Chapter Approved changes and what they mean for SM

[Ishagu]

Take it easy guys. Guilliman isn't winning tournaments, and the armies he's in suffer from lack of mobility and low numbers.

 

There are far more powerful things in the game. Complaining about Guilliman to this extent indicates a lack of experience in all truth.

 

Also, will he be as attractive a choice if other units and tactics become more competitive? Let's wait and see.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Ishagu

[crazyterran]

I expect Raven Guard Primaris will get a boost, if these are the extent of the Marine Changes. If Chapter Tactics isnt given to vehicles, they might be the top, though will it be enough to unseat current Guilliman lists (sans one razorback)?

 

If FW dreads get cheaper, they might be good in an Ultramarines list.

[Frater Cornelius]

Most of the time SL and RG CT are superior to UM. What makes UM so solid are the special characters they have access to. Without those, I'd argue that even IF are superior.

[Ishagu]

I've played against Armies in which Guilliman could do nothing.

 

-Tau Commander Spam held in reserve coming down and destroying every hard hitting unit turn 1

-Tzeentch Daemom Smite Spam. Dozens of Blobs of super cheap units, all with 4++, all casting Smite. The changeling for 70 points is superior to any Imperium psyker

-Aitoloc (sp?) Eldar. Re-rolling hits means very, very little when you're shooting with a -2 or even -3 modifier.

 

The Guilliman hate needs to really cool off. If he's dominating your local meta ask players to use him less in casual games or change up your list to deal with him. All this rage filled complaining needs to cease.

[SydonianDragoon404]

Ishagu you are literally the only person I have ever seen say that Guilliman is not OP. Given your avatar, and your profile stating that you play Ultramarines, you aren't exactly the most unbiased party to make a judgement on that either. 

 

If something is so widely panned as Guilliman is, that means there's a problem. You can't just say "people hate him because they have to learn 2 play! Noobs!" Something that isn't necessarily OP don't get the attention that Guilliman does from everyone that isn't an Ultrasmurf player. 

 

Sure you mentioned that he has very specific counters. That doesn't mean he's appropriately costed.

Edited November 23, 2017 by SydonianDragoon404

[Ishagu]

It's the perfect storm, my friend. He's an Ultramarine.

 

Same reasoning that makes people vocally hate EA as a company whilst they have no problem buying trainers made by companies who use child labour! lol

 

People think he's overpowered. I think he's very strong in casual games.

At the highest level of play he really isn't, and that's the measure of power. That's a fact backed up by dozens of high level tournaments. He isn't winning, he isn't dominating. Heck, the top Ultramarines list only finished 18th at the SoCal open.

 

Facts are worth more than opinions. Your local metas are irrelevant in the face of global data.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Ishagu

[Frater Cornelius]

Let's not bring EA into this. That's another issue entirely ;)

 

As for Guilliman, I sort of need to defend Ishagu here. He is strong, basically the strength of an entire faction in one model. This makes up for the weak power Marines have. When you compare Marines with Eldar, you will see that the power of Eldar is more or less evenly distributed amongst their units, Stratagems and army rules. Meanwhile, the same sum of strength as Eldar have is barely present in most UM units or Stratagems and are instead within Guilliman. Yes, this makes him more powerful than most units in the game, but when regarded in an army-wide context, he is part of a Marine army and thus allows them to compete.

 

So before people rush to nerf Guilliman, I ask that you also take army strength as a whole into consideration. Buff the rest to compensate for a Guilliman nerf and everything will be fine. Nerf Guilliman without context and you kill an army.

[Schlitzaf]

I think Gulliman aside, the issue with the Vanilla Marine Book is....it’s the Vanilla Marine. Basic Marines no frills. It’s the army that is treated as the gold standard that everything is derived from. A strong Vanilla Marines results in weaker armies falling further behind.

 

My case for that is Power Disparity in 7th. Marines were top teir and the power became concentrated in the literal best of best. Not to say this isn’t happening anyways but it’s exaggerated when Marines are tiered. In 5th Marines were respectably mid-teir held by Vulcan (like Gulliman does today).

 

Guard were also one of the the best with Leafblower and the edition I see many hold as the most balanced edition. I’ll see if can better collect my thoughts better later. But Vanilla Marines being mid-teir is good. It means the minimum power you need is 5 not 10.

[Ishagu]

I'll tell you what's wrong with Marines.

 

A 112 point Centurion has less chance of surviving a Las Cannon hit than a 3 point Brimstone Horror.

 

CA has a lot to fix lol

[Schlitzaf]

Does anyone with CA news know if Neophytes are getting changed? I keep hearing folks apparently have or seen it already

[TrexPushups]

I'll tell you what's wrong with Marines.

