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Tactics, Traits and More


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11 replies to this topic

#1
Schlitzaf

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So this has come up now with Scions in IG Forum and something I have personally thought about in regards to my own Black Templars. By RAW certain unit and relic restrictions are tied to specific keywords not to Traits.

A Black Templars via their Keyword gain access to Crusader Squads, Cenos, EC, Helberct, Grimaldus, WT, and Crusader’s Helm. They lose access to Librarians.

Tempestus via their keyword gain access to their special units (Tempestus Scions (Normal and Command), Prime, and Taurox Prime), Order, WT and Relic while lose access to everything else.

However DIY Chapters and DIY Regiments can choose any doctrine or tactic to best represent their army. They do not however gain access or gain the Keyword of the associated Tactic or Doctrine (hence by RAW I cannot include Seth and Dante in my DIY Chapter unless my Keyword is mechanical Flesh Tearer Or Blood Angel. Then it’s ones or the other).

So the question I am asking;
1) If I make DIY Joe’s Marines and choose BT Tactic. Can I use Librarians?
2) By association can I choose DIY Joe’s Gaurdsman and give it the Scion Regiment Trait. Despite otherwise said normal Units not having access to said Trait.
PEbafT7.png?1http://www.bolterand...althus-crusade/
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#2
Toomanyprojects

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1) I would say yes, if you are taking the advantage of the black templars then you have to take their disadvantages as well. As the DIY keyowrd is essentially replacing the BT keywords directly, i'd say that all advantages and disadvantages are carried over. Doesn't stop you including a librarian from another chapter ina  battle forged army though

 

2) very much the same. As long as the model is played using the stats, points and rules of a scion then it can have the keyword. Just make sure your opponent knows before you play them, as keyword trickery will turn you into that guy


++++ The Rusted - Nurgle Marines & Chaos Workbench ++++

 

++++ The Coalition - Imperial Army Workbench ++++

 

I made it, so I get to do anything I like with it yes.gif


#3
Schlitzaf

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In this scenario describe, the DIY regiments DO NOT have access to anything beside the Strategem and Tactic/Doctrine. The speciality units are tied to Keyword. If I use DIY Keyword I cannot use the speciality units, Relic or Warlord Trait associated the Keyword. By extension the restrictions on other units you normally lose access too (Librarians for Black Templars and non-Scions Units for Scion) should also be lifted.

My core question I suppose was that an intended interaction? By extension are Tactics/Doctrines linked to the restriction of their associated OG Keyword

Edited by Schlitzaf, 19 October 2017 - 03:18 PM.

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#4
Toasterfree

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they addressed this in an FAQ I believe.


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#5
Schlitzaf

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.....? There is the FAQ say you cannot have Joe Marines for (Regiment) and Joe Marines for (Chapter) to enable buffs that check for (Chapter) to be enabled by something like (Regiment).

There isn’t a faq for Joe Marine using the BT Chapter Tactic, that would disallow the use of Librarians. The latter (Black Templar armies not being allowed to Librarians) is keyed off Keyword Black Templars. You explicitly do not gain the Keyword of the Chapter you are using your Tactic from if you are a successor or DIY Chapter. (Hence why Crimson Fists cannot include Lysander and vice versa).
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#6
Eddie Orlock

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... So the question I am asking;
1) If I make DIY Joe’s Marines and choose BT Tactic. Can I use Librarians?

Seems reasonable. It's a fuzzy feeling part of the current rules that somethings are expressly tied to the names, but others are tied to the archetypes they represent.

2) By association can I choose DIY Joe’s Gaurdsman and give it the Scion Regiment Trait. Despite otherwise said normal Units not having access to said Trait.

Again, this seems to mechanically work, but it would be just the trait.
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#7
Roderikum

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I totally agree with Toomany. When you choose an official doctrine for your DIY chapter you gain it's advantages and flaws. They're linked.
That means that, for the game mechanics purpouse, you can take an emperor's Champion and crusaders squads in a BT sucessor chapter, but you can't take a Witch (I meant librarian) and give him your chapter keyword as It would stand against the game mechanics.
You could even use your DIY Higest Marshall counting as Helberetch without any problem, as he would be within the game mechanics.
Don't forget that the only thing that would differ your DIY army from a BT one (rulewise) are the colours hoy painted you're little plastic soldiers.
In adittion, as a BT player, don't forget to abhor the Witch!!
IMHO...

#8
Schlitzaf

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Actually a BT Successor cannot take Crusader Squads. Crusader Squads are tied to the BT Keyword. Likewise with Cenobytes, EChampion etc. A successor Chapter does not gain the OG Chapter Keywords. Hence why Blood Angel Successors DIY chapters by RAW cannot use Dante or Seth
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#9
Roderikum

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Frankly, I don't really get what do you want to do with your chapter and how do you want to depict It un the battlefield, but I think that you're overcomplicating this.
What I want you to understand IS that names are not relevant here, but mechanics. If you want to use any Chapter Tactic yo depict your chapter, use It. You will DO have to treat your DIY chapter name (keyword) as if It were Black Templars' one. Because that is no CT with your DIY chapter name and no rule associated with It. That's why you're choosing a chapter Tactic from the official ones.
So, if you choose a CT, you take both pros and cons and anything related to it. That's all. Anything with BT keyword Will be avilable to you, but named differently.

