Chapter Approved - Deathwatch Changes

[Muckwarrior]

 

.... My local meta is Orcs and IG and if rumours are right Orcs will get very powerful strategem which allows them combine two units. This makes their melee mega killers Meganobz practically untouchable because they now can have as many meat shields as they need and they easily get stratagems to keep that combination all the time. I cannot figure out how to beat Orcs with the DW in the future. ...

 

Just downloaded CA and found out that this Boyz meat shielding Meganobz combination that I was afraid is not possible. On the other hand Orcs got very generous point reduction but ...there's some hope left to beat them in the future too. Melee surely is not an option (even with cheaper Storm Shields) but our Relic opens new tactical options we need to think innovatively. For example after shooting Meganobz transport just drop jump pack Captain with relic near, beam some nasty shooting unit including Termie (maybe Apothecary too) up, then unleash hell against Meganobz (or whatever one needs to wipe off-table) and next turn back to base with teleport homer.

 

This sounds like the perfect scenario for Frag Cannons. They are the ultimate equalizer.

[HorrOwl]

So, are there Jumppack Librarians in DW now?:)

[Moostick]

So, are there Jumppack Librarians in DW now?:)

Think the conclusion was that they copy and pasted Librarian in Terminator Armour wrong since it's missing on our list.

[HorrOwl]

And another question if you don't mind :)

 

If I deep strike a Character with a beacon Angelis - can I use it in this phase to beam up a unit close to him?

[Moostick]

And another question if you don't mind

 

If I deep strike a Character with a beacon Angelis - can I use it in this phase to beam up a unit close to him?

 

Both happen at the end of the movement phase and it doesn't say the relic needed to be on the field at the beginning of the turn. You should be fine, but they could FAQ this like they did in 7th. It's not nearly as powerful in 8th though, so probably won't FAQ it out.

[Xisor]

In my gut, I think the fix that's needed for Deathwatch is simple: it *has* to be an eclectic mix.

 

So it has to reward mixing and peculiar combinations.

 

That, to me, means that I think their focus should be massively on kitbashing. On unusual combinations.

 

If it's squads of four bolter guys and a meltagun - that's just normal Marines.

 

In that sense, what they should be doing is a template for the basic profile, e.g.:

Bike

Power Armoured

Gravis

Terminator

Scout

Jump Pack

Inceptor

Dreadnoughts

Tanks

Flyers

 

Say that, excepting the last three, Kill Teams should be composed of 5+ in any combination. Depending on which Org slot you want that killteam to occupy, you get a minor special rule too. (Like Objective Secured for troops.)

 

Then everything else is an addition, e.g.:

Librarian: gain Smite & 1 Power

Captain: gain aura

Techmarine: gain tech power/control robots/control Servitors

Apothecary: heals

Chaplain: different aura

Ancient: Standard Bearers

Keeper: bodyguards

 

And then weapons about as freely available as possible. So anything that can be acquired can pretty much be given to anyone.

 

Let the cards fall where they will.

 

It does mean that tournaments might fall into specific patterns - but the easy alternative is forcing a set of specific patterns. So let it fall where it likes, tweaking values forces a change of pattern.

 

----

 

In terms of organising the Codex: you just get three sets of datasheet:

1- unit profile

2- weapons charts

3- aura lists

 

There already exists the complex "equip a weapon not on the datasheet" exceptions, so just go feet first and do it properly.

 

Add in some little quirks based on profile and you're close to sorted.

[Deepstrike_Nick]

In my gut, I think the fix that's needed for Deathwatch is simple: it *has* to be an eclectic mix.

 

So it has to reward mixing and peculiar combinations.

 

That, to me, means that I think their focus should be massively on kitbashing. On unusual combinations.

 

If it's squads of four bolter guys and a meltagun - that's just normal Marines.

 

In that sense, what they should be doing is a template for the basic profile, e.g.:

Bike

Power Armoured

Gravis

Terminator

Scout

Jump Pack

Inceptor

Dreadnoughts

Tanks

Flyers

 

Say that, excepting the last three, Kill Teams should be composed of 5+ in any combination. Depending on which Org slot you want that killteam to occupy, you get a minor special rule too. (Like Objective Secured for troops.)

 

Then everything else is an addition, e.g.:

Librarian: gain Smite & 1 Power

Captain: gain aura

Techmarine: gain tech power/control robots/control Servitors

Apothecary: heals

Chaplain: different aura

Ancient: Standard Bearers

Keeper: bodyguards

 

And then weapons about as freely available as possible. So anything that can be acquired can pretty much be given to anyone.

