Feral_80 Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 I think you worry too much. Yes, it is great to limit the amount of combos/unfluffy stuff in your army, and by all means that is the way I play, amd I absolutely despise any attempt to bend rules, exploit loopholes, or just play an army that makes no sense (hello, Guilliman+conscripts). Play true to your army and your good taste, if you have one. But this does not mean that we need to keep a checklist of 'don'ts' in order to feel relaxed when playing. Nobody used us that courtesy until an edition ago. Do not believe to the whine: when most people will actually learn to play 8th, eventually they'll give up this obsession against AM. It seems to me to be already fading a bit as more codexes come out and show that everything out there is powerful, but nothing is overpowered. Just look at the other codexes so far: Marines and Chaos win as many (if not more) tournaments as AM, so they should just shut up. Death Guard is great and as thematic as AM, very funny and powerful. The only ones who could complain of their codex are AdMech (it is limited and uninspired, and no FW), but they seem to be quite positive anyway, possibly also thanks to the expectation of Fires of Cyraxis. Most of the whiners are those who have yet to get that 8th plays differently from 7th. Also, I cannot prove it but I have a very strong impression that a major part of the tears comes from the people that found out that their autowin button is not working anymore: former 7th top-tier armies such as Eldar, Tau, Daemons, etc. I know several people who own no other army but one of this, and played from the 6th or 7th having developed a genuinely *altered* perception of 40k. Some are showing quite clearly now that they do not find it comfortable to play under one of the fundaments of 8th: that it takes efforts, thinking, tactical play, and even some skills to win, after all. Guardsman Bob 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tychobi Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Whining about Guard just spotlights ignorance. File the information away under "folks who are not so bright" and move on. Guard is not op. Forgeworld is op. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchverr Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) Whining about Guard just spotlights ignorance. File the information away under "folks who are not so bright" and move on. Guard is not op. Forgeworld is op. Hey Hey.... Krieg lives matter too. Not all FW is OP, as the poor Kriegers of the last few editions have shown lol. Edited October 21, 2017 by Mitchverr iceman2160 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Yeah Forge World isn't OP mate. Entire Tau lineup is mostly trash, for example. I mean they only just fixed a rules issue where the Tigershark couldn't legally fire its Railcannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Whining about Guard just spotlights ignorance. File the information away under "folks who are not so bright" and move on. Guard is not op. Forgeworld is op. I love the irony of deriding the intelligence of others and following up with an unintelligent statement. Brilliant. DreamIsCollapsing, Azekai, Khornestar and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardsman Bob Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Whining about Guard just spotlights ignorance. File the information away under "folks who are not so bright" and move on. Guard is not op. Forgeworld is op. I love the irony of deriding the intelligence of others and following up with an unintelligent statement. Brilliant.While I agree Tychobi had no business putting down people who are FW aligned his point about FW isn’t without merit. Consider the case of the pre AM Codex when FW had the Vulture. There is no justification for the power difference between the Vulture and the Index Punisher. Point saving for Earthshakers by ditching the tracks has been a thing since 3rd. I’d love a Macharius Vulcan but I am not going through GW. My position on it has always been some things from FW are always going to have special advantages. Not because they are trying to go OP for sales but because game development from Gamesworkshop has historically been pretty weak. Too much money on lawyers and not enough on devs. Halfpint100 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tirak Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 The Index Punisher and the Vulture Punisher are the exact same. Vultures could equip a Twin Linked Punisher. When the change to 8th edition happened, all Twin Linked weapons (except a few notable exceptions) had their number of shots doubled as well as their points when compared to the non twin linked version. The Punisher Vulture follows Index rules to the letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 As above, plus the most "broken" Index items seem to be limited to a few Chaos units, like their rapiers vs. the Imperial version, or the Contemptors/Leviathans with brutal cannons, or even giant mutants. Even in these "broken" cases, though, they are at most better than average. As with the previous edition, the most over the top and broken things will come out of the studio, not Forge World. The platform earthshaker has an interesting balance with the Chimera, having the potential vulnerability of the crew to account for. The earthshaker platform is certainly annoying with its cheapness and "ignore melee" rules, but at least until its FAQ'd it doesn't count as a vehicle and thus does not benefit from doctrines or stratagems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tychobi Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Whining about Guard just spotlights ignorance. File the information away under "folks who are not so bright" and move on. Guard is not op. Forgeworld is op. I love the irony of deriding the intelligence of others and following up with an unintelligent statement. Bri Whining about Guard just spotlights ignorance. File the information away under "folks who are not so bright" and move on. Guard is not op. Forgeworld is op.I love the irony of deriding the intelligence of others and following up with an unintelligent