Chapter Approved changes and what they mean for SM

[Hopper21]

So happy Fire raptor has dropped. Base drop by 60pts. Not looked for any weapon difference yet tho.

[Ishagu]

The Primaris options are all now worthwhile.

 

Inceptors are excellent. Intercessors are point for point better than Tacticals. Even the Aggressors are good with 5 for under 200 points :-D

 

The more common Forgeworld units were improved: Storm Eagle, Fire Raptor, Sicaran Variants. All great news.

By my calculations a Sicaran Venator is 230 points with full upgrades - imo this is now the best Marine Tank/Monster hunter by some margin. The only minor downside is the relic limitation.

 

Regular Sicaran is now 215 with Las Cannons! This is pretty darn competitive.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Ishagu

[CCE1981]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb5U_nflpU2/

 

Looks like the leaks were true. Well, Primaris just got a reason to exist. Well, except the Redemptor. That one is still too expensive. Looks like some lists need a restructuring. Guilliman is not to be seen here, but assuming the leak was correct, given the point here, we have his point costs in the original post.

 

Thoughts?

lol, on average Imperial Armor: Adeptus Astartes raised point values.  The Sokar, Thunderhawk Gunship, and Thunderhawk Transporter really throw that curve out of whack.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well, those massive overblown Super-Heavier have no business being in 2000pts lists.

 

I think those changes are pretty well done. For example, the ever-popular core of 5 Tacs + 5 Razorbacks with TLAC + Raven + Guilliman is not 121 more expensive. The Guilliman change is not big enough to make him bad, but in combination with other price hikes, people will need to adjust. However, if you insist on playing Guilliman, you can make due with cheaper stuff now like Primaris or other vehicles, creating more diverse lists.

 

Speaking of Primaris. Intercessors are now really solid. I may move from 10 Ints + 10 Scouts to 15 or 20 Ints and 10 Scouts. The bodies are nice and durable. There may also be a case to look at Rapid Fire once again, as saving 20pts across those units may be pretty good. Though Assault 2 is still more powerful in terms of output.

 

However, with Assault Hellblasters now being 2ppm more expensive than the Rapid Fire ones, I recon it may be time to re-evaluate. The alpha strike is definitely higher with the Assault 2, unless you somehow manage to get into 15" T1. Though at 10pts per 5 models, that increased output may need to go. If I drop the Assault 2 weapons in my current list I will save 42pts with these new changes. That's a lot.

[Ishagu]

I actually think that Primaris can now make a pretty nasty reserves strike force. Multiple Inceptor units coming down would be pretty good. Edited November 25, 2017 by Ishagu

[Frater Cornelius]

I actually think that Primaris can now make a pretty nasty reserves strike force. Multiple Inceptor units coming down would be pretty nasty.

 

Even at 135pts I have reservations. We are still talking about a total of 6 T5 3+ wounds. We are in Dreadnought territory here. I might try Aggressors as they cost 111pts per 3 dudes though. Inceptors though? Not sure.

[Ishagu]

No I think that's right for a high mobility unit that will arrive and shoot before it can be targeted.

 

3 squads for 405 points. That's 36 Heavy Bolter shots and the ability to deploy anywhere.

[Frater Cornelius]

Why would Primaris need even more anti-infantry? It works with Guilliman, but Inceptors can not reply on Guilliman. But outside UM, don't Primaris have enough S4 and S5?

[Schlitzaf]

I see deploying them alongside a two Reivar Units to threaten backfield better. And provide a better punch then the two Reivars did alone.

[Frater Cornelius]

Another thing take comes to mind is the Dakka Pred. You pay 130 for a Pred with an Autocannon and 150 if you add the HB sponsons. Given that the new Razorback is 114pts and if the transport capacity does not matter to you, it may be a worthwhile replacement, especially for Primaris armies. I consider the Venerable Dread still the superior tank-buster to the AutoLas adn QuadLas Pred though, outside of Chronus maybe.

[SydonianDragoon404]

So are plasma Inceptors still too expensive? 

[Ishagu]

Not at all. 177 for 3 of them.

 

A comparable unit is Scions who come out at 138ish? but have less shots on average with worse AP.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Ishagu

[Nusquam]

I'm confused as to why the Fellblade and Falchion went up in price. The Fellblade body with cannon is 150 points more than a Baneblade chassis+cannon (both before other weapons, so just body and main gun). For +1T/BS, and  2+ but no Chapter Tactics? Why are the SM tanks so expensive while the Guard LoWs are so cheap and good? If the Bane-family got a massive hike I could understand, but it is only the FW LoWs that got it.

You get what you pay for in the double quad las for sure. But the main cannon is currently almost identical in output, or worse depending on target. So that can't cost more.

 

My Aggressors, Tartaros, and Inceptors got cheaper which is amazing. They already do so well with Raven Guard CT and Stratagems. This caught me by surprise.

 

So my tourny list got better, but my desire to collect marine LoWs took a serious hit.

[CCE1981]

I'm confused as to why the Fellblade and Falchion went up in price. The Fellblade body with cannon is 150 points more than a Baneblade chassis+cannon (both before other weapons, so just body and main gun). For +1T/BS, and 2+ but no Chapter Tactics? Why are the SM tanks so expensive while the Guard LoWs are so cheap and good? If the Bane-family got a massive hike I could understand, but it is only the FW LoWs that got it.