 

Let the cards fall where they will.

 

It does mean that tournaments might fall into specific patterns - but the easy alternative is forcing a set of specific patterns. So let it fall where it likes, tweaking values forces a change of pattern.

 

----

 

In terms of organising the Codex: you just get three sets of datasheet:

1- unit profile

2- weapons charts

3- aura lists

 

There already exists the complex "equip a weapon not on the datasheet" exceptions, so just go feet first and do it properly.

 

Add in some little quirks based on profile and you're close to sorted.

This seems like an excellent idea! Flavourful and great opportunities for modelling and converting.

Any way to get this to GW? :-p

[LunarSol]

However, problem with Strategems is that we don't have too many Command Points to use them, especially if you're used to re-roll damage rolls. So Strategems, used just once or twice during the game, probably won't give us the boost we need as an army imo.

 

I would hope/assume that our strategems would largely be about the rerolls we originally had in 7th edition in general so hopefully they'll just be more efficient versions of the existing abilities.

 

 

I'm not entirely sure the cost issue is in the Vets themselves.  I think it would certainly help to pull out 2-3 points of SIA so that we're not paying for it when we take a shotgun for example.  That said, the unique weapons are pretty pricey.  The Stalker, Shotgun, Inferus, Frag Cannon, and HtH are all pretty pricey and might be better roads to making the army more efficient.

 

Ultimately for me though, it all comes down to making VV/Term/Bikers efficient additions to a Kill Team.  Of course, that's a particularly challenging task when those models aren't really efficient anywhere else either.

[bluntpencil]

I've been thinking, making Deathwatch match up to the others...

 

Stratagems- Basically get all the Space Marine ones that aren't unit dependent, plus the Teleportarium one from Grey Knights. Lose the one that gives extra attacks vs. Chaos. Include some ammo-related stratagems.

 

 

Units - Gain the heroes, such as Ancients, Apothecaries, Techmarines, and Champions others get.

 

 

Also, a 'Primaris Kill-Team' unit. Starts with 5 Intercessors. May take Inceptors, Aggressors, and Reivers. 

 

Inceptors grant the whole squad Crushing Charge. Aggressors grant the whole squad Relentless Advance. Reivers grant the whole squad Terror Troops. This is basically a Primaris variant on the basic Kill-Team. Include option for Black Shield. Possibly allow SIA - they'll be using auto bolt rifles, most likely, to take advantage of Relentless Advance.

 

Possibly include the option for one-man 'Kill Marine' squads, like in the RPG. Basically an Assassin-lite, which retains the Deathwatch faction.

 

Equipment - Make the massive hammer worth taking. 2d6 damage pick best. Or, simply, does 3 damage, like a Thunder Hammer, but on 6 to wound, the wounds are Mortal. Options for master-crafted weapons (Artemis should probably have a master-crafted power sword, for example, maybe a Warlord trait like Blood Angels get). OR... Same Damage as a Thunder Hammer, but x3 Strength. Not much better against regular dudes, but smashing big things.

 

Warlord Traits - Basically the Space Marine ones, with the Deathwatch one replacing the Chapter ones.

Edited December 8, 2017 by bluntpencil

[Prot]

Well I had a game yesterday post CA with my Deathwatch. It was a lower point game... against Chaos.

 

I definitely lost, not only in points but I just couldn't handle the assaults. I got lucky with the Watchmaster and probably dragged it out longer than I should.

 

I almost lost the Corvus in T1 again... amazing even at a 1000 point game I can barely keep this thing in the air.

 

Anyway, the point I was actually trying to make is that strangely enough...Since I didn't get the beacon rolling, I have to admit it never felt like there was any change to my army.... Oh wait, that's not true. I did have a 5 point shield in my bigger Vet squad. (which unceremoniously took a lascannon to the chest.)

[Aothaine]

Well I had a game yesterday post CA with my Deathwatch. It was a lower point game... against Chaos.

 

I definitely lost, not only in points but I just couldn't handle the assaults. I got lucky with the Watchmaster and probably dragged it out longer than I should.

 

I almost lost the Corvus in T1 again... amazing even at a 1000 point game I can barely keep this thing in the air.

 

Anyway, the point I was actually trying to make is that strangely enough...Since I didn't get the beacon rolling, I have to admit it never felt like there was any change to my army.... Oh wait, that's not true. I did have a 5 point shield in my bigger Vet squad. (which unceremoniously took a lascannon to the chest.)

