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Rumoured Chapter Approved changes and what they mean for SM


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#1
Frater Cornelius

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According to faeit there will only be point changes for existing factions. Here is what the rumoured changes are for SM:

Updated Point Values
Space Marines pts per model
Aggressor 21
Chaplain in Terminator Armour 100
Drop Pod 83
Inceptor 25
Intercessor 18
Librarian 88
Librarian in Terminator 120
Razorback 70
Stalker 75
Stormraven 192
Tartaros Terminator 26
Terminator Assault 26
Terminus Ultra 250
Vindicator 125
Whirlwind 70

Wargear
Assault bolter 10
Assault cannon 22
Assault plasma incinerator 17
Auto boltstorm gauntlets 12
Auxiliary grenade launcher 1
Boltstorm gauntlet 22
Centurion assault launchers 3
Force axe 10
Force stave 8
Hurricane bolter 10
Ironclad assault launchers 5
Plasma exterminator 17
Predator autocannon 40
Twin assault cannon 44

Roboute Guilliman 385
Sergeant Chronus 40

I was extremely unimpressed, until I took a closer look. Aggressors costing 37ppm, Inceptors costing 45ppm with Bolters and 59ppm with Plasma. This... could actually make them work. Unlikely, but boy it is a price drop.
No fix for SM vehicles, but many are cheaper. Given that Assault Cannons are now more expensive, as are Razorbacks, maybe the Predator will have time to shine. I still think Quadlas Pred is outperformed by 2 Lasbacks, but since the autocannon is cheaper, maybe the destructor will gain prominence as it is a fairly solid vehicle with little variance.

Minor point drops here and there, but nothing major. I do not think it will be a game changer, but definitely a start.

Please note that as of right now this is just a rumour. Thread carefully ;)

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#2
Damo1701

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Personally, if it's not a Codex or Web-based errata, it can swing.

Already have 3 books to lug about, sometimes 4 when gaming. Not wanting another one.

Just a cash-grab by GW during an already expensive period, with a view to making marines generally worse by bumping prices up on long-term favoured weapons, while dropping Primaris points, to sell more Primaris...
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#3
Frater Cornelius

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Alternatively, you could try and see it positively and realize that this may be GW trying to balance things.
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#4
Damo1701

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Alternatively, you could try and see it positively and realize that this may be GW trying to balance things.


Balance things? Making it harder for marines to get the weapons they need, while lowering the points for their replacements?

That's balancing things alright, still working on making marines less viable, while simultaneously not addressing the fact there are still massive holes in the Primaris range.
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#5
Frater Cornelius

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Chill out. This not a thread discussing your personal feelings about GW's policies. We have other threads for that. Actual rule changes in CA were highly unlikely to begin with. Besides, these are just rumours. Let's not dig this deeper. This is not what this thread is about ;)
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#6
Blindhamster

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All in all, it makes me feel reasonably happy for the potential for my codex.

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#7
Frater Cornelius

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I hope Baal Preds get a point drop to offset the potential increase in price of the twin assault cannon.

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#8
Ishagu

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Everything aside from Assault Cannons, Hurricane Bolters and Razorback has dropped.

I'm guessing the Terminus Ultra has gone up 50. I don't think that cost shown there includes the Weapons.

Edited by Ishagu, 08 November 2017 - 12:01 PM.

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#9
Frater Cornelius

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This is the one part that makes me question the validity of this leak. The Terminus Ultra is an Index unit. Why would they go back on those? Unless GW wants to support the Indecies as well, which I doubt.


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#10
Ishagu

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Apparently they'll be adjusting everything including Forgeworld entries.

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#11
Kallas

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Upping Assault Centurions (indirectly through Hurricane Bolters) and dropping Aggressors even lower...hmm.

I mean, I'm slightly biased because I think Gravis armour looks fugly as hell, but it's kinda ridiculous just how cheap Primaris stuff is getting, especially Aggressors. Would really rather see Aggressors being buffed in a couple of other areas, like maybe giving them a little bit more movement and a better save, rather than it being 2.5 Aggressors to every 1 Assault Centurion...

Also, super sad to see Hurricane Bolters increase by 150%. I mean, at the end of the day, it's 6 Bolters that have to fire at the same target, and a Storm Bolter (2 Bolters that have to fire at the same target) are only 2pts. *Shrug* Maybe it's not just to indirectly ping the Stormraven, but it feels that way, and that feels wrong.

#12
Pentharian

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Already have 3 books to lug about, sometimes 4 when gaming. Not wanting another one.


You only need to carry 1 book and a piece of paper. Codex and the short rules. At most, this will add a second book that's smaller than the first. Carrying more books than that is choice, not requirement.

On points balance - Everything getting cheaper sounds bogus. And yet, on the one hand, makes some sense. The only design philosophy that could support that is "We want to allow more models on the table", which while unlikely is entirely possible that they could be shooting for. Possible this could be how they're trying to buff Elite armies versus swarms, to let us take more. I'm skeptical.

On the leak itself - Given my skepticism on the changes presented, I want to reject the leak as legit. I don't exactly know how I'll feel if it's largely accurate... But, to be fair, the leak is only snippets, so it's entirely possible that it could be true and some other information in the Chapter Approved makes it click over to sense-making.

