How much do members of the Imperium know about daemons?

[Demonic95]

hi guys,

 

as the title says its probably common knowledge for a lot of you but i have to ask....does most of the imperium know about demons? like not the first founding chapters or second etc...but far down the line successor chapters, and general human planets? i have an idea to put into my diy chapter but it sort of relies on the imperium mostly not knowing or as a general rule anyway :) 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Oh no.  The general human populace has no idea.  Imperial preachers certainly assert that there are physical and metaphysical avatars of evil present in the universe, but the Grey Knights are considered a state secret expressly because of daemons.  Look at the aftermath of the First War of Armageddon: the Inquisition was willing to condemn millions of Imperial Guardsmen to mind-wiping and summary execution based entirely on the fact that they took to the battlefield against daemons.

[old git]

The Inquisition suppresses all knowledge of the warp and chaos as far as it can, fearing mass panic or worse, mass worship of the Dark Gods, sometimes to the extent of wiping out whole populations to stop knowledge spreading. Some old fluff said that marines are to valuable to be killed just because they have seen and fought daemons so they were merely mind scrubbed instead. I would think that the higher up the food chain you are the more likely you are to know of the threat at the very least but your average citizen would know nothing.

[Brother Tyler]

Lesser forces than the Adeptus Astartes have been wiped out after fighting against daemons in order to prevent both corruption and knowledge of the threat of the Great Enemy (the Adeptus Astartes get off light, simply being mindwiped for their pains).

 

All that said, the influence of the forces of Chaos is pervasive, leading to various cults and corruption.

 

So it's not like kiddies learn about daemons in school, but their emotions and the subtle influences of Chaos (both directly and via cults) can lead them to learn about daemons the hard way.

[Claws and Effect]

First Founding Chapters are in the know. They've already been tested against Chaos and came out okay. I mean, it would be pretty screwed up to have the Chapters that actually fought in the Heresy have the reason WHY completely scrubbed from their history. The current members of the Chapters might not know all the details, but they certainly know that half their number turned to Chaos. 

 

Second Founding Chapters, I'd say it depends on the parent chapter. Pretty sure the Black Templars, for example, are aware of daemons. 

 

In general, the younger a Chapter is, the less likely they are to know much about daemons.

 

The general populace isn't even aware of Chaos Space Marines, let alone daemons.  

Edited November 5, 2017 by Claws and Effect

[Ishagu]

The information is no longer being suppressed as of the events at the Lion's gate on Terra.

[The Doctor Of War]

First Founding Chapters are in the know. They've already been tested against Chaos and came out okay. I mean, it would be pretty screwed up to have the Chapters that actually fought in the Heresy have the reason WHY completely scrubbed from their history. The current members of the Chapters might not know all the details, but they certainly know that half their number turned to Chaos. 

 

Second Founding Chapters, I'd say it depends on the parent chapter. Pretty sure the Black Templars, for example, are aware of daemons. 

 

In general, the younger a Chapter is, the less likely they are to know much about daemons.

 

The general populace isn't even aware of Chaos Space Marines, let alone daemons.  

 

Black Templars definitely know about them. 'Shadowsword' by Guy Haley brings up the topic, a lot of chapters mindwipe any of their Brothers who face daemons, but the Black Templars refuse to do so. They feel it's a waste of resources - the mindwiped Marine would have to be retrained - and that true faith should be tested.

The Guard in the book on the other hand are expected to give themselves up for summary execution after witnessing anything daemonic. And if the Guard are considered expendable - even highly trained tank crew in the example of 'Shadowsword' - then i'd hate to see what the Imperium would do to any Imperial citizen who learned the truth about the Warp.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Retconned Legion

[Leif Bearclaw]

As always it depends on the source you're looking at. In recent Inquisition/GK fluff, no they don't and it's a capital offence toknow anything. But then there's plenty of examples of Guardsmen, Space Marines etc. who do know enough about Daemons. A good example is the Catachan Regiment in Pandorax, where the Colonel knows enough stories from returned veterans and legends to know roughly what Bloodthirster is, but not that it's called a Bloodthirster (until the GKs rock up and tell him). It actually makes the Grey Knights seem really lawful stupid (you can make arguments about 'Grimdark', but this one is just stupid imo), as knowing about the GKs is actually more hazardous for your helath/mind than knowing Daemons exist.

