Which Doctrine has the best tanks?

[CCE1981]

Specifically Leman Russes.

Looking through the Astra militarum book, right now I have to go with Catachan. Re-rolling one die each time a weapon has a random number of shots is insanely powerful. I have a 1,000 pt list with 5 Leman Russ tanks (1 Command Tank, 4 standard) that takes heavy advantage of that. Using the battlecannon and not moving lets you fire that thing twice re-rolling both shots, plus the two Plasma Cannons on the sponsons for an additional 2d3 re-rolable shots! I even gave the hull mount a heavy flamer!

Is this and end all-be-all list. No I think hordes would get through, but add that as a back line fire support detachment and it will be punishing. The other doctrines just don’t seem to give this kind of power.

 

Thoughts?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Catachan are very good. Cadians getting re-roll 1s and re-roll the dice for number of shots as an Order is also very good. For tanks with sponsons, Tallarn are good and the Order helps short-ranged tanks get into the fight. Vostroyan rules greatly help the Demolisher and Punisher, as well as Multimelta Sponsons and all other weapons to a smaller degree.

 

Mordians are a bit more situational, but the ability to Overwatch on 4s in combination with the Stratagem is potentially going to save that tank. I think only really Steel Legion don't benefit too much, Tempestus obviously don't really apply. 

 

Oh, Valhallans. Your tanks are going to be fighting fit until pretty much the last Wound.

[Galron]

With how I currently use them Catachan is the best for me. I use 4 LRs with only a Demolisher having heavy bolter sponsons(they are already on the model), 2 battle cannons, one executioner tank commander. I also use 2 Collossus, 2 Medusas, 2 heavy flamer sentinels, 4 double heavy flamer chimeras. So yeah mass number of random shots getting to reroll since I notoriously roll low on this. Wish that applied to infantry weapons too

[Mitchverr]

It all comes down to how you wish to play, personally I would say tallarn is my personal favorite for an armoured troop of Russes simply because you can move with them and not suffer any -1 to hit for heavy weapons sponsons/hull/hunter killer and have the order to move 6 inches and fire without it affecting grinding advance, add onto this the powerful ability to use the ambush doctrine to have tanks arrive on any table edge and you have a strong force that can effectively bully the enemy off of objectives, keep combat units and heroes at a distance and suprise people.

 

The ability to reroll Dx is great, but theres more weapons then just Dx weapons and for me, the only Dx weapon on the Russ of value is the BC which is generally fine at 3.5 average shots, I am much more a fan of consistant fire weapons like the punisher or heck, the twin lascannon/autocannon turrets possibly if they recieve some changes. When it comes to Dx weapons, I would rather use a medusa myself over others (bar BC) due to being significantly cheaper and again, the ability to ignore -1 for these when they move

[Vel'Cona]

I'd argue Valhallans simply because you get the most durable overall tanks.  Cadians are a distant second place for the accuracy/unique Order.

[duz_]

I'd say Valhallan and Tallarn tie for top, depending on play style

Then Catachan and Vostroyan

As sad as it is to say Mordian is probably the least useful from an overall perspective

[Guardsman Bob]

As sad as it is to say Mordian is probably the least useful from an overall perspective

Mark my words! With God as my witness I am going to make it work with Punishers and Exterminators.

[duz_]

Oh don't get me wrong I'm going to make the most of it too!

Objectively speaking the others are a lot easier to use and capitalise on 

 

Fortunately Mordian officers are master tacticians and will know how to use their RD to maximum efficiency! ;) 

[Guardsman Bob]

Dam right Duz! We *BLAM* Commissars when they are found wanting.

[wulfgar hammerfist]

I've had a lot of success with Tallarn. Being able to move and fire without penalty is great, not to mention the ability to outflank. I think it will help against armies like Ravenguard and the soon to be released pointy ears.

[KhorneHunter57x]

I'm a fan of Tallarn with Track Guards. Move+Fire, show up on a flank, an awesome order...and let's face it, tanks look best in a desert tan.

[Brother-Chaplain Kage]

Vostroyan tank command would disagree on sand being the best color on a Russ.

[WarriorFish]

You're both wrong - the best colours on a Russ is the blood of His enemies as you grind them into pulp ;)

 

Any doctrine that gives something to a Russ is good naturally, but I'd lean to the enhanced damage ones. Suffering less from damage is nice, but ideally you'll not be suffering much and the advantage in being more killy from Turn 1 will be an increasing factor to a game.