 

A 112 point Centurion has less chance of surviving a Las Cannon hit than a 3 point Brimstone Horror.

 

CA has a lot to fix lol

But the centurion has a much better chance of surviving it despite the lascannon being one of the best weapons for killing centurions.

 

Lascannon wounds the horror on a 2+ and the centurion on a 3+

 

The horror has a 4++ vs the centurion’s modified 5+

 

So far it is a wash now we get to damage.

 

The centurion has a 33% chance of surviving after failing their save the horror is just plain dead.

 

If you put the centurion in cover he gets the same 4+ save while the horror doesn’t improve.

 

Now compare what a hurricane Bolter does to the same two units.

Edited November 23, 2017 by TrexPushups

[Frater Cornelius]

Even if it is easier to kill a Brimstone, not much easier compared to Cents. Marines suffer from modifiers, multi damage and unreliable weapons with D3 or D6 somewhere thrown in there.

[TrexPushups]

Sure they could use a price decrease but brimstones are not the proper comparison

 

The real issue is they cost the same as a Razorback but are much more fragile.

[chapter master 454]

A big issue and it is present also in other armies (from my experience and reading, tau suffer it hard) is the points given to the model alone. Literally some models are priced for things they don't have yet from the looks of it and there is proof in the fact that Assault Centurions and Devastator Centurions are wildly out of control with points difference.

Assault Centurions cost 53 points + 2x whatever you strap to the arms and your choice of chest mount. The most expensive one you can field is twin-melta and hurricanes which totals out at 90 points if my math is right. AND they don't have to buy their siege drills (which we could possibly account into their base cost due to no other unit having them).

Devastator Centurions however cost 80 points BASE with no weapons. None. Then they have to pay for chest mount and their arm weapons THROUGH THEIR NOSE. the cheapest is the twin-heavy bolters and the most expensive being twin-lascannons (ranging from 17-50 points).

 

Various other units are also overpriced along with various weapon choices. While I have warmed up to lascannons these days (now actually really good anti-big stuff) they are still horrifically priced and to cap that Multi-meltas and Gravcannons are also overpriced (and I will call them gravcannons unless CA gives Grav-amps rules like +1 to wound vs. units with a 3+ save or re-rolls to wound).

 

Various weapons and guns are heavily taxed almost as if a kneejerk to the death balls of 7th where centurion devastators with grav dominated every unit that dared to appear. Hopefully CA addresses this issue. My only ask, if nothing else is done is to at least give grav-amps an effect instead of being a vestigial piece of text that has as much use as a pacifist commissar!

[Ishagu]

Codex has about 5/6 usable units in competitive play, yes.

I'd actually knock 50 full points off each Centurion, make twin Las 40, grav cannon 23 etc

[Closet Skeleton]

They screwed grav amps over when they gave them to devastators. Non amped grav cannons do not exist so why should grav amps do anything. Grav-guns just need to be priced like the slightly different plasma guns they are and grav cannons need to be priced like the super heavy bolters they are rather than the super missile launchers the rules team thought they were. Plasma cannons also need to be priced like the offbrand plasma guns they are not the 1.5x plasma gun the point cost suggests.

 

Which is all really down to range being overcosted in a -1 and no scatter deepstrikes to hit environment.

 

50 point grav centurions would give Guiliman something to run with in a post assault cannon balance world.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Closet Skeleton

[RandomMarine]

Just give me a IH character for crying out loud.

 

I play ironhands and without using fw units I have trouble with top tier lists. I could fix this with a single sentence that gave chapter tactics to IH vehicles.

Edited November 23, 2017 by RandomMarine

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I'll tell you what's wrong with Marines.

 

A 112 point Centurion has less chance of surviving a Las Cannon hit than a 3 point Brimstone Horror.

 

CA has a lot to fix lol

rofl... that is funny!  

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

The issue with Girlyman is how he interacts with all other units yet is only available to UM.  That means that if GW wants to buff marines overall then UM will automatically benefit the most since Girlyman's reroll aura is such a huge force multiplier.  In addition, just having him gives you extra command points.  Other chapters have to pay command points to get the chapter master reroll aura whereas UM get additional command points for a superior version.  Overall he just makes the Marines codex difficult to balance and tweak in addition to pigeonholing UMs because of how insanely good he is.    

[Nalim]

The issue with Girlyman is how he interacts with all other units yet is only available to UM.  That means that if GW wants to buff marines overall then UM will automatically benefit the most since Girlyman's reroll aura is such a huge force multiplier.  In addition, just having him gives you extra command points.  Other chapters have to pay command points to get the chapter master reroll aura whereas UM get additional command points for a superior version.  Overall he just makes the Marines codex difficult to balance and tweak in addition to pigeonholing UMs because of how insanely good he is.    

