Chapter Approved - Deathwatch Changes

[Prot]

way to kill the last of my optimism.

 

Sorry, that was pretty stupid of me. I apologize. I should have waited a day or two before really reflecting on the changes. My fault here is that I had been telling myself, as well as other people on the forum and friends around me that CA would fix just a lot of the goofiness in the index list. So I made that assumption and actually believed it. 

[bluntpencil]

I'd at least like to have seen the Heavy Thunder Hammer dropped by 10 points, or the potential to do Mortal Wounds.

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

We just were just hoping for a stealth codex, and got the Tau and Necron treatment. A little disappointed, but not unexpected. Excited for the next few months!

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

way to kill the last of my optimism.

 

Sorry, that was pretty stupid of me. I apologize. I should have waited a day or two before really reflecting on the changes. My fault here is that I had been telling myself, as well as other people on the forum and friends around me that CA would fix just a lot of the goofiness in the index list. So I made that assumption and actually believed it. 

 

 

 

I was being a bit overly dramatic. I'm pretty lucky to have a playgroup that have enough models where it isn't too difficult to get them to run the "Fun Stuff".  Just wanted to be able to show up to tournament with them and not be embarrassed cause they shouldn't be this bad.

 

We just were just hoping for a stealth codex, and got the Tau and Necron treatment. A little disappointed, but not unexpected. Excited for the next few months!

 

Yeah me too. So far I think the transition from index to codex has gone well for most armies, and the chapter approved does nerf some pretty unfun stuff so I just have to believe in the process.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Black_Star

[Irbis]

 

Yeah me too. So far I think the transition from index to codex has gone well for most armies, and the chapter approved does nerf some pretty unfun stuff so I just have to believe in the process.

 

The problem with CA is, people had high expectations of it but now that I read points changes and could reflect on them, it honestly looks like vast majority of point changes were knee jerk misses. SM baneblade-based tanks that were already worse than IG ones got massive price hikes (while IG didn't). Conscripts and malefic lords were for all intents and purposes not balanced, but deleted from books. IG stationary artillery now costs more than the same gun in kited out tank. Several ork vehicles were nerfed. Etc, etc, most of the nerfs hit already overpriced and weak units. Compared to that, DW negligence and lack of care was one of the least bad parts of CA... Which is sad if you think about it.

 

DW at this point needs a deep rethink, like orks or GK/TS, like expansion DG got, as all four armies are trying to carve out niches that simply don't work as intended and require new direction.

[spacewatch]

It's so sad to read about these rumours and analysis. Since I started playing wh40k 14 months ago I have invested an army worth of 4000 pts. That's fair amount of money and what do I get, very interesting and nice looking elite army that's 'eliteness' is more and more broken after every 'update'. What about the future? If rumours that I have read from different forums are correct my most recent army list (DW vs Orcs) will be 20+ pts more expensive where my opponents Orc army will be 150+ pts less expensive. Really cannot understand this kind of 'balancing'. The sadest thing is that primaris units will make DW units obsolete. As an example take a look Inceptors vs. VVets, with just basic assault bolters they outshine full plasma VVet unit and with assault plasma incinerators and jump pack captain they will be 'our' most effective unit. Primaris is clearly the way we are directed to but I cannot afford to invest in another army. On the other hand I don't want to play an army that can win only with exeptionally good luck. So this looks like an end for this hobby now 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

@Spacewatch - If you only have one army you should talk to your friends about house rules that can help you. Example rule changes could be a 2-3 point drop on vets and maybe dropping some of the other units down to 2-5 points above their marine counterparts, or letting you use another armies chapter tactic (raven guard for example) and stratagems. 

 

@Ibris - yeah a bunch of armies I think just have place holder abilities until their codex gets an update I'd add Tau to that list as well. I'm convinced that they don't know how to fit primaris in with deathwatch with the existing SIA rules and that leads to deathwatch largely being untouched.   

 

Grey knights were a miss, the more I look at these changes the more I think this CA was wrapped up before most of the codex that have been modified in it were released. So I don't think they ignored them so much didn't know what to change. There are a lot of drawbacks to release schedule this fast, and I think this is a prime example. 

[Moostick]

Ugh, I was about to start on my Land Raider today, but realized LRC have gone up 21 points, and LRR are up 9 points. I don't feel these needed a nerf at all since their use was already rare.

