Chaos bikers. Best legion trait? Tactics!

[the jeske]

Would you consider them a powerful unit in 8th?

 

Do they work good with all Plasma and lord on bike for rerolls of one when overcharging? Or are they better suited for other Jobs...questions for all of you

no. you should not take chaos bikers in 8th, unless you are forced in some way [like already have them from prior editions and don't have money to upgrade to 8th].

[Mekhitar]

I (finally) broke out some bikes last game. I have avoided them because I play a dark angels opponent and I have really not been impressed with how bikes fare, though they do have a lot of shooting.

 

I took a unit with 3 melta guns (2 + combi) and used them as character hunters vs ultramarines. The fast move let me get them in position to unload on exactly the target in question, not always easy on characters. They put glitterbomb down the second time, and also killed their chief librarian and a bike apothecary later on - so - of th opponent improperly screens for their speed they fret the job done.

 

Killing characters is my favorite use of melta...

[ChazSexington]

How are people converting the bike squads to get the weapon loadouts? I've played against some people in tournaments who glued flamers under the feet of the riders, which seems... bad.

[Panzer]

How are people converting the bike squads to get the weapon loadouts? I've played against some people in tournaments who glued flamers under the feet of the riders, which seems... bad.

Give it an arm with a special weapon? Should be possible to drive a bike with one hand in the far future still. :D

[ChazSexington]

 

How are people converting the bike squads to get the weapon loadouts? I've played against some people in tournaments who glued flamers under the feet of the riders, which seems... bad.

Give it an arm with a special weapon? Should be possible to drive a bike with one hand in the far future still.

 

 

Hahaha! True, I also think it's a better option, from both a conversion ease and game perspective!

[Closet Skeleton]

How are people converting the bike squads to get the weapon loadouts? I've played against some people in tournaments who glued flamers under the feet of the riders, which seems... bad.

mine are still blue-tacked on

[bozo69pd]

Well I converted a bunch of cheap DV DA bikers, and those ones are holding a plasma gun one handed. Just cut off the arm with the plasma gun and glue on one holding a melta gun/flamer.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

If you use loyalist bike you can glue/magnet the special weapon on the front tire. As I use 30k bike I go with the right arm holding the weapon. 

[the jeske]

why are people puting meltaguns on their bikers ?

[DreamIsCollapsing]

why are people puting meltaguns on their bikers ?

 

Because we can ?

Because we are not all, always playing no-limit turnament level game ?

Because having D6 AP-4 weapon with a threatning range of >30" is fun (i mean, not 21 Obliterators army level of fun, but tho). 

[the jeske]

We already went over bikers being non valid in tournament lists, am not asking questions I know the anwsers for. am asking why they are used with melta by people who do take them. Is it because of looks . Because a 50% chance to hit on a single shot weapon seems kind of bad, even with 3 combis it still shouldn't kill an avarge rhino, not to mention bigger targets. And am assuming their are used for hunting tanks etc. Plasma seems like a more optimal option and for melta use terminators or raptors are cheaper, and less handicaped [not being burdened with bikes rules, having smaller foot print for melee which can happen while being armed with melta etc].

[Panzer]

We already went over bikers being non valid in tournament lists, am not asking questions I know the anwsers for. am asking why they are used with melta by people who do take them. Is it because of looks . Because a 50% chance to hit on a single shot weapon seems kind of bad, even with 3 combis it still shouldn't kill an avarge rhino, not to mention bigger targets. And am assuming their are used for hunting tanks etc. Plasma seems like a more optimal option and for melta use terminators or raptors are cheaper, and less handicaped [not being burdened with bikes rules, having smaller foot print for melee which can happen while being armed with melta etc].

 

Sometimes it would really help to read, jeske. He stated why he takes Melta guns on his bikes. Of course you're going to say now that it's not worth it so whatever. ^^

 

I (finally) broke out some bikes last game. I have avoided them because I play a dark angels opponent and I have really not been impressed with how bikes fare, though they do have a lot of shooting.

 

I took a unit with 3 melta guns (2 + combi) and used them as character hunters vs ultramarines. The fast move let me get them in position to unload on exactly the target in question, not always easy on characters. They put glitterbomb down the second time, and also killed their chief librarian and a bike apothecary later on - so - of th opponent improperly screens for their speed they fret the job done.

 

Killing characters is my favorite use of melta...

 

EDIT: better formating is better.

Edited October 23, 2017 by sfPanzer

[GreyCrow]

Bikers can wear meltas like they can wear flamers and plasmas. A couple special weapons a squad isn't going to make them very good at either job beyond their base loadout anyways.

 

What we all need to remember is that whenever we use the terms "better", "worse", "valid", "invalid", it's always because we have a point of reference to compare. It's never absolute, always relative. And if we make relative statements, let's make sure the point of reference is clear.

