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Decimator or Contemptor?


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#1
Fhanados

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So I've been in need of some kind of ranged support element for my Chaos armies for a long time now. I know predators are good, but I love big stompy robots and frankly my Forgefiends have been massive disappointments this edition so far. I've had my eye on the IA:Chaos index since its release, particularly on aforementioned stompy robots. Now I have my fair share of close to mid range support covered by Bloat Drones and Melta/Fist Helbrutes so what I'm really after is something that packs a bit more of a ranged punch, while being able to soak up some early-game damage.

 

I love the Leviathan on paper but it's a bit too many points for my liking. Similar deal with the Deredeo, although I'm not overly keen on the model so that's at the bottom of my Forgeworld Robot Shopping List. So I have it narrowed down to the Contemptor or the Decimator, but I really can't decide which.

 

Contemptor starts off stronger, has a better invuln in assault and benefits from Legion traits. But it's more points, has a degrading statline, and only heals wounds if it kills things in combat and can't be repaired by Warpsmiths or Helwrights.

 

Decimator has a few less wounds and lower BS, but it is cheaper, doesn't lose stats as it takes damage, and has the same invuln against shooting. It also automatically heals one wound per turn and can be repaired.

 

For context I use Death Guard, Black Legion or Renegade Legion tactics, normally very infantry heavy armies (lots of power armour - I own far too may Chaos Space Marine minis to not use them!) that I backed up with Helbrutes, Forgefiends and a Heldrake or a bucketload of Obliterators in 7th. For weapons options I intend on using either dual Butcher Cannon or dual C-Beam Cannon. I feel that either of these weapons will plug a few weaknesses in my usual lists.

 

So which do you use or prefer?



#2
the jeske

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yeah, well as no things should be run as ones, it would probably be a good thing to either one of each. When you say you play infantry heavy DG and renegades, you mean MW and smite spam lists. Or are you actually using real csm and DG models in those lists that move on foot?


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#3
totgeboren

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My Decimator with dual c-beams was a real beast the one game I tried him out. The only real negative is that he more or less needs the Daemonforge stratagem to function properly. It's just two hit rolls and two wound rolls, so you have around a 30% chance of doing no damage. With Daemonforge that drops to something like 4%, so a huge improvement.

C-beams also leads to him being immobile, so easy to avoid if you play with terrain, which was an issue for me.

 

Haven't had time to try out my Contemptor, but he feel much more suitable for front line duty, with a classic loadout of shooty+cc weapons (due to him healing in cc).


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#4
Fhanados

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yeah, well as no things should be run as ones, it would probably be a good thing to either one of each. When you say you play infantry heavy DG and renegades, you mean MW and smite spam lists. Or are you actually using real csm and DG models in those lists that move on foot?

 

By "Renegades" I mean the "Renegade Chapter" Legion Trait. My vanilla marines are being stripped down and repainted and it's come down to either renegade or Black Legion. Trying them on for size before I go all in. I know Alpha Legion is awesome but there's already a fair few AL players in my area.

 

I am the second kind of person - the poor fool trying to make power armour on foot work! I know it's not competitive and usually drop most of the Power Armour in my lists for Poxwalkers and Cultists for anything competitive. I'm finding it tricky to work out the meta around here because I don't get many games in these days so I'm pretty happy to settle with "cruddy troops, decent support".

 

Totally agree with you about running pairs though.

 

 

My Decimator with dual c-beams was a real beast the one game I tried him out. The only real negative is that he more or less needs the Daemonforge stratagem to function properly. It's just two hit rolls and two wound rolls, so you have around a 30% chance of doing no damage. With Daemonforge that drops to something like 4%, so a huge improvement.

C-beams also leads to him being immobile, so easy to avoid if you play with terrain, which was an issue for me.

 

Haven't had time to try out my Contemptor, but he feel much more suitable for front line duty, with a classic loadout of shooty+cc weapons (due to him healing in cc).