statement. Brilliant.While I agree Tychobi had no business putting down people who are FW aligned his point about FW isn’t without merit. Consider the case of the pre AM Codex when FW had the Vulture. There is no justification for the power difference between the Vulture and the Index Punisher. Point saving for Earthshakers by ditching the tracks has been a thing since 3rd. I’d love a Macharius Vulcan but I am not going through GW. My position on it has always been some things from FW are always going to have special advantages. Not because they are trying to go OP for sales but because game development from Gamesworkshop has historically been pretty weak. Too much money on lawyers and not enough on devs. Who did I put down? Special advantages = Over Powered so I think we are saying the same thing. Withershadow seems to be the kind of person who feels that Maleific Lords at 30 points are not an issue or the many many other inconsistencies of forge world rules. I did not mean that any and all rules out of forge world are broken. But enough are that defending their rules as not overpowered allows me to put Withershadow in my not so inconsiderable "file that shall not be named". Brilliant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tirak Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Whining about Guard just spotlights ignorance. File the information away under "folks who are not so bright" and move on. Guard is not op. Forgeworld is op. I love the irony of deriding the intelligence of others and following up with an unintelligent statement. Bri Whining about Guard just spotlights ignorance. File the information away under "folks who are not so bright" and move on. Guard is not op. Forgeworld is op.I love the irony of deriding the intelligence of others and following up with an unintelligent statement. Brilliant.While I agree Tychobi had no business putting down people who are FW aligned his point about FW isn’t without merit. Consider the case of the pre AM Codex when FW had the Vulture. There is no justification for the power difference between the Vulture and the Index Punisher. Point saving for Earthshakers by ditching the tracks has been a thing since 3rd. I’d love a Macharius Vulcan but I am not going through GW. My position on it has always been some things from FW are always going to have special advantages. Not because they are trying to go OP for sales but because game development from Gamesworkshop has historically been pretty weak. Too much money on lawyers and not enough on devs. Who did I put down? Special advantages = Over Powered so I think we are saying the same thing. Withershadow seems to be the kind of person who feels that Maleific Lords at 30 points are not an issue or the many many other inconsistencies of forge world rules. I did not mean that any and all rules out of forge world are broken. But enough are that defending their rules as not overpowered allows me to put Withershadow in my not so inconsiderable "file that shall not be named". Brilliant Everyone gets a forgeworld book eventually mate. It's not a 'special advantage' since everyone gets their own stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guardsman Bob Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Whining about Guard just spotlights ignorance. File the information away under "folks who are not so bright" and move on. Guard is not op. Forgeworld is op. I love the irony of deriding the intelligence of others and following up with an unintelligent statement. Bri Whining about Guard just spotlights ignorance. File the information away under "folks who are not so bright" and move on. Guard is not op. Forgeworld is op. I love the irony of deriding the intelligence of others and following up with an unintelligent statement. Brilliant.While I agree Tychobi had no business putting down people who are FW aligned his point about FW isn’t without merit. Consider the case of the pre AM Codex when FW had the Vulture. There is no justification for the power difference between the Vulture and the Index Punisher. Point saving for Earthshakers by ditching the tracks has been a thing since 3rd. I’d love a Macharius Vulcan but I am not going through GW.My position on it has always been some things from FW are always going to have special advantages. Not because they are trying to go OP for sales but because game development from Gamesworkshop has historically been pretty weak. Too much money on lawyers and not enough on devs. Who did I put down? Special advantages = Over Powered so I think we are saying the same thing. Withershadow seems to be the kind of person who feels that Maleific Lords at 30 points are not an issue or the many many other inconsistencies of forge world rules. I did not mean that any and all rules out of forge world are broken. But enough are that defending their rules as not overpowered allows me to put Withershadow in my not so inconsiderable "file that shall not be named". Brilliant;) Declaring FW as being OP is tantamount to saying everyone playing either of the FW IG armies as win at all cost players. That’s going to seriously piss some of your forum compatriots. Those are the people you put down. I can agree with using a simplied statement in your first post. People do not like nuanced discussions. Clear and bold is what seems to get response or position. It just feels tragic. Clarifying that you didn’t mean ALL of FW is a good move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 To be fair, it's pretty clear Forge World were understaffed and had little time to prepare the Indexes. The Imperial Armour books were generally of great quality but the Indexes were rushed and of poor quality. Plus I think picking specific units is a bit unfair. Malefic Lords are OP but also unable to win any meaningful games due to lack of a decent army around them and not having any real special rules to compensate. I mean I only run a few of my FW models now because they're mostly borked. Guardsman Bob 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major_Gilbear Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Hmm, whilst it's no secret that FW stuff is all over the place in terms of balance, maybe such