Chapter Approved changes and what they mean for SM

[The Unseen]

What about Chaos though. Outside of Primarch tag teams, it is one of the fluffier options and fun to play against.

Don't care.

It's what Open and Narrative play is for.

If you've got a cool and fun to play against blended army list, you won't have problems finding people to play games with.

Yeah it's fluffy, but it just leads to cherry picking and stuff like primarch tag teams in matched.

[Ishagu]

Chaos is powerful enough without any allying or mixing.

 

A chaos army has full in-detachment access to cheap numerous infantry, super powerful elite units and everything in between.

 

Also better stratagems, fun Forge-World units and varied ways to play.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Ishagu

[Schlitzaf]

Unseen, I didn’t say components of soup should be nerfed. The components of soup should have instrinic weakness that you shore up with your soup elements. In that case what should Space Marines do?

 

What should Space Marine bring to the table? Both as a stand alone force and as part of a soup?

 

I admit I tend to competitiveness, but I love allies, I have Vostroyan Force, a converted up Bretonnian Force and my own Black Templars that I play together in every game. My Templars lack range, which I could easily shore up with Devestator Squads, but I bring my Vostroyans instead.

 

My Pony Units give me the ability to outflank forcing my foe to spread out. I could do the same thing with Reivars. Take 3 more Reivar Squads or even Assault Marines/Interceptors. But my Ponies give me flavor and more.

 

But I don’t want to be limited to taking them to only apoc again. Allies are part of the game and should be understood as such. Soup within the mechanics exist to shore up weakness of their component parts for in theory a Jack of All Trades scenario. However due to Jack of all Trading, they give up specialization or focus.

 

My army is not the CC Monster or has the durability associated with Black Templars. With my center and primary force consisting of 2 Intercessors and 2 Crusader Squads. But a full Templar likely has more CC Potential. Now then let’s try this question again.

 

What should be the pure marine force be lacking?

What should the allied marine force bring to the table?

 

Once those two questions are answered, we get about to fixing the issues.

[Captain Idaho]

I like a stand alone Space Marines army so I shouldn't be punished because a minority take Imperium units to make a more competetive list.

 

That's an issue with the Key Word system that could easily be fixed. Like "if an army has more than one Faction Key Words it cannot use any of the Warlord Traits, Relics or Stratagems from any specific faction."

 

Exceptions being made for the Auxiliary Detachment.

 

Sounds harsh but if you are removing the weaknesses if armies it's actually fairly balanced.

[Frater Cornelius]

I like a stand alone Space Marines army so I shouldn't be punished because a minority take Imperium units to make a more competetive list.

 

That's an issue with the Key Word system that could easily be fixed. Like "if an army has more than one Faction Key Words it cannot use any of the Warlord Traits, Relics or Stratagems from any specific faction."

 

Exceptions being made for the Auxiliary Detachment.

 

Sounds harsh but if you are removing the weaknesses if armies it's actually fairly balanced.

 

That is how AoS handles it. You have 400pts allies at 2000pts and that is it. Beyond that, if the faction keyword differ, you lose all the faction bonuses.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I like a stand alone Space Marines army so I shouldn't be punished because a minority take Imperium units to make a more competetive list.

 

That's an issue with the Key Word system that could easily be fixed. Like "if an army has more than one Faction Key Words it cannot use any of the Warlord Traits, Relics or Stratagems from any specific faction."

 

Exceptions being made for the Auxiliary Detachment.

 

Sounds harsh but if you are removing the weaknesses if armies it's actually fairly balanced.

 

The keyword system is not being put to good use in terms of curbing unintentional gaminess. In addition to suggestions like those, you can also do things like "Pick one secondary faction keyword. Only units from that faction can score or contest" or something like that. Or only one subfaction's auras work. Suddenly bringing those cheesy troops doesn't sound so appealing. Suddenly dumb soup lists are scrambling to figure out how to get victory points. Suddenly everyone is going to bring more realistic armies, like IG and a couple SM, or SM and a couple IG, rather than Asassin Temples, Living Saint, Primarch.

[The Wolfguard]

I've scanned through most of this thread and don't have the book yet, but was there any drop pod changes then? Just a point decrease or anything good?

[Frater Cornelius]

I've scanned through most of this thread and don't have the book yet, but was there any drop pod changes then? Just a point decrease or anything good?

 

10pts drop. Insufficient, to be fair. No rule changes.

[The Wolfguard]

Oh poo, that's disappointing to say the least anyway. Back to the drawing board then!

[Galron]

HOLY SHNIKEES! The Typhon went the opposite direction. I thought it was waaay overpriced at 550 and needed at least a 150 point drop and they bumped it UP 200 points? Is GW purposely overpricing models in order to push their own line and put FW out of business by making FW stuff unusable by points?

