Rumor thoughts: The one where a Primarch changes sides.

[General Strike]

What are your thoughts on the rumor that one of the Primarchs returning won't be leading his chapter? Now it doesn't straight up mean a chaos will turn loyal or vice versa, but that is the assumption. If this happens, if say Alpharius Omegon turns loyal, or Dorne is Chaos, or the Lion joins chaos, whatever it is, how will you feel if your primarch is the one who switches sides?

[Leif Bearclaw]

Frankly, if they actually do it, that'll be the final proof that the writers at GW really have no idea what they're doing. This isn't Marvel/DC/pro-Wrestling, where individual characters can flop around from side to side at the drop of a hat, and the change will be retconned next season/year/special, the setting's set up so treachery is a 'one time' deal, and heel/face turns aren't the norm for established characters. I don't see how any extant fans of the Primarch/Legion would be OK with the complete character transplant and betrayal of established canon that would be required for any Primarch to switch sides. It's pretty much 'hey, we took this thing you liked, killed it and replaced it with something completely different, yet are still using the same name/it's wearing the dead thing's face'.

[Sete]

For example Ferrus Manus "returning" to lead the LoTD.

 

I have no faith in GW to make things decent tho.

Edited November 1, 2017 by Sete

[Radiation]

It's pretty much 'hey, we took this thing you liked, killed it and replaced it with something completely different, yet are still using the same name/it's wearing the dead thing's face'.

 

I feel like they have already done this awhile ago.

[Aramis K]

I don't think a Primarch will flip, but I do think one could drop out of alignment with rest of their faction within the justification of their own fluff. I think a split Imperium more likely than a loyalist turning to Chaos.

[TheMawr]

As said in another topic about it, I dont think the changing sides is a changing sides thing, but basically a progression of what we have already seen with guileman; he leads the imperium as a whole, not his chapter (he specificaly left calgar as commander of the ultramarines).

Other (repeating) that examples;

- Angron* > Khorne demonkin or some kind of blood pactish khornate group
- Fulgrim* > Multiculti Slaaneshi alliance
- Lorgar* > Chaos cultists army
- Perturabo > Dark Mechanicus

- Rogal dorn > Talons of the Emperor or Templars
- Vulkan* > some kind of humanitarian group
- Jaghatai Khan > Deathwatch/Ordo xenos
- Corvus corax > Assassins
- Ferrus Manus > Adeptus Mechanicus
- the Lion* > inquisition or worst case scenario the Fallen (the imperium half of them.)
- Leman Russ* > the Wolf brother/13th company from the warp
- Sanguinus > plastic Sisters of Battle

I really dont see anything too radical there, no loyalist turning to chaos, and definitely no chaos ones turning loyal. everything is way beyond that point already (the loyal ones were swayed by the unknown, they now know what chaos is... likewise the chaos ones are too far gone.)... the imperium ones will remain imperium and the chaos ones will remain chaos, IF they are not part of their chapter/legion... than its another faction in their bigger faction... and because of keywords you would still be able to use them with their own (like guilleman)
And those with * will almost definitely return leading their own legion/chapter.

[Shockmaster]

Frankly, if they actually do it, that'll be the final proof that the writers at GW really have no idea what they're doing. This isn't Marvel/DC/pro-Wrestling, where individual characters can flop around from side to side at the drop of a hat, and the change will be retconned next season/year/special, the setting's set up so treachery is a 'one time' deal, and heel/face turns aren't the norm for established characters. I don't see how any extant fans of the Primarch/Legion would be OK with the complete character transplant and betrayal of established canon that would be required for any Primarch to switch sides. It's pretty much 'hey, we took this thing you liked, killed it and replaced it with something completely different, yet are still using the same name/it's wearing the dead thing's face'.

 

I am now imaging Horus as Hulk Hogan when he joined the nWo, greatest heel turn ever. 

[Kinstryfe]

Dorn returns and, seeing the dire straights the Imperium is in, decides that they need crusaders not builders, and takes up leadership of the Black Templars. Rumor fulfilled in the least shocking way possible.

[Quixus]

As said in another topic about it, I dont think the changing sides is a changing sides thing, but basically a progression of what we have already seen with guileman; he leads the imperium as a whole, not his chapter (he specificaly left calgar as commander of the ultramarines).

 

Other (repeating) that examples;

- Angron* > Khorne demonkin or some kind of blood pactish khornate group

- Fulgrim* > Multiculti Slaaneshi alliance

- Lorgar* > Chaos cultists army

- Perturabo > Dark Mechanicus

- Rogal dorn > Talons of the Emperor or Templars

- Vulkan* > some kind of humanitarian group

- Jaghatai Khan > Deathwatch/Ordo xenos

- Corvus corax > Assassins

- Ferrus Manus > Adeptus Mechanicus

- the Lion* > inquisition or worst case scenario the Fallen (the imperium half of them.)