You get what you pay for in the double quad las for sure. But the main cannon is currently almost identical in output, or worse depending on target. So that can't cost more.

 

My Aggressors, Tartaros, and Inceptors got cheaper which is amazing. They already do so well with Raven Guard CT and Stratagems. This caught me by surprise.

 

So my tourny list got better, but my desire to collect marine LoWs took a serious hit.

Verify turret costs, the hull might have gone up but the overall price might be less.

[Nusquam]

 

I'm confused as to why the Fellblade and Falchion went up in price. The Fellblade body with cannon is 150 points more than a Baneblade chassis+cannon (both before other weapons, so just body and main gun). For +1T/BS, and 2+ but no Chapter Tactics? Why are the SM tanks so expensive while the Guard LoWs are so cheap and good? If the Bane-family got a massive hike I could understand, but it is only the FW LoWs that got it.

You get what you pay for in the double quad las for sure. But the main cannon is currently almost identical in output, or worse depending on target. So that can't cost more.

 

My Aggressors, Tartaros, and Inceptors got cheaper which is amazing. They already do so well with Raven Guard CT and Stratagems. This caught me by surprise.

 

So my tourny list got better, but my desire to collect marine LoWs took a serious hit.

Verify turret costs, the hull might have gone up but the overall price might be less.

 

 

The overall price is definitely up. If that's the cost before turrets/2xQLC/Demolisher then it's even worse. That means the base cost is higher than the previously fully kitted one

 

Edit: Saw a clearer leak. Fellblade is 917 points and the Falchion is 1,017. Without a substantial buff they are at unplayable points costs. This means that I'll go for Sicarans first in the future after CA.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Nusquam

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Did all chainfists drop to 14 points, or just those for Chaos?

[Frater Cornelius]

That is the point. Most super-heavies are supposed to be unplayable at 2000 and lower. Interestingly, the Primaris SH did not get a price hike, but it is still too weak to be played.

 

On a related note, I find it really hard to write new lists now :D

[Ishagu]

It's actually really dumb what they've done.

 

I will not buy the Astraeus now because tomorrow they might hike it to 1000 points or something stupid.

 

They've punished a few units whilst abuses like horror spam are unaffected.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

That's why I never recommend buying a model for its rules. If you buy a model, especially an expensive one or one that requires a lot of time and effort investment like FW's large kits, it should be because you love the model enough that you'd want one to build and maybe even play even if it had terrible rules.

[Ishagu]

It's one thing buying something because it's super competitive.

It's another wanting it to simply be playable.

[Nusquam]

That is the point. Most super-heavies are supposed to be unplayable at 2000 and lower. Interestingly, the Primaris SH did not get a price hike, but it is still too weak to be played.

On a related note, I find it really hard to write new lists now :D

That doesnt make any sense when Lord of Skulls got cheaper and baneblades are still xheap and good. Fellblades are just marine Baneblades. Why did guard get a pass to stay competitive?

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Why did every other codex get sub-faction traits applied to their vehicles except the Marine factions?  It feels like they're trying to push Marines as an infantry army and Guard as a tank army.

[Ishagu]

What about Eldar? They get the best of everything including hard to hit walkers that tower over buildings lol.

 

There is one massive negative to Chapter Approved; I was about to buy the new Astraeus Tank but I'm currently renovating a house so my free time and income have been drained. I made a conscious effort to set some money aside for the resin goodness over the last 2 months. I was literally going to order it yesterday as a job well done present to myself.

Now, with CA, it's possible that this time next year that model might have it's cost doubled for no apparent reason. It's not even a particularly powerful unit - I just like to know that a large investment like these giant FW Tanks aren't going to be written out of most games at a whim with releases like Chapter Approved.

 

As a result I'm not buying it. If I make the effort to buy, build and paint a model, for me personally, it's not just a collection piece. I look at the Fellblade, THawk, Super Chicken etc and they've been neutered. Tanks like the Typhon make no sense to have their costs increased.

 

Maybe the 2018 version wilk fix things but I'll have to wait and see what it does.

[Nusquam]

It's one thing buying something because it's super competitive.

It's another wanting it to simply be playable.

This. I buy model first, story second, and game third. But the game is still a factor into where I invest my money. If I can't play it then it negatively affects my decision to purchase. There is a difference between a Banebane equivalent and a Reaver titan. The bigger kits are obviously apoc only and that is an investment for someone who plays apoc frequently. A Fellblade, as-is, not worth more than ~550 points. Definitely not 900+. I can just Take a Tallarn Hellhammer(Dont even need the Regiment rules) and outflank it. Save points and money.

 

Why did every other codex get sub-faction traits applied to their vehicles except the Marine factions?  It feels like they're trying to push Marines as an infantry army and Guard as a tank army.

I also don't understand this either. I almost thought for sure CA would change this. But then again I though "Fellblades and Falchions are so overcosted and baneblades and shadowswords are so strong and cheap they must give the Fell family a massive points discount."

 

I don't understand GWs logic. It's all over the place. My Raptors got a little better, so that's one thing at least.

[Ishagu]

The Raptor is very attractive now, imo.

Around 360 points with Twin Las Cannons on the wings. It has immense firepower