 

LR - 356 -> 356

LRC - 287 -> 308

LRR - 339 -> 348

 

LR seems like the best choice, but I need at least 11 capacity. LRC used to be much cheaper, so that balanced their crappy guns. LRR was always kind of eh, but I'm leaning more towards it now since it's only 40 points more than LRC.

[spacewatch]

@Black_Star - Yes, for fun games I'll easily get 2-3 pts Vet reduction locally, but actually even that doesn't help anymore. My local meta is Orcs and IG and if rumours are right Orcs will get very powerful strategem which allows them combine two units. This makes their melee mega killers Meganobz practically untouchable because they now can have as many meat shields as they need and they easily get stratagems to keep that combination all the time. I cannot figure out how to beat Orcs with the DW in the future. So in order to keep interest up while waiting our codex...
 
...I allready checked Raven Guard that you suggested. After quick look these rare shadow warriors look interesting and their chapter tactics might work in my local meta too. Some of my Vets are allready from Raven Guard so with my own painting scheme it's not difficult to convert these and some other DW Vets to successor Black Guard marines. Not going to abandon my Vets (yet) but to study (including proper mathhammering) what reduced point cost and chapter tactics actually mean in practice. This way I'll also get something what I can compare our codex to, when it comes. And if codex doesn't compare at all then... I need to decide if DW is still needed in my sector.

[Matt_149]

I was also very hopeful for CA but sadly it hasn't helped hugely. Storm shields are 10 points cheaper so Breacher Squads are back. I'm just a bit sad that I made a well painted army of "individuals" and they just get rofl stomped by even the most average army as I simply don't have enough bodies on a 3+ save :(. Still I am sure that when we get the codex in the spring it will all be better. (Can't be any worse!). 

 

Before somebody says I am just being a negative nancy here are some ideas that I have thought of; I feel we need improvements on SIA to characters/in general, a slight reduction in costs to basic bodies (even 1 point helps) and strategems that are fluffy and appropriate to our role.

[shanewatts]

I know there is a lot of doom and gloom going around right now. Once I have the full book in my hands and can see all the changes I will be posting to GW side by side comparisons on Vets vs Primaris etc. Hopefully this will help bring light to the needed change for DW.

 

On a brighter note, I am and will continue to play my DW in competitive tournaments. Any further insight or army comp ideas I will share.

 

Good luck out there and keep your head up.

[Moostick]

Guards crying about nerfs from Chapter Approved made me take a look at their codex and I noticed something that sunk my heart.

 

They have the Inferno Cannon, which is 2D6, S6, AP1, 1D, 16" range flamer. That's literally one of our best weapons, the FC, but better with twice the range.

 

It's on a Hellhound for only 93 points total (with either a HB at 101 or a HF at 110). It has the statline of a Predator (T7, W11, 3+). For just twice the cost, they get +3T, +10W, +6" movement, +8" range.

 

Edit: Wait, one FC Vet is 49 points...sigh...

Edited November 27, 2017 by Moostick

[mjrwaud]

Guards crying about nerfs from Chapter Approved made me take a look at their codex and I noticed something that sunk my heart.

 

They have the Inferno Cannon, which is 2D6, S6, AP1, 1D, 16" range flamer. That's literally one of our best weapons, the FC, but better with twice the range.

 

It's on a Hellhound for only 93 points total (with either a HB at 101 or a HF at 110). It has the statline of a Predator (T7, W11, 3+). For just twice the cost, they get +3T, +10W, +6" movement, +8" range.

 

Edit: Wait, one FC Vet is 49 points...sigh...

 

Ouch.

Although it could be brushed off by some as "apples vs. oranges" those numbers are just depressing. That comparison is the kind of thing we should FB post / e-mail to GW along with a polite "golly gee"?

[Vel'Cona]

Do we have all the reveals for CA yet?

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

I can't imagine there's anything left.

[shanewatts]

I am confident that everything has not been leaked yet.

[spacewatch]

Hope so. Tried ...but couldn't just turn and leave my Vets now in these desperate times. So pre-ordered CA and now hoping that this nerve-consuming waiting doesn't make me mad  

[Irbis]

Guards crying about nerfs from Chapter Approved made me take a look at their codex and I noticed something that sunk my heart.

