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Why aren't the Primarch's weapons used in the 41st Mill?

Primarch Weapons

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#76
reckoning

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Difference being, in 40K, a 10,000 year-old weapon is probably better than whatever is currently being used. Technology has declined, rather than the other way around.

Patton used Blackjack Pershing's revolvers, if I recall.


Except for Primaris, Bolt Rifles, new armor marks, Repulsors, Redemptor Dreads...

Other than these, tech has declined.
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karden00, on 28 Apr 2014 - 21:55, said:
Eh... dark angels couldn't hold the line. Surprise surprise....

 

 


#77
Steel Company

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Difference being, in 40K, a 10,000 year-old weapon is probably better than whatever is currently being used. Technology has declined, rather than the other way around.

Patton used Blackjack Pershing's revolvers, if I recall.


Except for Primaris, Bolt Rifles, new armor marks, Repulsors, Redemptor Dreads...

Other than these, tech has declined.

 

 

 

That's due to the guy that built it, wanting to advance machines rather than worship them....


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#78
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Difference being, in 40K, a 10,000 year-old weapon is probably better than whatever is currently being used.  Technology has declined, rather than the other way around.

 

It's also a 10k old *relic* of a lost age, never to be replaced.

 

Remember what happened to the supposed bits of the Holy Cross? Imagine losing Dorn's rubber ducky to the nids, or having orks use a relic standard as a do rag?


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#79
Knight of Lupus

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I agree with that point - and I share that opinion.  But that, alone, is the reason most relics are revered, and not used.  It doesn't have anything to do with them being archaic and obsolete technology, or being the wrong size for someone's head, or any other justification.  The wargear of a Primarch is the 40K equivalent of the Shroud of Turin, the Holy Grail, the Spear of Destiny, the Star-Spangled Banner...  many of the items are still being sought after, some may not be the genuine article, but those that do are preserved for their inspirational value.

 

However, you're off-base when it comes to Relic standards.  Those are most certainly borne into battle, or what's the point of a standard in the first place?  There's a reason that standard bearers are referred to as "Ancients", and it's nothing to do with the age of the guy carrying it (though surely, the bearer of such a historical item should be from among the most valiant).  Seeing the selfsame banner that was carried to war in the days of legend is sure to inspire warriors to acts of valor far beyond that of a brand-new one. 


"Heed not the whispers in the gloom, or the rantings of madmen, for they will attempt to beguile you.
Cleave to your training, for heretics speak naught but lies and damnations.  Let thy weapons speak in answer."

#80
Urriak Urruk

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Difference being, in 40K, a 10,000 year-old weapon is probably better than whatever is currently being used.  Technology has declined, rather than the other way around.

 

It's also a 10k old *relic* of a lost age, never to be replaced.

 

Remember what happened to the supposed bits of the Holy Cross? Imagine losing Dorn's rubber ducky to the nids, or having orks use a relic standard as a do rag?

 

 

A better historical example for your point would probably be how whenever Rome lost an Aquila in battle it would lead to a huge drop in morale, and a boost to that of their enemy.

 

Still that they kept carrying them around for some time, and although 15 Aquilas were lost in battle they somehow would recover 10 of them.

 

I think the combined points of, these weapons are actually good tech, they are a huge boost for morale, and desperate times equals desperate gambits should merit their use, but I do understand the logic of them being too important to risk.


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#81
Xenith

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A lot of people seem to be equating "made by primarch" to "weapon used by primarch"

Gauntlets of ultramar. Reclaimed by Guilliman, not used by him.

Lion blade. Used by the lion. Not used by cypher.

Ravens talons. Made by corax, not used by him.

Lions helm. Owned by the lion. ?used by the lion. Used by Azrael.

Gorechild. Used by Angron. Used by khârn.

Talon of Horus. Used by Horus. Used by Abaddon.

As you can see, only the chaotic legions use their primarchs wargear regularly. The loyalists all have some reverence for it.
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#82
Domhnall

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Something to consider as well for some of the wargear that's reputedly been used by or made by the Primarch, is that they may not actually be what they are said to be, just a copy or some such.