[N1SB]

What a great question and conversation.  As with all seemingly easy questions in 40k, the answer is always very complex in the grimdark far future.

 

There's basically 2 excellent and correct schools of thought here.  The cause might have been due to artistic license, but they're there in the pre-8th lore:

 

1. The Inquisition severely clamps down on knowledge of Chaos (example - 1st world of Armageddon, they effectively imprisoned/castrated all the Guardsmen)

 

2. But there are still soldiers out there who know about Chaos Daemons (more on this later)

 

And I think the compromise is as follows:

 

3. Those same soldiers...or their officers...know to shut up and cover up that information in front of the higher-ups

 

Ironically, it's commonly known that to succeed/survive in the Imperium, one must BE or at least ACT ignorant.  No one wants a visit from the Inquisition.  So a general would likely fabricate his reports so those Daemons they fought were, say, just some funny Xenos, like Orks covered in different colours of paint.  Nothing to see here!

 

(Meanwhile, those officers that do speak up simply disappear.  What unit?  What military records?  You are hereby forbidden to talk about that army that doesn't exist.)

 

I think this is the best way to negotiate the differences in these conflicting attitudes in earlier lore, but what about now?

 

 

+++++

 

 

In 8th ed, though, there has been either a change or perhaps just an exception that proves the rule.  The novel that, at this moment, expands on the status quo of 8th edition the most is probably Dark Imperium.  And in there, the secret about Chaos is basically out...yet still technically forbidden.

 

One of the storylines in there is about an Astra Militarum Guardsman recovering from fighting the Death Guard in the Ultramar area.  He knows about the Heretic Astartes and is talking about them with another soldier, referring to them only as "the plague lords".  As said in above posts, they don't know the details.

 

The most telling thing is they talk about the Great Rift, the one that's cut the Imperium apart.  One Guardsman tells him not to mention it, that it's forbidden.  The other points up at the sky AT the Great Rift, as they can see it with the naked eye, while the other is still insisting they shouldn't look at what is blatantly right there!

 

This wasn't happening in some hidden trench.  It was on a world Roboute Guilliman set aside for wounded Guardsman to recover, so he must have anticipated these survivors were going to swap stories about fighting Chaos.  At the same time, Roboute Guilliman in this novel resents the Emperor a bit for failing to prepare him and the whole Imperium about Chaos, by deliberately keeping everyone ignorant.  So he might have a very different attitude than, say, the Inquisition.

 

 

+++++

 

 

That conversation between the 2 Guardsmen is very telling of the state of the Imperium right now.  It seems like Chaos is attacking everywhere, there's a billion campaigns like Konor after Cadia fell, but it really highlights how the general public is kept ignorant, even in the face of obvious evidence.

 

This is the joke of the grimdark far future, how the mankind survives not despite of their ignorance, but because of it.

[Gentlemanloser]

To the astartes in general, the Grey Knights can no longer be a secret.

 

Not since Guilliman traveled the galaxy with a GK Grand Master at his side (Voldus), and he spread the GK throughout his great crusade fleet.

 

What the general peons of the imperium know however, would vary intently on thier situation and home world.