 

The rerolls from Daemonforge are pretty awesome. I feel like if I ran 2 Decimators though one would always be running half full because of the reliance on the stratagem. Good to hear it works well though! Maybe one of each as Jeske suggested would be the best of both worlds.

 

I have one Fist/Plasma contemptor already that I used to use as a Helbrute Champion back in 7th with that odd 5-brute formation. I've found the plasma cannon (of both the Helbrute and Ectoplasma varieties) so terribly underwhelming in 8th I haven't bothered trying to use it as an actual Contemptor.

 


Edited by Fhanados, 20 October 2017 - 06:23 AM.


#5
Rodrick

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i use two contemptors, its a tricky business, on paper they are insanely good (and they are)

 but they cost a :cuss load of points.

 

i play as  world eater so i use them as a robust support fire base,  dual butcher cannon, 

 

why dual butcher cannon instad kheres patter AC,  mostly bc storm Ravens, wounding on 3+  and doing 2 damage each its superior

 

wounding its more important than hitting imho

 

Contemptors as a close combat unit its complicated, with 9 inch move and no deepstrike  its hard to get them into combat

 

my two cents



#6
Res Ipsa Loquitur

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I've never used either but would go with a Decimator, because Contemptors look like they ate all the pies.


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#7
Zodd1888

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The benefit of running two with heavy weapons is they move on alternate turns allowing full fire effect on the one with Strategem active.

#8
Jamesb_05

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Why can't the contemptor be healed by warpsmiths or hellwrights?

#9
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I thought it turned out the Strategem was directed at actual Helbrutes?

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#10
Zodd1888

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I thought it turned out the Strategem was directed at actual Helbrutes?

Only partial read through, my bad. Saw someone say one Helbrute and I don't mind using 2. Guess it was referring to FW lol.

I hadmeant this in reference to Las/Missle duo Helbrutes.

Edited by Zodd1888, 20 October 2017 - 08:54 PM.

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#11
Plaguecaster

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Why can't the contemptor be healed by warpsmiths or hellwrights?

Cause FW stupidly FAQed the Machina Malefica rule so anything with it (including all FW dreads) cannot regain lost wounds by any other means apart from in combat through the Machina malefica rule

Edited by Plaguecaster, 21 October 2017 - 02:44 AM.

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#12
Iron Skull Mask

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I'd go for the Decimator. You want him shooty? You said it yourself: he has the better invul. for ranged combat and automatically heals each turn. He is cheaper, has good weapon options and he's a daemon engine, so he profits from their stratagem.


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#13
Res Ipsa Loquitur

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They actually named a rule 'Machina Malefica'?

 

I guess everyone 'phones it in sometimes.


"I have of late - but wherefore I know not - lost all my mirth, forgone all custom of exercises; and indeed it goes so heavily with my disposition that this goodly frame, the earth, seems to me a sterile promontory; this most excellent canopy, the air, look you, this brave o'erhanging firmament, this majestical roof fretted with golden fire, why, it appears no other thing to me than a foul and pestilential congregation of vapours. What a piece of work is a man! how noble in reason! how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world! the paragon of animals! And yet to me, what is this quintessence of dust? man delights not me: no, nor woman neither. Nor woman neither."

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#14
McGibs

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Given the decimator's relative fragility (it's only marginally tougher than a dread) dual storm lasers make for a really good infantry shredder at only 140ish points (same as a dread).

10 str6 AP-2 shots is nothing to sneeze at, and they're assault weapons to boot, which is rare for vehicles. The more esoteric weapons are all too expensive for the platform, in my opinion. Better to splurge and put them on a Leviathan or Deredeo.


Edited by McGibs, 21 October 2017 - 03:39 PM.

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#15
Daionosis

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Sorry for the threadomancy, but nobody likes the decimators with dual petards? 4D3 mortal wounds? The only reason I havent got them in my army yet is they cost a boatload of FW money..