 

A few of examples here using the Lions Helm as an example.

 

1. The lion had a helm with wings on. At some point after, one of the Chapter Masters find a picture of the Primarch in said helm thinks to himself "I want one of those". Has it made to fit himself, and proclaims to the Chapter it is the Primarch's helm thought lost but now found! Hurrah!

 

2. A Chapter Master of the Dark Angels has a helm made for himself and goes to battle.

A Marine looks at him with the funny bunny ears "what's that?" pointing to the helm.

"Erm, aah, it's the Primarch's helm!"

"Is it?"
"Yes. Of course it is! Why would I wear this if it wasn't!"

"Hurrah! To battle for the Primarch's Helm!"

 

3. Chapter Master Bob is on a 3 week Fenrisian Beer bender and looses a bet and has to wear a helm with fake bunny ears attached as a laugh for the last week. 500 years later, behold the mighty Winged Helm of the Primarch as found by Chapter Master Bob, praise be to his glory in battle!

 

In all cases, it's not the actual helm but it doesn't matter. As long as everybody believes it is is all that matters. As previously mentioned, that was how battle standards worked. Does a big bit of patterned cloth actually do anything in battle? No, but it did affect the morale of the troops if it falls or stands, and after a while it takes on almost mystical properties if it's been used in a succession of victories.


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#83
Jarl Caldersson

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Or maybe the Lion had a very small head.
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sml_gallery_69091_12729_6611.jpggallery_4664_11830_1029.jpeg

"It has been said that the Lord of Ultramar sees little else besides the primacy of his own culture. For him, all worlds might as well be Ultramar." - Diplomat Pyke

"I would have expected that suggestion from Ferrus, or maybe even Horus, but never Russ. He has a hidden depth that one" - Primarch Fulgrim

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#84
Rik Lightstar

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OR

The Watchers carry the Lion's actual Helm and Azreal has a matching one in his size that he wears in hostile environments but the Watchers still follow him around with the Primarch sized one.

Rik
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#85
Jarl Caldersson

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We seem to be going around in circles for this discussion. I think we have made enough points as to why they wouldn't use a primarch weapon, and only use a primarch weapon in dire emergencies. Maybe they would use a weapon crafted by Primarch. We also made points that it's been 10k and we don't know if it really is the primarchs, for all we know Cypher could be carrying around Big E's toothpick. Unless every chapter has someone else like Bjorn who can first hand ID relics we don't know if they are real.

Also Lion has a tiny head.
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sml_gallery_69091_12729_6611.jpggallery_4664_11830_1029.jpeg

"It has been said that the Lord of Ultramar sees little else besides the primacy of his own culture. For him, all worlds might as well be Ultramar." - Diplomat Pyke

"I would have expected that suggestion from Ferrus, or maybe even Horus, but never Russ. He has a hidden depth that one" - Primarch Fulgrim

"The Wolves were the Emperor’s red right hand–monsters in their own way–but how easy it was to only see the savage, to fear the axe and miss the subtle knife." - Prmomus


#86
Sete

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I have to agree that the Lion has a tiny head.
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#87
Knight of Lupus

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Guilliman seems to have an undersized head compared to his other proportions, too.  Look at depictions of the Emperor - it seems to be common.  Maybe Primarchs have normal sized heads, like Thrud or something.


"Heed not the whispers in the gloom, or the rantings of madmen, for they will attempt to beguile you.
Cleave to your training, for heretics speak naught but lies and damnations.  Let thy weapons speak in answer."

#88
Urriak Urruk

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Guilliman seems to have an undersized head compared to his other proportions, too.  Look at depictions of the Emperor - it seems to be common.  Maybe Primarchs have normal sized heads, like Thrud or something.

 

Perhaps instead of the Lion having a small head, Azreal has a very big one?


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#89
Sete

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Well to call himself Supreme Grandmaster... Ba dum tss.

Edited by Sete, 15 November 2017 - 05:30 PM.

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#90
Xenith

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I have to agree that the Lion has a tiny head.


Maybe "The Lion Helm" is just the DA's favoured brand of prophylactic.