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#13
Frater Cornelius

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Well, the Razorbacks, Guilliman and Stormraven had a price hike. This is less about getting more models and more a shift in models givem the current lists. For example, I wouldn't be able to run my old lists anymore, but cheaper Gravis variants open new options, especially since the meta demands mobility.


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#14
Pentharian

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They did, but it's still largely a decrease across the board. Forgive my hyperbole.

I know that the increase in some weapons kinda washes a bit of it out. Some of it seems like necessary changes. Some of it... I can't quite follow. Yet.

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#15
Ishagu

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Currently you're generally not seeing primaris on the table.
You are seeing Razorbacks and Stormravens however, and when you do the math a Razorback basically nullifies a Rhino, a Drop Pod and a Predator as it's more efficient.

Stormravens are very damaging and negate terrain, could be why they are seeing an increase. Stormravens also make Landraider arguably redundant.


You have to realise that Marines are currently not up to par with Guard and Eldar. This is potentially addressing that.

Edited by Ishagu, 08 November 2017 - 01:14 PM.

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#16
Damo1701

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Rulebook. Codex. Forge World Index. Plus FAQ sheets, and army lists.

I'm not adding another book to that list, especially as it's a poorly hidden attempt to neuter Marines and promote Primaris.

Only time will tell though.
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#17
Ishagu

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I wouldn't say that a point re-adjustment for a transport tank that made the Predator, Rhino and Drop Pod redundant is a neutering of Marines.
Primaris did need a boost, though!

You won't need any FAQs following Chapter Approved, one would assume.

Edited by Ishagu, 08 November 2017 - 01:56 PM.

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#18
HCMistborn

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Eh, it doesn't matter if you carry the book or not, cause tournies(if you play them) will make you use the updated rules, and if I play someone, I would ask them to as well, if only because I will be getting an advantage over them if they don't with a Primaris force.

#19
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Points changes aside, do we know what else is in the upcoming book? Any rules that might help us?

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#20
Pentharian

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Currently you're generally not seeing primaris on the table.
You are seeing Razorbacks and Stormravens however, and when you do the math a Razorback basically nullifies a Rhino, a Drop Pod and a Predator as it's more efficient.

Stormravens are very damaging and negate terrain, could be why they are seeing an increase. Stormravens also make Landraider arguably redundant.


You have to realise that Marines are currently not up to par with Guard and Eldar. This is potentially addressing that.


Agreed, I wasn't meaning to suggest that Marines were perfect and needed no changes. Just that I'm not exactly on board with this method of fix if the leak is to be believed. It has some weight, because where the points increases are make sense. I'm not exactly against it either, though. It's something that I'll want to see play out before I form an opinion.

I also support more encouragement to bring the Primaris onto the table alongside the rest of the Space Marines. Would go a long way to quelling some of the belief that the Primaris is a "Range" separate from the rest of the Space Marines.
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#21
crazyterran

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It's Faeit. So, fake. 

 

Not to mention, if this is the extent of it, it would be...disappointing. Devastator Centurions, Chapter Tactics... 



#22
Ebon Hand

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Everything aside from Assault Cannons, Hurricane Bolters and Razorback has dropped.

I'm guessing the Terminus Ultra has gone up 50. I don't think that cost shown there includes the Weapons.


It's a 50 point decrease. I think the weapons are included with the Terminus since it doesn't say "wargear not included". 400 points plus another 200 for the lascannons would be utter insanity for a Land Raider with no Transport capacity, especially with its overload drawback.
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#23
CCE1981

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Any truth to the points fixes will likely be scene in Dark Angels and the Blood Angels Codices coming up.

I do have some hope, the Inceptor change places them at the point value they should be at.

Edited by CCE1981, 08 November 2017 - 05:33 PM.


#24
Ishagu

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Everything aside from Assault Cannons, Hurricane Bolters and Razorback has dropped.

I'm guessing the Terminus Ultra has gone up 50. I don't think that cost shown there includes the Weapons.

It's a 50 point decrease. I think the weapons are included with the Terminus since it doesn't say "wargear not included". 400 points plus another 200 for the lascannons would be utter insanity for a Land Raider with no Transport capacity, especially with its overload drawback.

According to the rumours in Chapter Approved it's 250. That must be with no weapons otherwise it's only 60 pointd more than a Predator.

Would be 450 with Weapons making it 50 more than currently.

Edited by Ishagu, 08 November 2017 - 06:22 PM.

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#25
Ebon Hand

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Everything aside from Assault Cannons, Hurricane Bolters and Razorback has dropped.

I'm guessing the Terminus Ultra has gone up 50. I don't think that cost shown there includes the Weapons.

It's a 50 point decrease. I think the weapons are included with the Terminus since it doesn't say "wargear not included". 400 points plus another 200 for the lascannons would be utter insanity for a Land Raider with no Transport capacity, especially with its overload drawback.
According to the rumours in Chapter Approved it's 250. That must be with no weapons otherwise it's only 60 pointd more than a Predator.

Would be 450 with Weapons making it 50 more than currently.
Ah my bad, I misread and thought the new cost was 350. Then it is a 50 point increase, with the wargear being separate and the current cost (400) being with wargear included. I would have rather they put it at 200 since it's a Lord of War and no transport capacity, but perhaps it's for the best since it does benefit from Guilliman rerolls... 50 points though. That's a blow to this Venerable relic.

Edited by Ebon Hand, 08 November 2017 - 06:32 PM.

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