- Leman Russ* > the Wolf brother/13th company from the warp

- Sanguinus > plastic Sisters of Battle

 

I really dont see anything too radical there, no loyalist turning to chaos, and definitely no chaos ones turning loyal. everything is way beyond that point already (the loyal ones were swayed by the unknown, they now know what chaos is... likewise the chaos ones are too far gone.)... the imperium ones will remain imperium and the chaos ones will remain chaos, IF they are not part of their chapter/legion... than its another faction in their bigger faction... and because of keywords you would still be able to use them with their own (like guilleman)

And those with * will almost definitely return leading their own legion/chapter.

I get most of them, but why would Sanguinius lead the sisters of battle?

[Kelborn]

'Cause the prettiest Primarch gets the ladies.

 

And for the angel / church theme.

[mactire]

I'd guess he means Sangy isn't coming back and plastic SoB just ain't coming at all

[The Doctor Of War]

I would certainly hope that "not leading their chapter" does mean leading a different allied faction, rather than switching sides. If we were having this discussion twenty years ago, when the Primarchs were still figures of legend with only a handful of paragraphs written about them, then perhaps a radical shift in alignment could have occurred.

 

But after the Heresy series their characters and motivation are just too detailed and established that any change would be out of character and jarring.

 

I simply cannot not see Jaghatai Khan, for example, following Chaos after reading 'Scars'. Or Lorgar deciding maybe the Emperor was alright really after reading 'The First Heretic'.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Retconned Legion

[pandion40]

It would be incredibly difficult to pull off a Primarch switching sides. It would require a long campaign of subtle hints leading up to a seiries of novels where the turn happens. It would have to happen in a novel for me. We would need a lot of time inside the Primarchs head to convince us.

 

The quality of those novels would need to be godlike to make it convincing, I’d admire the bravery of any author willing to try, I’d also question their sanity.

 

What they most likely will do is have Ferrus lead the LotD. With maybe other Primarchs taking expanded roles.

[Sete]

Or GW shoehorns it.

[Claws and Effect]

The most likely Chaos-to-loyal switch would be Omegon. His loyalty to either side was always in question to begin with, and he did some stuff during the Heresy to make you question his commitment to Chaos. 

 

The Imperium would hardly welcome him back with open arms, but I could see him engaging in a guerilla war against Chaos on his own. 

 

As much as I hate to say it, the most likely Loyal-to-Chaos switch is probably Corax. His mental state when he disappeared could open him up to being corrupted over time. I don't think it will actually happen, but I've been wrong before.

 

I could ​see him coming back and rejecting the Imperium as it is, though. The realization that the current Imperium is shockingly similar to what he fought against in his youth could sour him on the whole idea. I think he'd be proud of what became of his Legion, though. The Raven Guard have enough successors that he'd have a decent sized force to work with if he went that route. Black Guard, Revilers, Raptors, Death Spectres, Knights of the Raven, and the Raven Guard themselves. That's at least 6,000 Astartes. He was effective with half that number in the Scouring. His style of warfare doesn't need an overwhelming amount of troops. 

 

The rumor specifically said "The Primarchs might not be on the same side they were before." 

 

That doesn't necessarily mean we'll see one of them join the opposite side. It could just as easily mean one of them stops supporting their old faction and strikes out on their own. I could see Lion going that way fairly easily. The Dark Angels Legion is a large enough faction that if he seceded from the Imperium he wouldn't be restricted to a guerilla-style resistance. And lets not kid ourselves, the Dark Angels are still very much a Legion. Just some of them go by different names. 

 

And if Russ also​ rejects the Imperium as it currently stands, ​​we could see an alliance between formerly bitter rivals (who still had a mutual respect for each other in spite of the rivalry). It would give players a third faction to work with, and it wouldn't be totally out of character for either the Space Wolves or Dark Angels. I don't think they'd turn on the Imperium, but I could see them saying "Right, screw those guys. We're going to fight Chaos on our own terms." Hell, the Space Wolves kind of do that already. We know they don't like how the Inquisition treats Imperial citizens like numbers on a spreadsheet to be disposed of at will. 

 

The only way Vulkan's allegiance shifts is if he concludes that the people of the Imperium would be protected better by someone other than the Imperium. Absolutely would NOT turn to Chaos though. 

 

What if Fabius Bile clones Ferrus Manus again and Fulgrim actually succeeds in turning that clone? Could be a cool development, especially if the real Ferrus' spirit is indeed leading the Legion of the Damned. I could see it causing issues within the Iron Hands, with some being torn between loyalty to the Imperium and loyalty to their Primarch. 

 

The Sanguinor is (imo) probably at least a portion of Sanguinius. He was a powerful enough psyker with precognitive abilities I could see how some part of him might live on in the Warp. It would also explain how the Sanguinor is able to show up exactly when and where he is needed. 