[Lexington]

There's basically 2 excellent and correct schools of thought here. The cause might have been due to artistic license, but they're there in the pre-8th lore:

 

1. The Inquisition severely clamps down on knowledge of Chaos (example - 1st world of Armageddon, they effectively imprisoned/castrated all the Guardsmen)

 

2. But there are still soldiers out there who know about Chaos Daemons (more on this later)

 

And I think the compromise is as follows:

 

3. Those same soldiers...or their officers...know to shut up and cover up that information in front of the higher-ups.

This explanation makes sense (and the dark humor behind it is very 40K), and would doubtlessly be somewhat truthful, but I think the simple size of the Imperium has more to do with it. However vigilant the Inquisition might be, no matter how unimaginably vast its resources, the Imperium is unimaginably vaster. It's a broad but thinly-connected galactic empire of a million worlds which no one map contains, where both travel and communication are both notoriously slow and frustratingly unreliable. The Inquisition's policy may be utter suppression of heretical knowledge, but it doesn't have its eye on every world at every minute Even if it did, it's up to individual Inqusitors to enforce that policy, and you know how independent-minded they are...

[Xenith]

 I mean, it would be pretty screwed up to have the Chapters that actually fought in the Heresy have the reason WHY completely scrubbed from their history.

 

And that's why it's so beautifully GrimDark.

 

All these million warriors fighting a war began by their ancestors, the beginning of which is rumour, myth and legend.

 

Most Space Marines would know little detail about the heresy, just broad strokes.

[Gentlemanloser]

I can't recall any instance of any founding chapter marine being mind wiped.

 

The chapter masters certainly haven't, and most if not all have glorious stories of facing off daemons or reforging daemon weapons into thier own.

 

And i doubt people like Logan and Marneus would just let thier marines be mind wiped.

 

I'm sure the entire space wolf chapter knows of the Thousand Sons.

 

And the blood angels certainly know how sanginus died and by whom.

 

Heck the Dark Angels make thier living from knowing about heretic marines. ;)

 

Some far flung sucessor chapter out at the edge of the galaxy might be in the dark, sure. Unless they've stumbled across things in the dark to make them question...

 

Also, gellar fields. What's the lore on the knowledge of them and what you need to be protected from while travelling the warp?

Edited November 6, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I would submit that there is general knowledge about daemons, but that the knowledge is kept secret. Does that make sense? Some people know what daemons are, but they don't hang out on the streets telling others about it. If/when they do, the =][= comes a-knocking. 

 

Wasn't there a bit in some publication that said that daemons look the way they do because that's how they're expected to look? Doesn't that necessarily mean there must be some wider knowledge than just three or four Spehss Mahreens? 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Res Ipsa Loquitur

[The Doctor Of War]

I would submit that there is general knowledge about daemons, but that the knowledge is kept secret. Does that make sense? Some people know what daemons are, but they don't hang out on the streets telling others about it. If/when they do, the =][= comes a-knocking. 

 

Wasn't there a bit in some publication that said that daemons look the way they do because that's how they're expected to look? Doesn't that necessarily mean there must be some wider knowledge than just three or four Spehss Mahreens? 

 

It does seem to vary from world to world. The Paragonians in 'Shadowsword' had heard legends of daemons, but thought they were just that - legends. When they saw the real thing, some argued that they must be some kind of xenos. But then you have other worlds, like one of the Eisenhorn short stories, where the existence of daemons is known well enough for certain paranoid adepts to believe they'd accidentally summoned one.

 

You're right on the daemons looking the way they do due to the beliefs of the observer. It's also the reasoning i use for painting Primaris Legion of the Damned - if they are based upon the beliefs of Imperial citizens, then naturally their form would change to reflect the new marine paradigm.

[Master Commander Ajax]

This is a good question! As others said have said I think it varies. The Astra Millitarium regiments which fought during the first war on Armageddon were quarantined and sterilised BUT were left with their memories (and lives) intact. This was, admittedly from earlier fluff. Later they were hunted down and killed after an attempted rescue mission by the Space Wolves and then we had the mind wipe/extermination protocols from the Grey Knight Codex. It does, however, illustrate a degree of leniency.

 

My DIY Chapter is one of the Astartes Praeses and has a relatively good insight into the true nature of Daemons (or how to kill them at least). This knowledge is the results of thousands of years of conflict in and around the Eye and has been passed down through generations in the form Folklore.