[Lemondish]

HOLY SHNIKEES! The Typhon went the opposite direction. I thought it was waaay overpriced at 550 and needed at least a 150 point drop and they bumped it UP 200 points? Is GW purposely overpricing models in order to push their own line and put FW out of business by making FW stuff unusable by points?

That wouldn't make sense considering it's the same company.

[Ishagu]

HOLY SHNIKEES! The Typhon went the opposite direction. I thought it was waaay overpriced at 550 and needed at least a 150 point drop and they bumped it UP 200 points? Is GW purposely overpricing models in order to push their own line and put FW out of business by making FW stuff unusable by points?

Doesn't seem this way. A lot of FW units had point reductions.

[Galron]

Sicarans did but others skyrocketted for no reason. Even the Caestus went up and I think I might be the only one using it and not in a competitive environment. While my primaris went down for the most part, my other armies got absolutely screwed. Typhon is in my chaos army by I occasisonally run them as Silver Skulls so it applies. All my eldar FW went up, almost all of my FW IG stuff went up drastically. FW superheavies went up drastically almost across the board.

[Captain Idaho]

Not wanting to ignite the Forge World debate but that stuff is incredibly powerful and should be balanced with the rest of the game.

 

****

 

Going by what I'm seeing in the new releases, I can't help but feel Codex Space Marines is suffering from "1st Codex" Syndrome. Currently the rules for Blood Angels just makes them superior Space Marines, since they get EVERYTHING we get but also ALL the Stratagems are made for their army. Codex Dark Angels will likely be the same.

 

Space Marines Stratagems are made for 7 or so different armies and themes all rolled into one as well as hold overs from the Formations rules.

 

Chapter Approved for me is a little disappointing in that it didn't Quantum Leap 40K enough; put right what once went wrong.

 

Maybe after Codex Primaris we'll see a new Codex Space Marines that has more focussed and usable flavour.

[LucidNinja]

Chapter approved has dropped right at the start of a slow grow I'm in so now I have to paint more

[shandwen]

The CA FW points changes just highlight how bad FW is at appropriately pointing units. Nearly all the astra militarum units are garbage compared to baneblades/shadowswords from the codex, and many other superheavies are garbage compared to Lehman russes...

The bulk of these points modifications seem marvelous, mainly adjustments on power armoured peeps, but the FW ones seem off.

[Rik Lightstar]

The Forgeworld point changes tally perfectly with the inclusion of Apocalypse rules in Chapter Approved.

 

For Apocalypse they recommend using Power Levels and not points. And these have remained the same. They just want to reduce people taking these things to 1500 point tournaments.

 

Rik

[Galron]

GW did the point changes not FW, I dont think FW would have priced them to the point no one would buy them. Like I said before, the Typhon was 150 points over priced when it was 550(w/ 2 lascannons) but instead of bringing it down in points so it could be used, they hiked it 200 points. Rule of cool is great and all but that's an entire squad of something decent I could have had. So I played it by the old points the other night and wrapped it in bubblewrap and placed it in a labeled box on my shelf where it will sit for the foreseeable future. But not everything was a Superheavy that was nerfed and they didn't up-price the GW superheavies to where they need to be. Eldar got hit just as bad and the FW guard regiments got hit pretty hard as well. To me, this nonsensical point price hike was nothing more than an intentional slap in the face from the GW staff to the FW staff and makes me wonder if they, like many competing departments, don't really like each other and work to screw each other over.

[Nusquam]

There's no way FW LoWs should have been priced into oblivion when the Bane-family is still priced competitively. Especially when multiple Primarchs can be taken in a 2k list with a Lord of Skulls as well and also be competitive. It makes no sense at all.

 

Not wanting to ignite the Forge World debate but that stuff is incredibly powerful and should be balanced with the rest of the game.
 

 

This was only true for exactly two units: the Malefic Lord and Alphabet Bird. All the LoWs that were severely overcosted to begin with and almost doubled in points. But then the Sicaran family got a major, and much needed, discount.

 

I would say that the old LoWs are being phased out indirectly to make room for new stuff but even the Astraeus is overpriced in pints by over a hundred. But Hanlons Razor could apply here in that case.

 

There is no logic that I can follow here. It's not to push LoWs into Apoc, the Bane family is still undercosted. I can understand them wanting to sell Primarchs. But the poor Fellblade; the only reason the Baneblad/Hellhammer aren't strictly better is that it has 8 lascannons strapped to it. Still wasn't worth 717 points then, not worth 917 now. Before the lascannons however, when you compare chassis/maingun to chassis/maingun the Baneblade outperforms the Fellblade despite being 150 points cheaper. Valhallan>T+1/Sv+1 and 3d6 S9 Cannon at BS4+ is identical to the BS3+ AP mode of the Accelerator Cannon and better than the HE mode. Once the Fellblade drops to BS4+, it's main cannon is worse in both bodes.