 

The kicker to the above statement is that Curze could "return" the same way. He's dead, we all know that. But if his psychic potential was strong enough part of him might survive in the warp as well. If he manifested, it would almost certainly be as a Greater Daemon. He was corrupted enough that millennia in the Warp would unhinge him even further. 

 

Those two, even if they ham-fistedly return them, aren't going to switch sides. 

 

Dorn won't switch sides. His loyalty to the Emperor is too strong. Out of all the Primarchs that could come back, he is the most likely to come back and align with Guilliman. He's practical enough to see the necessity of bringing some stability to the Imperium, whether he likes what it's become or not. 

 

The Big 4 Chaos God aligned Daemon Primarchs aren't switching sides either.

 

Mortarion might have if he'd been given the opportunity in the beginning, but he's been a Daemon Primarch for far too long for that to be possible now.

 

Angron wouldn't switch sides even if he weren't a Daemon Primarch. He hates the Emperor too much for that.

 

Fulgrim might feel some regret about how things went for him, but he's probably enjoying himself far too much to switch allegiance.

 

Magnus is another that would have switched sides in the beginning if he'd been given a chance. Remember that he didn't want to turn traitor in the first place. He was manipulated into it when Horus tricked the Russ and the Wolves into razing Prospero. Kinda feel for him in a way. 

 

Lorgar? Not a chance in hell he will switch sides. Why? Because he was the only one out of all of them that got exactly what he wanted out of the Heresy. I mean, even his initial goal of worshipping the Emperor as a god came to pass eventually. Lorgar frigging WON. 

 

Perturabo isn't changing his allegiance. Especially if Dorn comes back. In fact, Dorn's return would be the thing most likely to bring him out of wherever he's holed up at. 

 

TL;DR: 

 

All but one of the Chaos Primarchs are firmly cemented where they are. Only Omegon has any real potential for switching sides, assuming he's even still alive. 

 

The Loyal Primarchs are a little more fluid. Unlikely any of them would outright turn to Chaos, but several of them could potentially break away from the Imperium out of disgust at what it has become. Lion, Russ, and Corax are the most likely of them to do so, in my opinion. Although Corax could just as easily join Guilliman. I could see Jaghatai possibly going out on his own as well. Dorn and Vulkan would both do what they could to defend the Imperium, and set their feelings on it aside in favor of protecting humanity. 

[Semper Fortis]

^^^^ What he said.

 

Omegon switching sides (or does he?) provides a variety of potential plot twists. Everyone, some, or none believe him, with a myriad of permutations possible. He was loyal all along and finally reveals himself, but since he's not trusted and treated badly he turns.

 

I, for one, won't be a believer because Alpha Legion. 'Nuff said. :)

[Lexington]

Frankly, if they actually do it, that'll be the final proof that the writers at GW really have no idea what they're doing. This isn't Marvel/DC/pro-Wrestling, where individual characters can flop around from side to side at the drop of a hat, and the change will be retconned next season/year/special [...]

In principle, I'd agree - this is not what 40K should be doing at all. At the same time, I'd also say the writers at GW know precisely what they're doing (or at least what they've been instructed to do), and it's more or less this.

[Urriak Urruk]

Here's my take;

 

Loyal;

 

- The Lion and Russ are not turning to Chaos, but I could see them going "renegade," in a middle-finger to Guilliman's empire. Both would be salty at the whole Codex Astartes, and after reading Russ' Primarch book I think these two actually agree on more than disagree.

- If the Khan is alive he's probably been tortured by Dark Eldar for 10,000 years. And no, him fighting a guerrilla war in Commoragh for that long is ridiculous. So he's probably in a collectors box of Vect's own design, maybe released every so often for gladiatorial games. He may be so completely insane that the Dark Eldar use him, he recovers and stays loyal, or turns to Chaos in desperation.

- Dorn isn't turning to Chaos, and isn't likely to reject Guilliman either. Defense of Terra is priority 1. I could see him getting a little darker and more "Black Templar-ish" but that's it.

- Sanguinius should only return as a buffed Sanguinor, so no Chaos obviously.

- Ferrus Manus should only return as a warp construct in service to the Emperor. The clone-turned-to-Chaos I don't find likely because when cloned... he still hasn't turned! Also it's kind of hinted his soul is in the warp.

- Vulkan I don't find likely to turn from Guilliman, as Ultramar kind of represents the closest to a "nice place." Definitely not turning to Chaos.

- Corax... I dunno, his mental state was weak when entering the Eye, so maybe? It's possible but his character doesn't really support this much.

 

Traitor;

- Horus is SUPER DEAD

- Curze might be sort-of repentant when he is finally assassinated... so maybe, but it's contingent on how he survived and what he did for 10,000 years.