[Trevak Dal]

 

 

I mean, it would be pretty screwed up to have the Chapters that actually fought in the Heresy have the reason WHY completely scrubbed from their history.

And that's why it's so beautifully GrimDark.

 

All these million warriors fighting a war began by their ancestors, the beginning of which is rumour, myth and legend.

 

Most Space Marines would know little detail about the heresy, just broad strokes.

At the core or their being, Astartes are weapon systems, teched up servitors with semi free will and better tactics and training.

 

If not for the human element, would they care about why their ancestors fought against the traitors, or is the fact that they are traitors against the Emperor enough?

[Claws and Effect]

I suppose it would depend on the Chapter in question.

 

For a young Chapter, it probably would not matter much at all.

 

For the First and Second Founding Chapters, whose recorded history actually goes back far enough to contain first hand accounts from their past brothers and Primarch himself, it would likely matter a great deal.

[N1SB]

 

There's basically 2 excellent and correct schools of thought here. The cause might have been due to artistic license, but they're there in the pre-8th lore:

 

1. The Inquisition severely clamps down on knowledge of Chaos (example - 1st world of Armageddon, they effectively imprisoned/castrated all the Guardsmen)

 

2. But there are still soldiers out there who know about Chaos Daemons (more on this later)

 

And I think the compromise is as follows:

 

3. Those same soldiers...or their officers...know to shut up and cover up that information in front of the higher-ups.

This explanation makes sense (and the dark humor behind it is very 40K), and would doubtlessly be somewhat truthful, but I think the simple size of the Imperium has more to do with it. However vigilant the Inquisition might be, no matter how unimaginably vast its resources, the Imperium is unimaginably vaster. It's a broad but thinly-connected galactic empire of a million worlds which no one map contains, where both travel and communication are both notoriously slow and frustratingly unreliable. The Inquisition's policy may be utter suppression of heretical knowledge, but it doesn't have its eye on every world at every minute Even if it did, it's up to individual Inqusitors to enforce that policy, and you know how independent-minded they are...

 

 

Yeah, I think the vastness of space as well as that of Imperium bureaucracy and poor communications is the biggest factor, leading me to refine my statement:

 

3. Those same soldiers...or their officers...know to shut up and cover up that information in front of the higher-ups.

 

3. The Inquisition could only clamp down on you if you get CAUGHT

 

An Imperial soldier can be clever enough fudge reports or just lucky enough not to be in the wrong place/wrong time and say thing wrong thing, and even then they're not top priority for any competent Inquisitor.  Actually, anyone working in a large organisation knows they've done something out-of-compliance, but no one notices.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

 

There's basically 2 excellent and correct schools of thought here. The cause might have been due to artistic license, but they're there in the pre-8th lore:

 

1. The Inquisition severely clamps down on knowledge of Chaos (example - 1st world of Armageddon, they effectively imprisoned/castrated all the Guardsmen)

 

2. But there are still soldiers out there who know about Chaos Daemons (more on this later)

 

And I think the compromise is as follows:

 

3. Those same soldiers...or their officers...know to shut up and cover up that information in front of the higher-ups.

This explanation makes sense (and the dark humor behind it is very 40K), and would doubtlessly be somewhat truthful, but I think the simple size of the Imperium has more to do with it. However vigilant the Inquisition might be, no matter how unimaginably vast its resources, the Imperium is unimaginably vaster. It's a broad but thinly-connected galactic empire of a million worlds which no one map contains, where both travel and communication are both notoriously slow and frustratingly unreliable. The Inquisition's policy may be utter suppression of heretical knowledge, but it doesn't have its eye on every world at every minute Even if it did, it's up to individual Inqusitors to enforce that policy, and you know how independent-minded they are...