FW-specific debate deserves it's own thread? That way, that this one can remain soaked in the delicious salty tears of those who oppose the Imperial Guard Astra Miliatrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarriorFish Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Please return to the topic at hand in the manner expected on the B&C, otherwise we may have to start removing posts. Thanks. Guardsman Bob, slowclinic and Major_Gilbear 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 How quickly the hate turns to schadenfreude. And I was hoping we could weather the storm until the Eldar book drops and siphons all the hatred like they do. Guardsman Bob 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNCenturion Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 Just direct those spewing hate to the new FAQ lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die4Emprah Posted October 24, 2017 Share Posted October 24, 2017 Yep, my group ( which are rather munchkin-ish) went insane with envious rage. After that FAQ, the demeanor changed to a "TOLD YOU SO!" feel. I'm still kind of laughing inside, because I was beating their tier 1 unpainted armies before all this, and I likely still will. duz_, Guardsman Bob and librisrouge 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnboardG1 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 I'm fully expecting the haters to still get pasted because the FAQ didn't stop guard doing what it does well. All it does is change your default bubblewrap to infantry squads. If you couldn't mow through 30 conscripts you won't get through 30 infantrymen. Morale immune conscripts was kind of dumb but you build to deal with that. They'll continue to fail to analyse their play and blame whatever they think is OP rather than their game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 The problem was 100+ Conscripts, not 30 of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henimann Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) It's been said, but I think what hate Guard players have had to deal with is because of the fact our codex is the current flavor of the month...once the rest of the codexes drop, we will be fine. Gilbear made a good point about this edition being the first major overhaul of the game since third edition; I entered the game then (right after the Armageddon Campaign ended), and I can tell that the mechanics as a whole have shifted - I could reasonably pick up a game of 4th through 7th reasonably well, 8th has required me to rethink things.. The indexes were, like the back of the BBB for 3rd, a stopgap; players whose armies are still Index-only seem to be at a disadvantage since their armies haven't been calibrated yet to the new edition. I think the codexes will end up being the new baseline for how armies are played in the future. I think the hate will dissipate as all armies are brought to the same level. Edited October 25, 2017 by Henimann Khornestar 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatBrannigan Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Hopefully Conscripts and Commissars now being pretty much useless stops the hate. Can't see that it makes the codex that much worse really but hey ho. I feel sorry for Guard players who have been playing a Conscript Horde army for a long time but hopefully they can make some adjustments to keep their armies playable. Add flags and Inquisitors perhaps. Hell, my Mordian Infantry are running around at LD9 most of the time. Not to shabby! I do not feel sorry or those people who have been buying boxes of Guard Infantry to make Conscripts to run with their Salamanders or with Gulliman or whatever. No-one seems to be moaning about Grinding Advance? When I told my opponent about the new updates before a game he thought I was joking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvih Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 I guess it's good that my AM force is somewhat haphazard, so maybe I'll avoid the hate if I actually get to playing again Not enough models for massed infantry for one, I have like.... 28 lasgun guys, 5 or 6 plasma guns, a couple other special weapons and of course heavy weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris521 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 No-one seems to be moaning about Grinding Advance? When I told my opponent about the new updates before a game he thought I was joking! I think a lot of this stopped we they announced that Eldar would get that as well. I suppose the less cynical interpretation of this would be that it's gearing up to be a standard rule for heavy tanks across all codices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Speaking from the receiving end, yes I am peeved because of Guard and Eldar, mostly because SM are trash. Does it make me salty? Certainly. But does it affect my communication with others? Heaven forbids. The main factor is not the army, but how the person with said army is acting. If some guy ends up with an OP army but play it like a regular human being and enjoy himself, great. If someone is a dick about it and only wants to crush others, well, he won't be much fun even without an op army. This whole issue says more about just how retarded humans can be, always looking for a souce for their perceived misfortune, not realizing that they are the poison. To all those at the receiving end of the hatred, take heart. Some people are jerks no matter what. If anything, this will show you what people to avoid in future ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchverr Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 The problem was 100+ Conscripts, not 30 of them. The funny thing is, depending on how the LD system works, you can still field conscripts which need to lose 6-12 models before being able to fail morale checks en mass of 100+ fairly simply depending on how yo ustack LD and if you use the D3 stratagem. So people whom used 1 or 2 units for fluff are hit in the you know what, but people whom game the system can still game the system. tychobi 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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