 

Sad days. Sorry to hear it was a rough go. I still think Primaris help out the Deathwatch lists a lot. It allows you to design vet squads to purpose. I also think that flyers, while good, need to be taken in multiples... three if you want them to do anything significant. There is so much anti-tank going around these days that anything you decide to field that they will target you will want to make sure you are saturating your opponent with targets. I like Lewis "The Spider"'s approach to it. He uses the rule of three. Always have three of each unit.

[Prot]

 

Well I had a game yesterday post CA with my Deathwatch. It was a lower point game... against Chaos.

 

I definitely lost, not only in points but I just couldn't handle the assaults. I got lucky with the Watchmaster and probably dragged it out longer than I should.

 

I almost lost the Corvus in T1 again... amazing even at a 1000 point game I can barely keep this thing in the air.

 

Anyway, the point I was actually trying to make is that strangely enough...Since I didn't get the beacon rolling, I have to admit it never felt like there was any change to my army.... Oh wait, that's not true. I did have a 5 point shield in my bigger Vet squad. (which unceremoniously took a lascannon to the chest.)

 

Sad days. Sorry to hear it was a rough go. I still think Primaris help out the Deathwatch lists a lot. It allows you to design vet squads to purpose. I also think that flyers, while good, need to be taken in multiples... three if you want them to do anything significant. There is so much anti-tank going around these days that anything you decide to field that they will target you will want to make sure you are saturating your opponent with targets. I like Lewis "The Spider"'s approach to it. He uses the rule of three. Always have three of each unit.

 

 

Oh I completely agree with you. Just my thing is after buidling such a massive Ultramarine's Primaris army, I really feel they do that whole primaris thing a little better so there's no real incentive for me to re-do all of that for Deathwatch. :)

[Moostick]

Anyone else feel like SIA doesn't put out as much mileage as before, despite doing the exact same thing as it did in 7th?

 

I don't know it's the change to AP and D, the emergence of horde as a powerhouse, or whether it's just my imagination, but SIA for me has really been failing to kill, or even hurt, things outside of trash mobs.

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

I could see it being worse against Sv5 things but I don't really notice a difference. Stalker Bolters, sure.

[Xisor]

New(/resurrected) ammo types?

Metal storm: doubles the shots of a weapon, +1 AP (to 0), -6".

Annihilation rounds: X Dam becomes XD3 Damage; -6" range.

 

I was flicking through Codex: Bolt Weapons and it occurred to me: the Primaris introduced an unholy proliferation of bolt weapons. I'd love to see them standardised a bit, if only for sanity's sake. Guard/Index only introduce maybe six bolt weapons (two megabolters, condemnor and it's MC, Custodian Guardian weapons), but Marines had pushing two-dozen distinct varieties.

 

We could jump in feet first and instead of SIA, go for a hundred varieties of Special Issue Bolters, aka Plan SIB.

[Thanatos31]

Guys - does somebody have a summary of the special rules of the DW in 7th edition ? Maybe to examine what COULD be done in our Codex

[Moostick]

Played my first few matches since CA dropped. Lost all 3 times, conceding by Turn 4 or 5. Tyranid, Guard, and Chaos. I got completely obliterated by the two horde armies; complete one sided thrashing. I won in terms of combat against Chaos, but lost because of some really unlucky objective cards, while he got a lot of giveme ones.

 

Our warlord trait and strategems are pretty terrible. You generally want to make your Warlord safe in the back, so it'll likely be the Watchmaster, but he has nothing that can wound a vehicle or monster easily. Can risk it with a Captain with PF/TH/Melta, but that's almost giving the enemy a free point with slay the warlord. Don't even feel I need to explain the strategems.

 

I'm definitely going to shelf my Infernus Predator now. All my opponents knew of its threat and just destroyed/crippled it T1. Xiphon is good, but it's really hit or miss (literally). Whiffing all Lascannons and Missiles in a turn...you really feel it if this happens on even a single turn. It just got completely ignored in two of my matches, and got smited 4 times to death on 1 turn in the last match. Smite really needs a fix.

 

One opponent I played for the very first time and it was his first time playing Deathwatch. He said he now understands why no one plays them.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention I tried out Lightning Claw VVs. Wow are they bad. Like really, really bad.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Moostick

[Irbis]

To be fair, Index vs Codex is uphill for pretty much anyone.