Yeah, I think the vastness of space as well as that of Imperium bureaucracy and poor communications is the biggest factor, leading me to refine my statement:

 

3. Those same soldiers...or their officers...know to shut up and cover up that information in front of the higher-ups.

 

3. The Inquisition could only clamp down on you if you get CAUGHT

 

An Imperial soldier can be clever enough fudge reports or just lucky enough not to be in the wrong place/wrong time and say thing wrong thing, and even then they're not top priority for any competent Inquisitor. Actually, anyone working in a large organisation knows they've done something out-of-compliance, but no one notices.

I think the people in the Realm of Ultramar are one of the exceptions. They certainly know more about daemons than most Imperials

 

Especially since Honsou's Invasion

 

The Inquisition would not purge anybody from Ultramar for the outright obvious fact that daemons exist

 

Especially since the people of Ultramar are much more honest than most people

 

 

They don't purge anybody from Cadia because they know daemons exist

 

It is a case-by-case basis with a lot of exceptions

 

 

If they kill every non-Ultramar, non-Tanith, non-Krieg and non-Cadian Guardsmen:

 

-Trillions more would die (more Guardsmen executed and less protection for citizens)

 

-More incentive for Guardsmen to defect (and at the worst time for the Imperium)

 

 

"Hey dude, those grey Astartes and that :cussing Inquisitor will kill us just like the rest" says one Commander

 

"Let's kill them first. :cuss the Imperium!" says another Commander

 

 

Cue the Grey Knights receiving artillery strikes and tank rush from the Guard

 

Honestly, the Exorcist are much better for IG morale since their appearance don't lead to purges

 

 

Guardsmen would distrust the Grey Knights which has negative consequences in the novels

 

Trust, respect and obedience is what binds and keeps the Imperium alive

 

You can't suppress information fully

 

 

 

Heck, the BLACK LEGION knows of both the Grey Knights and Fallen Angels (Fallen Astartes do join them)

 

 

Why don't they use that information? Because PIS

 

 

Imagine if the secrets of the Dark Angels came out right before the 1st Black Crusade?

 

 

 

The Imperium would have to arrest the Dark Angels and their successors

 

The 1st Black Crusade does more damage to the Imperium

 

DA and their successors are sent to the Eye of Terror for penance

 

 

Dark Angels are gone. Several Chaos Warbands are formed from those corrupted

 

Rock confiscated. Luther is killed. Lion is found

 

The Fallen do more damage to the Imperium

 

 

The War of the Beast finishes them off (Not enough Primaris Marines to replace the Dark Angels or their successors)

 

The Six Prime Orks either kill the Emperor or destroy the Golden Throne...

 

...which results in every star/planet in the solar system to become a Daemon World

 

Black Legion overwhelms Cadia and destroys the Necron Pylons

 

 

Great Rift happens

 

 

Vulkan takes over the Imperium Remnants

 

 

Three way war between Chaos, Orks and Eldar

[Lexington]

Heck, the BLACK LEGION knows of both the Grey Knights and Fallen Angels (Fallen Astartes do join them)

Why don't they use that information?

Because for 99.99999999999999999% of the Imperium, the response would be "what the hell is a 'Dark Angel'?"

Edited November 10, 2017 by Lexington

[SpAcEGhOsT095]

The only Marines I can think of that were mind wiped pre-heresy were the Space Wolves. This was before Ullanor, so it was probably at the direct command of the Emperor, with only the highest ranking members of the Rout exempt. It could be argued that it established a precedent that could be used in the future. It might explain why some chapters have fragmented histories and others have no recollection of battles that some claim they were part of. 

[gideon stargreave]

You seen Game of Thrones? 
 

Grumpkins 

[Iron Lord]

The Ciaphas Cain books (The Traitor's Hand) is a good example of "Guards who have seen daemons, shot at daemons, and not been executed or mind wiped" And Cain openly admits to having called down an artillery strike on a daemonhost.

[Leonaides]

Only when he'd got on the good side of an inquisitor. The story with the daemonhost he never admitted at the time/called it something else.