#16
sfPanzer

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Shooting 4d3 mortal wounds with BS3+ is not bad, but is it really 210p worth? A lot of his points go into stats that are pretty useless for a unit that's supposed to shoot. Like the WS3+ S7 A5 and a special rule that gives him +1 attack when equipped with two melee weapons.


Edited by sfPanzer, 25 November 2017 - 07:45 PM.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#17
The Blood Raven

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My thoughts. I run as Thousand Sons so haven’t yet used Codex combos. My group is infantry heavy with primarily old school transports and tanks. Don’t see flyers, super heavies, or lords of war often.

Chaos Decimator with dual butcher cannons:
- Against Codex Ultramarines, dead before turn two. Did take out one of those small flyers.
- Against Alpha Legion, dead in turn one. Whiffed on shooting a CSM squad.
- Against Alpha Legion, dead in turn two. Put 4 wounds on a rhino.

Observation: regeneration of a wound and no stat degradation don’t matter if you only get one round of shooting.

Helbrute with plasma cannon and helbrute with MM against the same opponents:
- Never kill anything in shooting phase, even if fire frenzy happens.
- Reach Fight phase with 1-2 wounds then punch 2-4 marines for two phases before dying.

On the bench are two more decimators. One with soul burner, one with conversion beamer on the back burner is a contempt or with dual auto cannons.

I hope you find this helpful.

#18
Ishagu

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My thoughts. I run as Thousand Sons so haven’t yet used Codex combos. My group is infantry heavy with primarily old school transports and tanks. Don’t see flyers, super heavies, or lords of war often.

Chaos Decimator with dual butcher cannons:
- Against Codex Ultramarines, dead before turn two. Did take out one of those small flyers.
- Against Alpha Legion, dead in turn one. Whiffed on shooting a CSM squad.
- Against Alpha Legion, dead in turn two. Put 4 wounds on a rhino.

Observation: regeneration of a wound and no stat degradation don’t matter if you only get one round of shooting.

Helbrute with plasma cannon and helbrute with MM against the same opponents:
- Never kill anything in shooting phase, even if fire frenzy happens.
- Reach Fight phase with 1-2 wounds then punch 2-4 marines for two phases before dying.

On the bench are two more decimators. One with soul burner, one with conversion beamer on the back burner is a contempt or with dual auto cannons.

I hope you find this helpful.


You need Redundancy my friend. You can't just take one unit because it will be focuded on. You gotta run 2 or 3 Decimators.

If you want to assault with Hellbrutes you need multiples of those too. Imagine what I'd do if I see a strong cc unit approaching my lines? I'll make sure it doesn't get there.
...but if I had to deal with 3 simultaneously? That's a different story.

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#19
norngahl

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I Play 3 Decimators on Hard games with a Lord in the middle. They are goddamn insane to be honest.

Put them in Cover before the first round. Move them out with 9", shoot 24" with double Soulburner Petards and blast any thing you want to hell with around 24 mortal wounds. Of course you got to play an agressive List with multiple threats that put pressure on the enemy (deepstrikers, slaanesh oblits especially) other wise they will be :cuss to pieces in return.

24 mortal wounds a round with 33" range is just mean. Still, they are Paperunits and you have a lot of Front units to compensate their loss if the enemy targets them first.

#20
sfPanzer

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I Play 3 Decimators on Hard games with a Lord in the middle. They are goddamn insane to be honest.

Put them in Cover before the first round. Move them out with 9", shoot 24" with double Soulburner Petards and blast any thing you want to hell with around 24 mortal wounds. Of course you got to play an agressive List with multiple threats that put pressure on the enemy (deepstrikers, slaanesh oblits especially) other wise they will be censored.gif to pieces in return.

24 mortal wounds a round with 33" range is just mean. Still, they are Paperunits and you have a lot of Front units to compensate their loss if the enemy targets them first.