 

I'm standing still and yet I'm moving at 1000mph relative to a satellite in geostationary orbit.

 

There is no better or worse point of reference, much like there is no competitive or uncompetitive unit in absolute fashion. All the units' competitiveness is as much a factor of its stats that it is the players' understanding of basic strategic principle, the rest of his list, the same criteria applied to other people, the scenarios and how hot the dice rolled for either and what objectives were drawn and what the arbitrary tournament rules are and...

 

Bikers are just a tougher, faster, shootier version of the CSM that can't be taken in blobs of 20.

Is it good, is it bad ? It all depends on what you consider good or bad.

 

Bikers are as much tank hunters as CSM are. If you are looking for a tank hunters unit, the bikers are definitely the wrong choice.

Doesn't mean they don't have other uses, which are not, spoiler alert, linked to shooting stuff to death.

 

There are many more parameters to judge a unit than its killyness or resilient factor.

[Panzer]

Bikers can wear meltas like they can wear flamers and plasmas. A couple special weapons a squad isn't going to make them very good at either job beyond their base loadout anyways.

 

What we all need to remember is that whenever we use the terms "better", "worse", "valid", "invalid", it's always because we have a point of reference to compare. It's never absolute, always relative. And if we make relative statements, let's make sure the point of reference is clear.

 

I'm standing still and yet I'm moving at 1000mph relative to a satellite in geostationary orbit.

 

There is no better or worse point of reference, much like there is no competitive or uncompetitive unit in absolute fashion. All the units' competitiveness is as much a factor of its stats that it is the players' understanding of basic strategic principle, the rest of his list, the same criteria applied to other people, the scenarios and how hot the dice rolled for either and what objectives were drawn and what the arbitrary tournament rules are and...

 

Bikers are just a tougher, faster, shootier version of the CSM that can't be taken in blobs of 20.

Is it good, is it bad ? It all depends on what you consider good or bad.

 

Bikers are as much tank hunters as CSM are. If you are looking for a tank hunters unit, the bikers are definitely the wrong choice.

Doesn't mean they don't have other uses, which are not, spoiler alert, linked to shooting stuff to death.

 

There are many more parameters to judge a unit than its killyness or resilient factor.

I get what you're saying, but that being said, Bikes are still not good even if judged for other things. Their only redeeming factor is that they are fast when they advance. In return they don't have the ability to deep strike and no fly keyword (Raptors are really the most similar CSM unit to them, not Chaos Marines). T5 rarely matters. Nobody really expects S4 or S5 stuff doing much anyway and the more common anti-small stuff weapons are S6-7.

So for the character hunting example, Raptors could jump over terrain and other units so the enemy would have to bubble wrap much tighter (or much wider depending on the size of the chaff unit) to prevent them getting to their target. Bikes are fast but would have to drive around and hope to find an opening to fit through to get to the character.

Now Raptors aren't incredibly good either, but as intercepting unit they are slightly ahead of Bikes imo. And that's not judged based on killing potential or durability but on their utility.

 

Saying every unit has its purpose is just pretendious nonsense. Some units are clearly just bad with the only reason to ever take them being having the models already, fancying their playstyle or model, or for fluff/narrative reasons.

However while Bikes are a rather bad unit, just as Chosen, they are not outright terrible. They can still hold their own in non-tournament level games. You just need to know what to expect from them. Which is, as you said, not doing a whole lot of damage. They are fast and slightly more durable than regular Marines. Use that to crash them into enemy lines and prevent faster enemy units without FLY keyword to get where they want until the rest of your army caught up.

[Prot]

I’m in the Renegades camp for bikers. I started 8 th using them from my KDK ported into my World Eaters but 5hey didn’t function to great for me.

 

Next phase I used them with my Renegades and used them with just Bolters and chainswords for some ver6 fast tie up assault. Now I want to put a few flamers on my Renegades bikes. I think this might be worth experimenting now with Eldar out.

[GreyCrow]

@sfPanzer : But that's the thing, you say units are bad without mentioning the point of reference :P

It's not pretentious nonsense, units are bad when you have a purpose in mind and judge them against that. It's like saying shotguns in video games are bad because of short range and bad accuracy, because this is implying you want to use them for another purpose than what they are meant for! :P

 

I don't blame you because you then actually finding a good use for the bikers : crashing into the enemy units, and delaying things, distracting them as well.

 

I can understand that you compare them to what tournament players actually field and their reasons behind it. I have hanged out and played against top tier ETC players, and I could observe the following from their list building :

- They don't invest in good units. They invest in units that the meta will have trouble dealing with because of habits.

- They create simple lists to ensure they keep micromanagement to a manageable level

- They take units that will allow them some reactivity rather than stick to a plan that is unflexible, in case they don't foresee everything.

- They build lists to optimize tournament victory conditions rather than all out destruction, although either staying power or some ability to neuter the enemy is always preferred.