 

Guilliman has his weaknesses, though. Mainly that you have to invest in him and in another HQ choice you probably wouldn't need. This works very well right now because you can just use underpriced razorbacks and Celestine (since razorbacks don't profit from CT anyway). With point increases on him, Celestine and the razorbacks a current-style Guilliman list is most likely not durable enough anymore.

 

I've tried some list building with the rumoured new points values and I think I (as a Primaris player) might be better off without Guilliman and switching to Raven Guard. Everything I can come up with that includes Guilliman just doesn't bring enough wounds to the table.

 

This might, however, change quickly once Primaris Marines get a decent transport option. Fly, T6, 10W, 5++, 6 capacity with a Heavy Onslaught Gatling cannon on top. A man can dream.

[Kallas]

Just give me a IH character for crying out loud.

 

I play ironhands and without using fw units I have trouble with top tier lists. I could fix this with a single sentence that gave chapter tactics to IH vehicles.

I would love to see the Chapter Tactics apply to vehicles as it's stupid that everyone else gets traits universally applied, but Marines don't. If necessary, don't apply to Flyer Battlefield Role and T8+ vehicles if that were absolutely necessary.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

That is a rather not confusing, yeah. I wonder if the design paradigm was changed after the first wave Marine books went to the publisher. It doesn't make much sense that Wave Serpents can benefit from the Raven Guard trait but Rhinos can't.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

The issue with Girlyman is how he interacts with all other units yet is only available to UM.  That means that if GW wants to buff marines overall then UM will automatically benefit the most since Girlyman's reroll aura is such a huge force multiplier.  In addition, just having him gives you extra command points.  Other chapters have to pay command points to get the chapter master reroll aura whereas UM get additional command points for a superior version.  Overall he just makes the Marines codex difficult to balance and tweak in addition to pigeonholing UMs because of how insanely good he is.    

 

Guilliman has his weaknesses, though. Mainly that you have to invest in him and in another HQ choice you probably wouldn't need. This works very well right now because you can just use underpriced razorbacks and Celestine (since razorbacks don't profit from CT anyway). With point increases on him, Celestine and the razorbacks a current-style Guilliman list is most likely not durable enough anymore.

 

I've tried some list building with the rumoured new points values and I think I (as a Primaris player) might be better off without Guilliman and switching to Raven Guard. Everything I can come up with that includes Guilliman just doesn't bring enough wounds to the table.

 

This might, however, change quickly once Primaris Marines get a decent transport option. Fly, T6, 10W, 5++, 6 capacity with a Heavy Onslaught Gatling cannon on top. A man can dream.

 

 

I was actually talking about Guilliman in the context of FLGS pickup games not rock hard tourney lists... should have been clear about that.  In the world of beardy tournament 40k im sure Guilliman is pretty balanced at his current points or even higher.  As far as im aware the only lists you see doing well at tournaments that are drawn entirely from a single codex are Imperial Guard and Eldar.  All the stuff I've seen other than those two armies is just one or another variation of smite spam soup lists with super cheap bodies and a badass character or a super heavy/heavies, or flyers.  I don't really pay too close attention to tournament play so if someone wants to chew me out and refute everything I just said.. go for it! 

 

In pickup play Guilliman is pretty lame to face since he super charges pretty balanced or fair lists to a degree that no other character can match.    

That is a rather not confusing, yeah. I wonder if the design paradigm was changed after the first wave Marine books went to the publisher. It doesn't make much sense that Wave Serpents can benefit from the Raven Guard trait but Rhinos can't.

Haha yeah that is absurd given how much better a Wave Serpent is than a Rhino.  

[ERJAK]

I've played against Armies in which Guilliman could do nothing.

 

-Tau Commander Spam held in reserve coming down and destroying every hard hitting unit turn 1

-Tzeentch Daemom Smite Spam. Dozens of Blobs of super cheap units, all with 4++, all casting Smite. The changeling for 70 points is superior to any Imperium psyker

-Aitoloc (sp?) Eldar. Re-rolling hits means very, very little when you're shooting with a -2 or even -3 modifier.

 

The Guilliman hate needs to really cool off. If he's dominating your local meta ask players to use him less in casual games or change up your list to deal with him. All this rage filled complaining needs to cease.

You're still hitting better than guard at -2.

 

And for the guy above me, SoB and Harlequins have quietly been finishing pretty consistently in the top 32 at large events.

Edited November 25, 2017 by ERJAK

[Frater Cornelius]

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bb5U_nflpU2/

 

Looks like the leaks were true. Well, Primaris just got a reason to exist. Well, except the Redemptor. That one is still too expensive. Looks like some lists need a restructuring. Guilliman is not to be seen here, but assuming the leak was correct, given the point here, we have his point costs in the original post.

 

Thoughts?