[Akrim]

I cant speak for other doctrines but i sampled Armageddon tonight in a vehicle heavy list. The -1 AP to 0 AP is pretty decent. I could see Valhallan being pretty good too in terms of keeping wounded tanks effective.

[Feral_80]

For Leman Russes I prefer offense to defense, so I'd say Catachan or Cadian are the best, in this order. Tallarn is closely behind, but you must have a good plan to use them and they do not synergize so well with different detachments (except with MilTempestus probably), so they require something of a more rigid army composition.

 

For superheavies, Valhallan is just great. You'll improve the offense by other means anyway (Trojan, etc.).

 

What disturbs me a bit is that Catachan and Cadian Leman Russes end up to be a bit *too* similar to each other, after all, because you naturally tend to give them the same equipments and buffs.

 

Cadians LRs reroll 1s if they don't move with their ability. Their tank order allows to reroll the d6 shots on a turret weapon. You are thus inclined to go battlecannon/executioner/demolisher, with plasma sponson which you can overcharge more safely.

 

Catachans LRs reroll the d6 on all their variable-fire weapons with their ability. The best generic tank order (and/or, just park them near the ubiquitous Harker and don't move away) allows them to reroll 1s. Again, you are thus inclined to go battlecannon/executioner/demolisher, with plasma sponson which you can either fire safely in normal mode, averaging a higher number of hits, or even overcharge more safely and still get an average more hits.

 

Overall, the results are pretty similar to each other. Almost identical. That's a bit annoying, as it would have been much more interesting if say Cadians benefitted weapons with a fixed number of shots. Unfortunately, the combination of similar bonuses and buffs, and the poor performance of all fixed-shots turrets, results in a very limited variability in the LRs we'll field. In my opinion, save for the occasional Pashquisher (of which I am no fan anyway), the only good LRs are the battle tank and the executioner, with the demolisher lagging a bit behind. The others, no reason to take them.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Feral_80

[CoffeeGrunt]

Poor performance of all fixed shot turrets!? Have you seen the Punisher lately? :P

[Feral_80]

Yes. That's the only which *can* be worth it, and still it's no better (or even inferior) to a Vulture if you take everything into account.

[CoffeeGrunt]

What everything? It has the same BS as a Vulture, same armament, tougher chassis, can move and fire without issue, and benefits from Doctrines. The Vulture only really has Fly, Hard to Hit and mobility on its side.

[Feral_80]

"Only". Well I wish I had more of that "only" at that cost and performance, if you think it is not much.

BS: both effectively hit at 4+ since the Vulture has +1 against ground targets. And if you need, the Vulture can become more vulnerable and hit at 3+. The LR has no option to choose.

Mobility: I won't even discuss this, because it's silly.

Defense: I would trade +1 toughness with -1 to be hit with almost any day. The first is situational, and against some weapons it's useless. The -1 to be hit is *always* good except vs flamers, which have no real anti-tank capability anyway. And, the Vulture has more wounds.

 

The only real advantge of the LR are the buffs it can receive from doctrines and orders (but the latter need a tank commander alive and nearby). But then again, you can give rerolls 1s to a Vulture with a cheap officer of the Fleet if you really want to, and, especially, the ability to be immune to be bogged down into close combat is priceless and I gladly give up doctrines for that.

 

Vulture is by far our better resource for anti-personnel. LRs are good, but they only excel with their heavy d6-shot cannons.

[CoffeeGrunt]

"Only". Well I wish I had more of that "only" at that cost and performance, if you think it is not much.

BS: both effectively hit at 4+ since the Vulture has +1 against ground targets. And if you need, the Vulture can become more vulnerable and hit at 3+. The LR has no option to choose.

Defense: I would trade +1 toughness with -1 to be hit with almost any day. The first is situational, and against some weapons it's useless. The -1 to be hit is *always* good except vs flamers, which have no real anti-tank capability anyway. And, the Vulture has more wounds.