 

I wonder, given DA and BA releases, if DW will get Primaris sergeant (with xenophase sword?) or at least upgrades. If not, it might really be time to admit the faction was phoned in job from the start...

[Macabre Slanneshi Prince]

Our Primaris sergeant will be able to take either a Chainsword or a Power Sword.

[Xisor]

Deathwatch Lieutenants surely carry Master Crafted Deathwatch Specialist Megabolt Heavy Assault Pistols? I think that's the only combination so far omitted.

[LunarSol]

Anyone else feel like SIA doesn't put out as much mileage as before, despite doing the exact same thing as it did in 7th?

 

I don't know it's the change to AP and D, the emergence of horde as a powerhouse, or whether it's just my imagination, but SIA for me has really been failing to kill, or even hurt, things outside of trash mobs.

 

In 7th DW had the option to reroll everything that largely made up for our lack of volume of fire.  In 8th edition they took away the DW rerolls and gave them to basically everyone else, so now we have a lower volume of fire that's also less reliable.

[Moostick]

 

Anyone else feel like SIA doesn't put out as much mileage as before, despite doing the exact same thing as it did in 7th?

 

I don't know it's the change to AP and D, the emergence of horde as a powerhouse, or whether it's just my imagination, but SIA for me has really been failing to kill, or even hurt, things outside of trash mobs.

 

In 7th DW had the option to reroll everything that largely made up for our lack of volume of fire.  In 8th edition they took away the DW rerolls and gave them to basically everyone else, so now we have a lower volume of fire that's also less reliable.

 

 

I forgot about the rerolls to Hit and Wounds of 1 already in 7th. This could be a big part of it. Me feeling MEQs taking the biggest brunt of the change to AP might also be a part of it.

 

I've been playing around with half DW/BA lists, and assuming they do nothing but point reductions, I still feel our best use is as devastator teams. Being able to circumvent the troop requirements and taking 4 heavies right off the bat will probably make up for the point difference. This is, of course, if they reduce our points or remove SIA from our base cost, which they better do. I think that's the one thing that will actually make me angry - if they don't separate or remove the SIA costs from our units. Sternguards are already considered "bad" this edition, and we compounding on that even more.

 

Deathwatch Lieutenants surely carry Master Crafted Deathwatch Specialist Megabolt Heavy Assault Pistols? I think that's the only combination so far omitted.

 

What about the 48" grenade launcher attachment that comes stock?

 

Edit: weird formatting error fix

Edited December 11, 2017 by Moostick

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Anyone else feel like SIA doesn't put out as much mileage as before, despite doing the exact same thing as it did in 7th?

 

I don't know it's the change to AP and D, the emergence of horde as a powerhouse, or whether it's just my imagination, but SIA for me has really been failing to kill, or even hurt, things outside of trash mobs.

 

Yeah the changes in how AP and cover work has really hurt SIA. Before vengeance rounds were great for MEQ units and they still are decent but its gone from no save to a modifier which is worse, more so because we could minimize the always gets hot. Hellfire was great for monsters and hordes now its good vs. monsters but hordes get a save (vengeance tend to be better). Kraken are primaris bolters lol. Dragon Fire I actually think I use more now, +1 to hit is pretty good and cover isn't over the top but ignoring cover would be amazing with how rare it is.

 

So in short its much worse. I'm actually starting to hope we lose it and gain some stratagems that allow vets to do some crazy stuff with bolters in a more epic fashion. I'd also like it if they dropped vets to 1 attack base, and charged regular tactical marine costs. That extra attack works out to 3 ppm and that's just too much.

[Major_Gilbear]

Regarding points-pricing issues, I can't help but wonder if the 4/5 types of bolt weapon that use SIA should just be renamed as "Deathwatch Bolt Pistol", "Deathwatch Bolter", etc.

 

This would allow them to have their own profile, their own points values, and the SIA points can thus be baked into the weapon rather than into the baseline cost of nearly every trooper model.

 

It may be a small thing, but when most models are 2-3 points more expensive regardless of the weapons they have, that can add up to a considerable amount over an army.

 

Anyway, just a thought I had.

[Vel'Cona]

Regarding points-pricing issues, I can't help but wonder if the 4/5 types of bolt weapon that use SIA should just be renamed as "Deathwatch Bolt Pistol", "Deathwatch Bolter", etc.

 

I love this idea, and it's a great logical fix that has worked well for C: SM SG  :D