Which Legion had the largest fleet?

[DogWelder]

There seems to be contradicting information on this issue. 

 

In 'HH: Tempest' it mentions that the Ultramarines had one of the smallest fleet of all the Legions. The same book stated that the Word Bearers, aided by a massive naval buildup prior to the heresy, had a gigantic fleet of 'over a hundred capital class' vessels, implying they were the largest fleet.

 

In fact, in 'Know No Fear' it flat out states that the 13th Legion lost 4/5th of its fleet in the Battle of Calth. Meaning it should be greatly reduced in fleet size by the end of the Horus Heresy.

 

However, 'Ruinstorm' contradicts this:

 

“For Calth!’ went the cry. The Ultramarines fleet had been reduced by that betrayal, yet it was still the largest of any Legion. Many of the ships that had survived that day were present now. ”

 

Excerpt From: David Annandale. “Ruinstorm.” iBooks. 

 

“By applying the lesson I have learned at Episimos and Davin. Your fleet is the largest. I will attack their bastions, Roboute. I will destroy their home worlds. ”

 

Excerpt From: David Annandale. “Ruinstorm.” iBooks. 

 

If the Ultramarines lost 4/5th of their fleet and still outnumbered all the other Legions, then that is a ridiculously large space fleet imo. The only way to reconcile this is by inferring:

 

-Since the 13th Legion lacked large amounts of battlecruisers/battleships, they instead pumped out hundreds of escort class vessels and Strike Cruisers/Battle Barges that made them numerically superior by weight of numbers but not by tonnage.

 

-The 10-year gap between Calth and the events of 'Ruinstorm' allowed the near-intact industrial base of Ultramar to significantly replenish the ship losses of the Ultramarines at Calth.

 

Aside from this, does anyone have knowledge of which fleet was the strongest/largest? Possibly backed up by sources? I could only get detailed info about fleet sizes for the Ultramarines in comparison to the other Legions. Would greatly appreciate more info on this topic.

Edited October 14, 2017 by DogWelder

[Noserenda]

I had thought Book 3 established the Fists as having the biggest fleet? Not read ruinstorm yet though but your theory of pumping out lots of smaller ships does seem sound.

[Marshal Loss]

Betrayal highlights the Dark Angels, the Sons of Horus and the Imperial Fists as having the numerically largest fleets, with Book 3 stating that the Imperial Fists had over 1,500 warships under their direct command, and that 'even the Sons of Horus and the Ultramarines could not rival such strength alone.' HH Tempest also mentions that the damage inflicted on the Ultramarines' fleet was 'crippling, and hamstrung any efforts to prosecute a war beyond the bounds of Ultramar,' leaving the Ultramarines so desperate for ships that they start attempting to salvage space hulks. That's not what you'd expect to see if they still had a numerically vast fleet, even if it were made up of strike cruisers. Betrayer shows the Ultramarines fleet (that which is present, anyway, some forty-one ships) being a rag-tag strike force cobbled together from separate fleets rather than a dedicated interdiction war-fleet.

 

Annandale probably just got carried away by the numerical strength of the Legion itself and transferred that to the fleet without checking other sources. You can make the argument that they were able to string together the most ships, but that clashes with numerous other sources which highlight other Legions as having larger fleets, leaving Ruinstorm to stand alone in stating that they had the numerically largest fleet at any point, let alone after the disaster at Calth.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[Ascanius]

Is it possible the XIII Legion fleet's only the largest compared to the I and IX Legions? i.e. the largest of the Loyalist fleets in Imperium Secundus? Edited October 15, 2017 by mhacdebhandia

[DogWelder]

Betrayal highlights the Dark Angels, the Sons of Horus and the Imperial Fists as having the numerically largest fleets, with Book 3 stating that the Imperial Fists had over 1,500 warships under their direct command, and that 'even the Sons of Horus and the Ultramarines could not rival such strength alone.' HH Tempest also mentions that the damage inflicted on the Ultramarines' fleet was 'crippling, and hamstrung any efforts to prosecute a war beyond the bounds of Ultramar,' leaving the Ultramarines so desperate for ships that they start attempting to salvage space hulks. That's not what you'd expect to see if they still had a numerically vast fleet, even if it were made up of strike cruisers. Betrayer shows the Ultramarines fleet (that which is present, anyway, some forty-one ships) being a rag-tag strike force cobbled together from separate fleets rather than a dedicated interdiction war-fleet.