Edited by Xenith, 18 November 2017 - 09:35 AM.

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#91
Marshal Rohr

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In the old days I’d say it’s because those weapons surely wouldn’t have survived ten thousand years anymore than a bronze swords from Egypt exist today. But sadly, the modern design studio is essentially a collection of failed comic book writers.
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#92
The Observer

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In the old days I’d say it’s because those weapons surely wouldn’t have survived ten thousand years anymore than a bronze swords from Egypt exist today. But sadly, the modern design studio is essentially a collection of failed comic book writers.

 

So swords of which we have examples from the 18th Century BCE (For example the very beautifully electrum inlaid khopesh found in Nablus and currently exhibited in the Berlin State museum), of which some have survived in better condition than iron and steel swords that were made during the 30 year war and the reformation (Such as those exhibited at the Basel Museum for History and the Klingenmuseum in Solingen), despite having been handed down through various, partially opposing cultures that might've had motivations to either purposefully destroy such objects or just simply neglect them, or having been lost beneath sands, in moors and rivers, perhaps even ice,  have survived as well as relics and weapons handed down directly to chapters that persisted for at least 10 millennia, and have revered such objects more than any other possession of theirs?

I don't know friend, the only edition I can think of where this reverence and thus desire for preservation would not have been the case, is be Rogue Trader, and that is a pretty different 40k beast even when compared to 2nd edition. Sure, some relics were lost (Such as the spear or russ, which was then retrieved, I believe), but such events have been viewed as one of the greatest shames that could befall a chapter, and if boarding actions are undertaken to save a suit of terminator armour, then I can't imagine what a chapter would do to recover the Spear of Telesto.

What instead I could envision, is that such objects are not used because they have either been lost for good (Ferrus' Hammer is still in Perty's hands I believe), have fallen into disrepair due to arcane technologies and are just polished, maintained and upheld as icons of faith and identity, the respective chapters are too afraid to lose what little visual and material connection they have to their ancestral fathers, or it would simply be impractical to wield such weapons (I can imagine that Vulkan's hammer might be a tad too large and unwieldy even for the biggest of space marines). This vision of ancient archaeotech pistols, bolters, and eldritch powerweapons that cannot be used due to their inner mechanisms being beyond the grasp of even secret martian knowledge, and thus are instead polished and visually maintained as an anchor of faith for the sons of their bearers. A bolter wrought in the finest forges, by the most skilled hands and engraved with scenes and wisdoms of ages much greater than anything after the heresy, and yet it is decrepit, disfunctional, and broken inside; almost like the Imperium, in a way.

 

Or, y'know, perhaps another ad hominem attack on the design studio offers a better explanation.


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#93
Xenith

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What he said.

Dan Abnett is also a successful comic book writer.

#94
Urriak Urruk

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In the old days I’d say it’s because those weapons surely wouldn’t have survived ten thousand years anymore than a bronze swords from Egypt exist today. But sadly, the modern design studio is essentially a collection of failed comic book writers.

 

 

What instead I could envision, is that such objects are not used because they have either been lost for good (Ferrus' Hammer is still in Perty's hands I believe), have fallen into disrepair due to arcane technologies and are just polished, maintained and upheld as icons of faith and identity, the respective chapters are too afraid to lose what little visual and material connection they have to their ancestral fathers, or it would simply be impractical to wield such weapons (I can imagine that Vulkan's hammer might be a tad too large and unwieldy even for the biggest of space marines). 

 

The Iron Hands did get the hammer back according to the Lexicanum, though I don't really understand how.


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#95
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Huh, fancy that, apparently a Morlock Captain took it back. You learn something new every day!


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#96
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Nooooope, that's someone's headcanon thst made it onto the website. That hasn't happened in the fiction. At least not yet.
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#97
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I'm pretty sure the only thing we IH have relic wise is stuff recovered for the flag ship and many tanks and dreads

#98
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EXCEPT for the weapons of Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius! Apparently the Iron Hands somehow got Forgebreaker back

 

Actually nope, it was 'recovered' by another chapter entirely whistlingW.gif

 

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