 

They have the Inferno Cannon, which is 2D6, S6, AP1, 1D, 16" range flamer. That's literally one of our best weapons, the FC, but better with twice the range.

 

It's on a Hellhound for only 93 points total (with either a HB at 101 or a HF at 110). It has the statline of a Predator (T7, W11, 3+). For just twice the cost, they get +3T, +10W, +6" movement, +8" range.

 

To be fair - doesn't that apply to all marine/vehicles comparison? Say, a devastator squads with 4 lascannons has cost comparable to quad las predator, despite having lower T (but they can get cover, don't degrade until the last 4 guys, and score more easily). Also, IC is comparable to FC, but BA variant, you're forgetting the DW pocket lascannon mode...

[Thanatos31]

Do we have all the reveals for CA yet?

yes. its literally the WL trait, 2 Stratagems , 1 Relic and the point adjustments. 

[Moostick]

To be fair - doesn't that apply to all marine/vehicles comparison? Say, a devastator squads with 4 lascannons has cost comparable to quad las predator, despite having lower T (but they can get cover, don't degrade until the last 4 guys, and score more easily). Also, IC is comparable to FC, but BA variant, you're forgetting the DW pocket lascannon mode...

Point taken; it's more of a I thought it was special to us and BA...but there's an even better form of it elsewhere. Our vehicle version is the Infernus pred at 135 without sponsons and -1S, +1D, -8" range flamer. I still pretend the pseudo LC doesn't exist since I almost never use it.

 

After the disappointment of CA, everything seems a little bleak. Anyways, this will be the end of my complaints on the topic of CA. I put my entire army on hold and might build some Death Company during the wait if they get a point reduction.

[Thanatos31]

 

To be fair - doesn't that apply to all marine/vehicles comparison? Say, a devastator squads with 4 lascannons has cost comparable to quad las predator, despite having lower T (but they can get cover, don't degrade until the last 4 guys, and score more easily). Also, IC is comparable to FC, but BA variant, you're forgetting the DW pocket lascannon mode...

Point taken; it's more of a I thought it was special to us and BA...but there's an even better form of it elsewhere. Our vehicle version is the Infernus pred at 135 without sponsons and -1S, +1D, -8" range flamer. I still pretend the pseudo LC doesn't exist since I almost never use it.

 

After the disappointment of CA, everything seems a little bleak. Anyways, this will be the end of my complaints on the topic of CA. I put my entire army on hold and might build some Death Company during the wait if they get a point reduction.

 

Currently playing more GreyKnights in competitive settings, and only roll out the black in friendly matches

[LunarSol]

It's certainly a disappointment, but I'm going to daydream about the positives for a bit.

 

The Storm Shield fix finally trickling down is a fairly big deal.  Those things are a big deal for Vet squads and their prior price made them impossible to really cover your Troops properly.  Now you can arguably put in 2, which is a little bit of a band aid to the general problem Vets have with survivability.  Slightly toning down things like Smite spam helps us too overall in a really backhanded sort of way.

 

The nerfs sting but at least they were to crutches that we weren't even really the optimal use of anyway.  TAC Razorbacks helped prop up some issues with the army, but anyone could arguably do it at least as well with options to do it better.  At least now its easier to see what in the army can be buffed to give it a unique edge.  The only major issue is the Blackstar got caught in the crossfire and could really use a little love now; ideally something upping its accuracy or improving the bombard.

 

I'm not expecting GW to ever fix the army.  I'm not exactly sure why they decided to launch it and immediately abandon it, but here we are.  They still seem to be marketing it though, so... maybe? but I'm not going to hold my breath.

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

Storm Shields don't help at all against smite, unfortunately.

[LunarSol]

Storm Shields don't help at all against smite, unfortunately.

 

Not saying they do; that's two separate thoughts.

 

- Storm Shields are important for protecting our expensive kill teams and are not actually affordable enough to do so.

- The redunction in Smite spam due to nerfs targeting other factions also improves our survivability.

[Moostick]

To put to rest any anticipation left, someone with an early copy of the CA has confirmed there are no additional faction changes outside of what has been leaked. This includes:

 

- Points changes

- The 1-3 warlord traits/strategems/relics already leaked previously for non-codex factions

 

No rules/stats changes to units, and no "faction" abilities (i.e., chapter tactics) for armies without any currently.