 

Annandale probably just got carried away by the numerical strength of the Legion itself and transferred that to the fleet without checking other sources. You can make the argument that they were able to string together the most ships, but that clashes with numerous other sources which highlight other Legions as having larger fleets, leaving Ruinstorm to stand alone in stating that they had the numerically largest fleet at any point, let alone after the disaster at Calth.

 

I usually have the policy of relying on the most recent source rather than the greatest number of sources but you have a point.

 

Perhaps the Ultramarines were desperately press-ganging every ship that was remotely combat capable into their fleet alongside the freshly produced ones as well as captured ships. Resulting in a numerically superior fleet but one much weaker and with a fraction of the firepower. Thats the only lore explanation I can think. In which case, Annandale should have given us a small explanation at least. 

[Marshal Rohr]

Yeah, the context of the statement is that Guilliman has the largest fleet of those Legions present. It not a contradiction, 

[Marshal Loss]

 

I usually have the policy of relying on the most recent source rather than the greatest number of sources but you have a point.

 

Perhaps the Ultramarines were desperately press-ganging every ship that was remotely combat capable into their fleet alongside the freshly produced ones as well as captured ships. Resulting in a numerically superior fleet but one much weaker and with a fraction of the firepower. Thats the only lore explanation I can think. In which case, Annandale should have given us a small explanation at least.

 

That is a bad policy. Context matters.

 

I'm more inclined to agree with Rohr that it's simply ambiguously worded, and is referring to those Legions present, and not all Legions.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Marshal Loss

[gideon stargreave]

 

 

I usually have the policy of relying on the most recent source rather than the greatest number of sources but you have a point.

d have given us a small explanation at least.

 

That is a bad policy. Context matters.

 

I'm more inclined to agree with Rohr that it's simply ambiguously worded, and is referring to those Legions present, and not all Legions.

 

 

 

It won't let me like your post, but you're right, this is not a good policy, in basically anything. (although more recent quotes can be given more weight in certain circumstances, but here we are talking about a difference in a handful of years, not thousands (or are we, HH is after all "historicism", with all the fun that means))

 

2 points

 

story is always king

 

justify it however you need to to get the plot moving

 

 

 

 

[Brother Lunkhead]

Considering the fact that the Ultramarines have such a large sub-empire in the form of the 500 Worlds it would make sense that they have considerable fleet assets independent of the Crusade Fleet. These would of course be made up of primarily small system patrol ships. They would however also need several sector based fast reaction strike squadrons (similar to a US Navy carrier strike fleet) made up of a small number of capital class ships.

 

So it's not unreasonable to assume that even with 4/5th's of their Crusade Fleet destroyed, the XIIIth Legion could still cobble together one or more Retribution Fleets of considerable size. 

 

Having some experience in military logistics, I can easily imagine the vast fleet assets the Ultramarines can draw from. Anyway, that's my theory and I'm stickin' to it 

[Demoulius]

They can have the biggest fleet quite easily if number of ship include escorts and the like. Or are the reference about the size of their fleet specifcly about capital ships?

 

And like others already said. Ultramar is vast and has some pretty significant industrial potential. Its not far off to think that they have shipwrights of their own, easily capable of adding to their fleets ina a much shorter time then the other legions can.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Except didn't Lorgar and Angron's romp through Ultramar specifically wreck a lot of the Realm's military infrastructure? So rebuilding shouldn't be as easy as that.