Taking your example: Dante is someone unique in the whole setting. He Will only be chapter master of the BA. But in a DIY chapter that uses BA Codex, you could use Dante's rules (or Seth's ones) to represent Chapter Máster Jimbo. Then you'll need a model that represents clearly the rules you're using. He IS not Dante any more, but Jimbo. But they function in the same way.

Edited by Roderikum, 21 October 2017 - 02:13 AM.


#10
Schlitzaf

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I play Black Templars and always will. I will never take Librarians. This is in part thought experiment and legitimate question. So now we got that moved on.

That isn’t how the rules work. Certain restrictions and abilities are attached to Keywords. Black Templar Chapter cannot take Librarians.

If you are DIY Chapter that believes it’s best represented flavorfully by an aggressive chapter tactic like Reroll Charge you choose the BT Tactic. However you do not have the Black Templar Keyword.

You do not gain the Black Templar Keyword.
If you are a DIY Chapter you have the DIY Chapter Keyword. The only reason BA and DA Successors gain access to BA unique units is because there is a specific passage in the Index that allows those units to be taken by successor chapters.

By RAW you cannot take Dante as BA Successor Chapter. Because Dante has the Blood Angel Keyword. Currently there is no reason for a BA player not to be Flesh Tearers or Blood Angel Keyword even if their a successor for that reason. In part because a “DIY Successor” does not have access to Dante or other named character. They only has access to the the UU of Blood Angels because the blurb says they do.

Furthermore nothing in the Codex Space Marines or Imperium 1 Index is worded that way for Black Templar or other Codex Marines that would apply army-wide list building construction or limitations to a DIY Chapter choosing the BT Chapter Tactics. However a DIY Chapter using BT Tactics wouldn’t gain the benefits of the BT Keyword, such as a relic, warlord trait or strategem, and the UU.

Even as I argue this I find it weird. If I believed it whole-heartedly I wouldn’t find it an interesting thought experiment. Sense it works that way by RAW. But the issue is, for me is it meant to be RAI. I think the more important question, sense BT cannot be the only aggressive Crusading Chapter in the Imperium that reroll charges would be reasonable for.

The reverse being that is precisely the case, only Black Templars have the fanatical devotion on par Khorne Fanatic and Boy Squad excitement. And that you cannot functionally choose BT Tactic for a Successor Chapter Tactic. Because you lose access to Librarians and gain nothing in return.

Sense you do not gain the Keyword Black Templar, you do not gain access to Helberct, Grimaldus, Cenobytes, Emperor’s Champion or the Crusader Squad. Or the Crusader’s Helm.

Successor Chapters do not gain the Keyword associated and as such access to the relics/warlord Trait of their parent Chapter. And because the limitation on Chapter Units to Keyword, is not waived like in the Index for DA or BA, unique units and special characters are not applicable for use by Successor Chapters.

If all the above is true why would list restrictions tied to BT Keyword also convey to a successor Chapter when nothing else does.*

*the biggest argument against is that any BT Successors are actually IF Successors. Thus the BT Tactic and baggage cannot be chosen for DIY chapters
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#11
Eddie Orlock

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You will DO have to treat your DIY chapter name (keyword) as if It were Black Templars' one.

And I want you to understand that 'you' is a dangerously personal word around here and that cases are preferentially made both dispassionately and with clear citations to support them.

*ahem*

The quoted sentence contradicts codex: marines, pg. 130 grants broad permission to replace the angle braced word with one of your choosing, not limited to any list. pg. 195 directs us in cases where there is no clearly published lineage to select and adopt the tactics that best represent the fighting style. This is to say, DIY chapters can quite cheerfully adopt 'Righteous Zeal' while not mechanically having the 'Black Templar' keyword, just a version of <chapter>.

There was a FAQ released that essentially barred us from founding the 'Catachan' chapter, but this is extremely tangential to the topic. I mention it to point out that current doctrine is not that we're required to pick from a limited list, but rather that we're allowed any such word provided it's not already reserved. It wouldn't of even been a question if we were limited to a prescribed list.

As some more general guidance, in the OR forum we're very seldom concerned with 'why' someone might want to do something, only if they can. We have dozens of other forums on the B&C that are more appropriate venues for why. This is not one of them.
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#12
Eddie Orlock

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Yeah. I've read too many 'you's in the last few posts. I'm going to shut this down for a weekend so we can all go back to our corners, talk to our trainer, wipe the sweat from our brows, take some deep breaths, and relax.

Remember, address the argument, not the poster.

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"Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low."
- Wallace Sayre

The continued future of the Bolter and Chainsword is in your hands.




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