An average of 24 shots that cause mortal wounds. You still have to hit on a 3+ or worse. So more like 16 mortal wounds and 8 misses (so about 4 mortal wounds on yourself)


Edited by sfPanzer, 25 November 2017 - 08:51 PM.

Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.


So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

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#21
Plaguecaster

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Well Contemptors got cheaper so are now only 13pts more than a decimator so for that difference I'd much rather take a Contemptor since they are more resilient, have better BS and better variety of weapons. I like Decimators but I'm usually only taking one battalion anyway so can't fit both especially playing with DG since it's quite elite heavy. Not a fan of the soul burners as even when I tried taking multiples they tend to slap a massive priority target on them during the first turn so they usually die pretty quick before they can even use the soul burners, if I was going to take one then dual butcher seems the better loadouts now especially since Butcher cannons are now 30pts instead of 45

Edited by Plaguecaster, 25 November 2017 - 08:43 PM.

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#22
Dallas Drake

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Well Contemptors got cheaper so are now only 13pts more than a decimator so for that difference I'd much rather take a Contemptor since they are more resilient, have better BS and better variety of weapons. I like Decimators but I'm usually only taking one battalion anyway so can't fit both especially playing with DG since it's quite elite heavy. Not a fan of the soul burners as even when I tried taking multiples they tend to slap a massive priority target on them during the first turn so they usually die pretty quick before they can even use the soul burners, if I was going to take one then dual butcher seems the better loadouts now especially since Butcher cannons are now 30pts instead of 45

 

Can you point me in the direction of these points changes please?


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#23
Plaguecaster

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Well Contemptors got cheaper so are now only 13pts more than a decimator so for that difference I'd much rather take a Contemptor since they are more resilient, have better BS and better variety of weapons. I like Decimators but I'm usually only taking one battalion anyway so can't fit both especially playing with DG since it's quite elite heavy. Not a fan of the soul burners as even when I tried taking multiples they tend to slap a massive priority target on them during the first turn so they usually die pretty quick before they can even use the soul burners, if I was going to take one then dual butcher seems the better loadouts now especially since Butcher cannons are now 30pts instead of 45

Can you point me in the direction of these points changes please?
Here you go, the 5th and 6th picture has all the FW stuff it's now 103pts without wargear now for Contemptors
https://www.instagra.../p/Bb5U_nflpU2/

Edited by Plaguecaster, 26 November 2017 - 10:07 AM.

Nurgle Abominarions: A Host of Decay Revived for 8th​.
UPDATED 29/07/17

#24
Dallas Drake

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Well Contemptors got cheaper so are now only 13pts more than a decimator so for that difference I'd much rather take a Contemptor since they are more resilient, have better BS and better variety of weapons. I like Decimators but I'm usually only taking one battalion anyway so can't fit both especially playing with DG since it's quite elite heavy. Not a fan of the soul burners as even when I tried taking multiples they tend to slap a massive priority target on them during the first turn so they usually die pretty quick before they can even use the soul burners, if I was going to take one then dual butcher seems the better loadouts now especially since Butcher cannons are now 30pts instead of 45

Can you point me in the direction of these points changes please?
Here you go, the 5th and 6th picture has all the FW stuff it's now 103pts without wargear now for Contemptors
https://www.instagra.../p/Bb5U_nflpU2/

 

 

Brilliant, thanks!



#25
Ghorgul

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I would say contemptor, they got significant boost with the price decreases. The point changes made dropping dual chainclaw contemptor with Dreadclaw about 100 pts. cheaper than earlier.

 

Example:

Hellforged contemptor

2x Chainclaw

2x Ectoplasma Blaster

Dreadclaw

Grand Total 330 pts

Earlier this was 448 pts

 

I think at 330 pts this is a very good deal and maybe even borderline competitive option. I'm still arguing contemptors should be used as melee monsters because of their lifegain rule.


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