- They find an army that makes them and scale it up, because critical mass is needed for purpose when you can't avoid engagement

- Once in battle, they use lists for what they were designed for, rather than what they want to do with them or their personal idiosyncrasies

 

Example, a 2000 points list with 60 Chaos Marines, 30 Bikers and 2 HQs, with a varied equipment set.

 

Without counting the HQs HP, this list needs 1350 boltgun shots to be put down on average, or 11.25 Tactical Squads pumping continuous Rapid Fire shots for 6 straight turns.

 

How this list plays in a competitive setting is just slowly grinding the enemy out while recklessly charging your bikers in to force fallbacks and diminish shooting, while units combine fire and you use the odd specials to annoy specific threats.

 

It's meant to play tarpit and to play board control. Because like you said, except from fly accross the board, you are not going to be able to go beyond the conga line.

 

I agree, this list is not an exercise of complicated thinking and planning, you are going to take casualties, but it's a question of whether the enemy army is capable of dealing with 150 MEQ wounds (equivalented based on Bolter shots needed to bring down), while half of your army is constantly in the face and denying shooting capabilities while slowly whittling them down :P

[bozo69pd]

why are people puting meltaguns on their bikers ?

Yeah I would never just casually throw around melta since the misses do hurt so bad! This weekend I actually successfully used them in 1 game making a mini biker star consisting of 2 bike units, bike lord, bike sorc, 5 man spawn unit that:

 

Moves it's biker range with a 5 man spawn unit (that falls behind with its 7" move)

Sorc cast warp speed and prescience on spawn

All advance, then sorc, lord, and all bikes open up with either melta or combi melta and the lord is rerolling 1's for all (in this case a wave serpent which ends up popping). Sure the -1 to hit made some misses, but in the end the wave serpent is gone, and the tastey wraithblades fall out.

All charge. I luckily roll a 6 for spawn attacks with a 3 on the mutation table! 30 attacks hitting on 3's rerolling 1's, then reroll all wounds! This was a small 500 point game, but this unit just one the game on turn 1.

 

It was over so quick we had time for 1 more game that night!

[Panzer]

@sfPanzer : But that's the thing, you say units are bad without mentioning the point of reference

It's not pretentious nonsense, units are bad when you have a purpose in mind and judge them against that. I

I thought I made it clear that when I say that a unit is just bad that they are outclassed by anything else (or even completely unable to do what they are supposed to do) when judging them against that very specific purpose.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Other than stalling/disruption, the one thing that I've seen bikes do well this edition (that other CSM units of equivalent speed can't always do) is anti-horde. At pointblank range, you can get 44 shots out of a bike unit (if you arm the champ with another Combi-Bolter to replace his pistol). To get similar firepower from a unit of Noise Marines requires 14 of them (again, adding an extra Combi-Bolter to the Champion based on RAW). The bikes are a handful of points more expensive, but they get greater mobility and greater durability from 6 additional wounds, while Noise Marines can do their damage from further away, ignore cover, and get Music of the Apocalypse. I imagine that many people would rather just use NM in Rhinos or with Warptime, but the bikes are somewhat comparable unless we're talking EC, whose Noise Marines get ObSec.

 

Iron Warriors or Renegades might want to look at the bikes because of the redundancy of the Sonic Blasters with the IW trait and the +6 to advance followed by a charge when you need it. I imagine most everyone else will want the NM's instead for anti-horde.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

You got chosen with combi-bolter for "cheap" anti horde too. Less effectives than NM tho. 

 

(That's rewind me of my wet anti horde dream : an Hellforged Predator with combiflamers, flamer on main weapon, sponso heavy flamers. Much flamers, Wow, absolut F4/5 auto-hit, such Attack on charge with +D3 hit, very wounds restore at killing horde thing). 

[Panzer]

You got chosen with combi-bolter for "cheap" anti horde too. Less effectives than NM tho. 

 

(That's rewind me of my wet anti horde dream : an Hellforged Predator with combiflamers, flamer on main weapon, sponso heavy flamers. Much flamers, Wow, absolut F4/5 auto-hit, such Attack on charge with +D3 hit, very wounds restore at killing horde thing). 

Try a Helbrute with double fist+heavy flamer and Doom Siren then. The only problem is getting into range since they are heavy and you can't advance&shoot with them. :P

Also that's the weirdest attempt at trying to apply the Doge meme I've ever seen lmao

[DreamIsCollapsing]

But now you are seing a Predator with a Doge head and multiple flamers rushing into a space marine army while trying to eat them with his track don't you ?

 

Or is it just me ?

[Panzer]

But now you are seing a Predator with a Doge head and multiple flamers rushing into a space marine army while trying to eat them with his track don't you ?

 

Or is it just me ?

No, I fear that's just you. ^^