 

'Still the largest of any Legion' doesn't really suggest building up beyond the fleets of their peers either to me. Rather it seems to be clearly stating that the Ultras have always had, and still retain, the largest fleet, despite the losses at Calth.

 

'Writer and editor didn't care/weren't paying close enough attention' is by far the most likely outcome.

[DogWelder]

Except didn't Lorgar and Angron's romp through Ultramar specifically wreck a lot of the Realm's military infrastructure? So rebuilding shouldn't be as easy as that.

 

'Still the largest of any Legion' doesn't really suggest building up beyond the fleets of their peers either to me. Rather it seems to be clearly stating that the Ultras have always had, and still retain, the largest fleet, despite the losses at Calth.

 

'Writer and editor didn't care/weren't paying close enough attention' is by far the most likely outcome.

 

If I recall correctly, the Shadow Crusade destroyed a hundred of the outer planets while leaving the core systems relatively untouched. I think that is because Kor Phaeron was supposed to use the Furious Abyss to annihilate Macragge and the core worlds alongside a smaller WB fleet. However, since the Furious Abyss was destroyed, the smaller fleet ultimately didn't succeed in its task.

 

Going off of HH: Tempest and Battle for the Abyss

[Leif Bearclaw]

And yet Betrayer has the Traitors destroying Armatura, described as THE provisioning/war world of Ultramar. That's not an 'outer planet', that's arguably far more vital that Prandium, Iax or several of the classic 40k Ultramar worlds. Granted I'm not sure they ever address the subject of shipyards there, and I haven't read the Imperium Secundus stuff, but I struggle with the idea that they had that level of shipbuilding at their disposal post Shadow Crusade. Especially in light of their fleet dispositions/strength as outlined in Tempest. Sadly, this really seems to be yet another example of the lack of reliable editing that so often blights GW publications.

[Ascanius]

'Still the largest of any Legion' doesn't really suggest building up beyond the fleets of their peers either to me. Rather it seems to be clearly stating that the Ultras have always had, and still retain, the largest fleet, despite the losses at Calth.

 

In the context of Ruinstorm, though?

[Leif Bearclaw]

Yes. The reference to Calth, plus the 'still', makes it pretty clear cut imo. If they meant 'largest fleet of those Legions present', then it could've/should've been worded far more carefully, avoiding absolutes like 'bigger than any Legion'.

 

For example. What if, in Fulgrim, while Ferrus Manus was planning Istvaan he'd told Vulkan and Corax "the Iron Hands will be the vanguard of the assault, as my Legion has more troops than any other". I don't think it's reasonable to assume that would refer to only those Legions present. The only reason you'd think that is because of additional fluff knowledge, trying to mesh the published statement with the 'known' fact that the Ultras were the largest Legion by manpower. If a new reader read that passage, I think they would naturally assume it referred to the entire Legiones Astartes.

[DogWelder]

And yet Betrayer has the Traitors destroying Armatura, described as THE provisioning/war world of Ultramar. That's not an 'outer planet', that's arguably far more vital that Prandium, Iax or several of the classic 40k Ultramar worlds. Granted I'm not sure they ever address the subject of shipyards there, and I haven't read the Imperium Secundus stuff, but I struggle with the idea that they had that level of shipbuilding at their disposal post Shadow Crusade. Especially in light of their fleet dispositions/strength as outlined in Tempest. Sadly, this really seems to be yet another example of the lack of reliable editing that so often blights GW publications.

 

Quite right. I would have liked more detail on the damage caused by the Shadow Crusade. In Betrayar it makes it seem like Armatura was a big deal but in the following Ultramarine short stories it makes it seem like the traitors were driven off without too much damage being done. 

 

There is quite a bit of inconsistency on this issue. Perhaps it can be owed to the difference in how the characters perceived it?

Edited October 16, 2017 by DogWelder

[b1soul]

Fleet size should be measured by tonnage correct? 