 

 

The Russ can be upgraded to BS3+ if you want via a Tank Commander, plus can take additional armament the Punisher Vulture can't. Also worth noting that the Russ is also slightly cheaper by 10pts, and costs half as much in real money. :P

 

The Vulture also is vulnerable to AA weapons which are less effective vs the Russ. It also cannot score Objectives, cannot get Objective Secured like the Russ in a Spearhead, and most importantly, does not count as a model on the table for the purpose of Sudden Death. Additionally, you can't really hide your characters behind it like you can with a Russ. (Useful if there's snipers about.) It also can't benefit from Crush Them or Tank Orders, it doesn't get the benefits of Regimental Doctrines and if you do Hover it for a superior BS3+, it's incredibly vulnerable the turn after, making it risky to us early game and relies on it surviving to late game.

 

A Valhallan Russ would suffer less from damage, a Vostroyan Russ would outrange it, a Cadian Russ would be more accurate with the Stratagem, and the Steel Legion would be more resilient against AP-1 attacks. Not to mention Mordians benefiting on Overwatch and Tallarn allowing it to be outflanked in useful positions. A canny player can spread out to deny the Vulture a landing spot so it has to overshoot the target. While that isn't a problem for targeting anymore, it can mean it's not in range of ideal targets or has to fly into a risky position for a FLY charge.

 

I just think that dismissing the Punisher Russ entirely is a bit silly because there's another unit with similar capability. I use and love both units, but they're two different roles.

[Feral_80]

It's not much of an argument to state that the Russ costs 10 pts less than a Vulture, and *plus* you can make it a tank commander - which actually costs 20 pts more than a Vulture. Either one or the other, and in each case the Vulture has an advantage in terms of either accuracy or cost.

 

AA weapon: do you really see many of these around? Come on. Again, not an argument: the russ is more vulnerable against non-AA weapons, which are obviously 95% more frequent.

 

Objectives: yes, the Russ can get ObjSec if you invest heavily on them in a Spearhead. And then lose it against 2 Troop infantry models. Honestly, ObjSec on LR is a nice little boon, but largely irrelevant. And not everybody is eager to design their list around a Spearhead which will include 3 LR, and likely at least a 4th one as Tank Commander.

 

As for the doctrines: as stated, they are counterbalanced by the other advantages of a Vulture. A clever player can limit your ability to position the Vulture? Yes well, theoretically: if that clever player has a horde yes, he can do it. Just as he can deny your ability to outflank Tallarn LRs. But then again, this is pure theory. Against many armies, he just won't have enough board coverage to do that. And the Vulture can often move behind the enemy lines and fire at important backfield units, and even snipe lone characters sometimes. Relatively easily done against many armies.

 

I am not dismissing LR punisher entirely. I am saying that is redundant, and not particularly impressive against the Vulture, which I prefer in its role since it is much more flexible. AM is not really in need of two short-range anti-infantry options. What LRs perform best is heavy fire support with good AP, and that's why battle tank and executioner are the most interesting of all.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I see a lot of Hydras and Icarus Onagers. You also don't need to take 4 Russes in a Spearhead. You can just take cheap filler options you would otherwise take anyway. E.g., 2 Mortar Teams, a Russ, and a Tank Commander. 

 

You prefer the Vulture but you talk about it as if it's permanently and unilaterally better than the Russ, which is again, silly. I mean every Russ variant has an alternative you could use that's more points efficient in theory. The Vulture lacks for additional firepower options that would make it more versatile. It puts out 43 S5 shots but ca't take any more guns.

 

Plus ObSec on a Russ isn't irrelevant if you kill all their Troops with the Russes. ;)

[Feral_80]

So you are suggesting taking a Spearhead to have 1 ObjSec LR. Ah. Totally worth it over more flexible detachments, I'm sure.

 

A for the rest, pure theory again. You are repeating your theoretical points - I won't repeat mine, as I think we have provided more than enough points in favour or against.

[Beams]

A Vostroyans punisher tank commander has an extra 6" range and can spend a command point to hit on 2's and orders to reroll.ones, making it approx. Hit all of its shots as opposed to the vultures Bs 4 / 50%

 

Vultures are good, but I'd gladly pay the extra 20 pts for a Vostroyans command punisher.

[CoffeeGrunt]

So you are suggesting taking a Spearhead to have 1 ObjSec LR. Ah. Totally worth it over more flexible detachments, I'm sure.

We're literally the easiest fashion to fill slots with, and if you were taking it anyway...

 

Plus in my example there was two Russes. :P