 

tl;dr

 

This means that for SM, we have exactly one two LoWs** that isn't unplayable: Roboute Guilliman and Spartans. And that we will see Shadowswords constantly on the scene. We can't outperform the Shadowsword in a 1v1 with any vehicle, or unit, or anything for 404 points or less unless it can be deployed via reserves for a guaranteed alpha strike. So we need high power synergy  from reserve units dropping in. Even an optimized drop of Plasma Stern to do 12 wounds to a Banechassis is almost 200 points more than the banechassis when you factor in characters. Thats the closest thing I can find in the SM range to counter a banechassis. Nothing performs better for the points

 

**I keep forgetting the Spartan isn't a Heavy Support anymore because I don't use one. It didn't get the nerf bat.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Nusquam

[Captain Idaho]

I don't like Super Heavies so I have no concerns. Most matched play players don't use Forge World anyway, let alone Super Heavies.

 

It's just not fun to rock up with 2000pts designed to fight a range of infantry, monsters and a couple vehicles then a FW player sticks down 2 Scorpius, a Sicarian and a Mastadon.

 

*shrugs*

[Galron]

A bit of a generalization there Idaho. We only play matched play and most of us have some sort of FW models or armies. True only a couple of us have FW superheavies(me included) but mostly its because standard GW SHs are so much more points efficient and effective than FW SHs.

[Nusquam]

I don't like Super Heavies so I have no concerns. Most matched play players don't use Forge World anyway, let alone Super Heavies.

 

It's just not fun to rock up with 2000pts designed to fight a range of infantry, monsters and a couple vehicles then a FW player sticks down 2 Scorpius, a Sicarian and a Mastadon.

 

*shrugs*

 

I would have to disagree to the first statement. Even the GW Grand Tournament packet allows FW. I've played across the US and only two places didn't allow FW at the time(they do now). My own experiences aside all the major circuits allow FW.

 

Also the baneblade family>FW Marine LoW family. But I see them get a free pass because they're not FW(anymore). I'm going to keep driving this point home because I find it ridiculous that GW Lords of War (Gman, Magnus, Morty, Lord of Skulls, Banefamily)can be competitively costed but a worse equivalent(Fellblade/Falchion) in resin is has a "it deserved it" undertone. GW releases OP/undercosted stuff constantly(7E Eldar being the biggest offender) but if FW slips up and has one or two, that also get fixed, the whole FW range is bad.

 

Also Mastadons are pretty bad in all fairness. Their rules are OK but they cost way too many points.

 

As for Sicarans** and Scorpius' there's my point: they didn't get a massive points influx. The Fellblade was a worse baneblade yet it's unplayable now. Sicarans were overcosted too, but weren't unplayable. Now they get a price cut and are actually a competitive option now. Which is great. They had to compete with the new Russ series pumping out 40 punisher shots and 2d6 battlecannons.

 

 

A bit of a generalization there Idaho. We only play matched play and most of us have some sort of FW models or armies. True only a couple of us have FW superheavies(me included) but mostly its because standard GW SHs are so much more points efficient and effective than FW SHs.

 

This.

 

The standard GW LoWs are better, full stop. They should have gotten a massive points increase too. They didn't. FW ones did. Why? If it was to address feedback why did the Fire Raptor** get cheaper? Especially when Assault Cannon Razorbacks went up?

 

The Spartan** did escape the axe fortunately for my Templar friend. All it was is a beefier land raider anyway.

 

So all in all, resin marine LoWs minus the Spartan** are power level only but some of the FW marine non-LoWs got better. So Guard and Chaos will continue their reign of superheavies and Primarchs on the competitive scene. Marines can't combat that directly. Marine players will have to spread their points around and make it so that killing one unit is overkill and help reduce the efficiency of plastic LoWs.

 

With Sicarans** and Fire Raptors**(Surprisingly) getting cheaper it means we can spread points out so a better plastic LoW across the table can't blow out an expensive model of our own and make a chunk of it''s points back as easily. I expect the non Ultramarine meta to shift towards compartmentalizing and more MSU. Shadowswords OHKO anything they touch, and I bring them up because I see them constantly, so the more the points are spread out while maintaining efficiency the better. Plasma Inceptors getting cheaper, for example, can do some heavy lifting now. Venators making enemy LoWs have -1BS is going to be very beneficial.

 

**These three kits do have one thing in common:

They've been best sellers for years.

 

[Lemondish]

The only reason that makes sense is they want many of those units to only be used in Apocalypse (where they suggest using PL instead) so that every single army list isn't built around a LoW. So, up the points cost, keep the PL the same. GW LoWs therefore remain the options to use in matched play currently, and to highlight how cheap LoWs are an issue, just look at how the GW ones are literally everywhere.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Lemondish

[CaptainMarsh]

It sucks for those who used FW LoW. I never did and LoW are somewhat rare in my store's meta anyway, regardless of whether it is GW or FW with the exception of Knights.

I like the point changes, mostly, outside of the FW LoW. The Sicarans are now great options.