 

It would be strange to say that the Ultramarines have the largest fleet because they have a very large number of small, low-ton ships (with a low combined tonnage). I don't think that's what Annandale meant in Ruinstorm. I think he messed up. 

 

EDIT: If you interpret "any legion" as "any legion [present]", it's still a bit off. The Shadow Crusade absolutely wrecked the UM fleet and their ship-building infrastructure. I might be missing something...I don't get how the DA and BA would have smaller fleets than the UM

Edited October 17, 2017 by b1soul

[carlisimo]

Is this what happens when there isn't a Laurie Goulding-type editor present?

[Marshal Rohr]

I'm telling you guys, it's meant to be the largest among the three fleets present. There's no way Guilliman would be able to know if the Fists, Scars, or Wolves had lost significant portions of heir fleet. The Fists lost a third at Phall, but that would still be a thousand ships remaining around Terra. The Ultras couldn't pressgang or retrofit enough ships to match that with the damage done during the Shadow Crusade.

[Runefyre]

Just for discussion (I'm not super knowledgeable on this topic):

 

In the Burning of Prospero boxed game fluff pamphlet, it describes the Space Wolves fleet as being "amongst the largest of the legiones astartes".

[Ascanius]

For example. What if, in Fulgrim, while Ferrus Manus was planning Istvaan he'd told Vulkan and Corax "the Iron Hands will be the vanguard of the assault, as my Legion has more troops than any other". I don't think it's reasonable to assume that would refer to only those Legions present.

 

That's exactly what I'd assume, actually. If three hobbyists were comparing their collections, and one said, "I think I have the most models," would you assume they meant they own the most models of any hobbyist ever?

 

Your Ferrus example is about the reason why his Legion should be the vanguard, too, so it makes even more sense that the comparison's only restricted to those Legions which might be involved. The XIII Legion being bigger doesn't factor into a discussion of why the X Legion should lead the attack on Isstvan V, you know?

 

It seems to me that the Ruinstorm example is similar.

 

 

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Either it makes sense in context or it's an editorial oversight - could be either.

 

I noticed that Guy Haley's Perturabo: The Hammer of Olympia kills off a Legionary named Bardan in Chapter 6 - cut in half by a hrud, his armour and bones flaking to dust - but he's alive for the punishment of Olympia in Chapter 14 . . . so editorial oversight does happen.

[carlisimo]

I'm telling you guys, it's meant to be the largest among the three fleets present. There's no way Guilliman would be able to know if the Fists, Scars, or Wolves had lost significant portions of heir fleet. The Fists lost a third at Phall, but that would still be a thousand ships remaining around Terra. The Ultras couldn't pressgang or retrofit enough ships to match that with the damage done during the Shadow Crusade.

 

That works well for:

 

“By applying the lesson I have learned at Episimos and Davin. Your fleet is the largest. I will attack their bastions, Roboute. I will destroy their home worlds. ”

 

But not for:

“For Calth!’ went the cry. The Ultramarines fleet had been reduced by that betrayal, yet it was still the largest of any Legion. Many of the ships that had survived that day were present now. ”

 

[Marshal Rohr]

Ah, then that's just Annandale being wrong.

[DogWelder]

Since the reference appeared twice in the book, I don't think it was due to editorial oversight.

 

In the Beast Arises series, weren't they able to whip up a fleet of hundreds of vessels in a matter of weeks/days when the Senatorum Imperialus decided to press-gang ever Rogue Trader and trade/commerce vessel into military service?

 

Perhaps the Ultramarines did the same. Since the Pharos beacon was the only kind of navigational marker in the Eastern half of the galaxy cut off by the Ruinstorm, literally all civilian and Imperial Army vessels probably headed for Macragge. There, they would have likely been commissioned into the depleted 13th Legion fleet. 

[D3L]

it's definitely due to editorial oversight being lacking, a common problem throughout the HH series