- The Daemon Primarchs are so far gone that their redemption would essentially only be possible at the hands of the Emperor himself, or on the verge of super-soul-deadness. So not-gonna-happen

- Omegon is the most likely Primarch to turn loyal, mostly because his motives are STILL UNKNOWN. He was against the Cabal's proposal, which means he either thought the Alpha Legion should defend the Emperor, or that Horus was right all along. The easiest of all the Primarchs to switch sides, and has a lot of plot potential. I mean, his homeworld is still unknown!

[crazyterran]

The Loyalists arent going to go traitor or give Guilliman the finger. If they have two braincells to rub in their head, they will at most question his status as Regent (though the fact he was the only one means they can hardly complain), which would be resolved by the returning Primarch and Guilliman paying the Emperor a visit.

 

Any of the loyalists would see what Guilliman is doing is the best that can be done, and all of them other than maybe the Lion would know that Guilliman is far better suited to the management of an intergalactic Imperium than they are. The Lion only wouldnt because of his pride, but I am sure Guilliman would just throw him the Warmaster bone like with what happened in Imperium Secundus.

 

If Leman Russ has turned into a giant werewolf, I could see him being his own 'Renegade but loyal' faction. Only give him the Space Wolves faction tag in game, so only the Space Wolves could bring him, since only they tolerate the Wulfen fluff wise.

 

The Khan could be leading some crazy ad hoc slave revolt fleet that includes Xenos and mutants who helped him escape Commoragh during its fall.

[jlmb_123]

It could be Russ returning with the Wolf Brothers or a full 13th Company and not aligning with the Space Wolves.

[Sete]

Yeah Guilliman throws the Lion a "bone" and gets punched in the kisser instantly.

 

The Warmaster position granted by the Emperor is completely different from being "granted" by Guilliman. They are equals. It's insulting.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Sete

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Got more chance of the starchild happening.

[Jarl Caldersson]

The Loyalists arent going to go traitor or give Guilliman the finger. If they have two braincells to rub in their head, they will at most question his status as Regent (though the fact he was the only one means they can hardly complain), which would be resolved by the returning Primarch and Guilliman paying the Emperor a visit.

Any of the loyalists would see what Guilliman is doing is the best that can be done, and all of them other than maybe the Lion would know that Guilliman is far better suited to the management of an intergalactic Imperium than they are. The Lion only wouldnt because of his pride, but I am sure Guilliman would just throw him the Warmaster bone like with what happened in Imperium Secundus.

If Leman Russ has turned into a giant werewolf, I could see him being his own 'Renegade but loyal' faction. Only give him the Space Wolves faction tag in game, so only the Space Wolves could bring him, since only they tolerate the Wulfen fluff wise.

The Khan could be leading some crazy ad hoc slave revolt fleet that includes Xenos and mutants who helped him escape Commoragh during its fall.

Guilliman has done a few things that the other primarch would blame him for. Breaking up their legions, making Primaries Marines, being received by xeno witchcraft etc etc. Sure now after he woke up and saw how much his "codex" and breaking up the legions made things worst, has he fixed things can't blame him as he was a meatcicle for awhile. He even says the Primaris are abominations, also when did he get approval from the other primarchs to make Primaris of their legions? Guilliman has overstepped his boundaries more than once and is now stomping on his brother feet. This is Guilliman flaw, similar to Magnus, he thinks he knows what is best and is arrogant toward other methods.

 

As for "only the SW tolerate the Wulfen". As much as I dislike the Wulfen fluff (and models) so far, the GK, Mechanicus, IF and a few other have credited the Wulfen as essential in the defense of Fenris system, and Cadia plus numerous rumors of them defending other places. They are not only tolerated but have been greeted rather warmly. Sure they won't be going to any parades, even the SW keep them in the basement, but they are accepted. That said I will be rather disappointed if Russ comes back as a Wulfen.

 

As Urriak Urruk said, the Lion and Russ agree on more things that not and only their honor (as different as it is) is what keep them at odds. Also with many of his other comments. I see if anything happens it will be a N. imperium and S. Imperium where N is controlled by Russ, Lion, Sanguinor (non-codex) and S is controlled by Guilliman and 2 other, my bet is dorn and vulkan. This is only due to the new map (see Dark Imperium map) there is only 6 listed SM "homeworlds" BA, SW, DA, IF, UM, Sallies. Why not have the others listed unless they weren't essential to the map.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Caldersson

[Marshal Loss]

Not going to happen.

[Jarl Caldersson]

Not going to happen.

Why I said "if anything". I see conflict within the primarchs but I don't see them going to war with each other not do I see any turning traitor. Each of the primarchs have chosen their paths and I think it's been set. It would take years of story writing to have any primarch turn to the other side.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Caldersson