl87]

Thanks DanPesci, glad someone else thinks that seems sensible.

 

I too will be getting a further 10 skitarii to add to my current 10 vanguard and 10 rangers. Am thinking of doing 5 and 5 for now.

 

What are people's thoughts on using wrath or Mars on 10 radium vanguard? That's 30 shots

[Prot]

Thanks DanPesci, glad someone else thinks that seems sensible.

 

I too will be getting a further 10 skitarii to add to my current 10 vanguard and 10 rangers. Am thinking of doing 5 and 5 for now.

 

What are people's thoughts on using wrath or Mars on 10 radium vanguard? That's 30 shots

 

Yea that's something I talked about when the codex first leaked. You can combine that with the Strategem to some good effect. I personally like the priests but the great thing about the Rangers is it takes a unit most people really don't fear, and puts some real teeth into the squad.