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Key guidelines/factors for a tournament-winning army?


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#1
BIG ROB OF DEATH

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I have been reading the boards here, and elsewhere, for awhile now. I am hoping to collect your best recommendations/considerations for creating a winning army- meaning, one that in your opinion has a better than even chance in a 2000 pt, three detachment, blind tournament based upon rule book scenarios and missions, with the only assumption being that a reasonably experienced player would feel reasonably confident in taking such an army going into such a tournament situation and having reasonable odds of prevailing. Please don't restrict yourself to having all three detachments being AM; if you care to offer suggestions with allies in mind (say, for example, two AM detachments and one SM detachment), then by all means share. The only condition I respectfully ask is that in any of your advice you keep in mind that at least one of the detachments MUST be AM!

 

Thanks in advance, and I will begin by distilling what I consider to be near-consensus words of wisdom from all here who have been posting since 8th edition came out, and especially so since the latest AM codex came out. Once we have had ample time to post accordingly and given due consideration to each other's postings, I will then try to come up with a list that best factors in, embodies, or otherwise translates your guidance/keys into our consensus winning army list. So, let me start by first posting what I consider some the keys I've discerned and summarized from you all so far that tend to come up regularly across many postings:

 

1.   Quantity is its own quality.

2.   The more CPs the better

3.   Alpha strikes seem somewhat broadly important

4.   Bubble wrap seems somewhat broadly important

5.   Heavier weaponry should be sufficient to expeditiously take out high toughness, multi-wound threats 

6.   Regimental choice seems to lend certain vital advantages to certain units

7.   Strategems are potentially very valuable

8.   Stacking auras and such can be advantageous 

9.   Anything can kill anything now

10. FRFSRF can be valuable 

 

 

I hope I have sufficiently kindled what will turn into a roaring, broad-ranging discussion that will bring out the consensus best judgement of our community. Lets contribute freely the best of our insights, with the ultimate intent of bringing about what we collectively believe is that elusive, best AM tournament army! Thanks in advance for your respectful and thoughtful contributions!


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#2
noigrim

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valhallan pistol relic +2 30x conscripts

leman russ punishers

ally with spearhead of salamander laser devastators


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#3
Khornate individual

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And maybe with those salamanders, a unit of scouts with sniper rifles.


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#4
Halfpint100

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WAAC it is then

 

Current meta is smite and psyker spam with lots of orders.

 

Earthshaker Batteries

primaris psykers for smite

Astropaths for other powers

6 guard squads with plasma and lascannons as a firebase

compnay commanders for orders

mortar HWTs 

 

Valhallan bolt pistol and conscripts

outflanking 3 hellhounds as tallarn 

 

multiple valkyrie bullgyrn T1 charges

 

17 hellhounds and 1 company commander in a chimera (spammy, but comes to 2k) BURN THEM ALL


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#5
Gibbous

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I don't really have the experience to comprehensively comment on this, but I have been studying just about every day. I have been building lists, and trying to find my weak spots. Here is a list I've recently built that I think would not only be good, but would at the very lease, be a PITA for anyone to be beat. 

 

Run Cadian Doctrine and Tempestus Doctrine.

Creed Warloard +2 CP

Kell to protect

Ogryn Body Guard to protect Creed as well

Pask becomes bullet magnet, need Tech-Priest to heal. Punisher 40 shots, 2+ to hit, reroll 1's

Primaris Psycher -1 to hit or +1 to Pask's Save

Astropaths to stop infantry from running

Scout Sentinels to push deep strike bubble

Scions for deep strike.

 

Weakness, air...

 

Total CPs 14

 

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [21 PL, 507pts] ++
 
Regiment: Astra Millitarum/Imperium
 
+ HQ +
 
Tempestor Prime [3 PL, 40pts]: Astra Militarum Orders, Tempestus Command Rod
 
Tempestor Prime [3 PL, 40pts]: Tempestus Command Rod
 
+ Troops +
 
Militarum Tempestus Scions [5 PL, 149pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Scion w/ Vox-caster: Hot-shot Laspistol, Vox-caster
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol
 
Militarum Tempestus Scions [5 PL, 153pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Vox-caster: Hot-shot Laspistol, Vox-caster
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol
 
Militarum Tempestus Scions [5 PL, 125pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Scion w/ Vox-caster: Hot-shot Laspistol, Vox-caster
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol
 
++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [88 PL, 1486pts] ++
 
+ No Force Org Slot +
 
Regiment: Astra Millitarum/Imperium
 
+ HQ +
 
Knight Commander Pask [13 PL, 221pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters
. Command Punisher: Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon
 
Lord Castellan Creed [4 PL, 70pts]: Astra Militarum Orders
 
Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 40pts]: 3) Psychic Barrier, 4) Nightshroud, Force Stave, RELIC OF LOST CADIA
 
+ Troops +
 
Conscripts [3 PL, 60pts]: 20x Conscript
 
Conscripts [3 PL, 60pts]: 20x Conscript
 
Conscripts [4 PL, 90pts]: 30x Conscript
 
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol
 
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol
 
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol
 
+ Elites +
 
Astropath [1 PL, 21pts]: 5) Mental Fortitude, Telepathica Stave
 
Astropath [1 PL, 21pts]: 5) Mental Fortitude, Telepathica Stave
 
Astropath [1 PL, 21pts]: 5) Mental Fortitude, Telepathica Stave
 
Astropath [1 PL, 21pts]: 5) Mental Fortitude, Telepathica Stave
 
Colour Sergeant Kell [3 PL, 50pts]
 
Ogryn Bodyguard [4 PL, 60pts]: Bullgryn Plate, Huge Knife, Ripper Gun
 
Tech-Priest Enginseer [2 PL, 42pts]: Servo-arm
 
+ Fast Attack +
 
Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 50pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Autocannon
 
Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 50pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Autocannon
 
Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 52pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Heavy Flamer
 
+ Heavy Support +
 
Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 152pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
 
Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 152pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
 
Manticore [8 PL, 133pts]: Heavy Bolter
 
++ Total: [109 PL, 1993pts] ++

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#6
Spyboy

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I don't really have the experience to comprehensively comment on this, but I have been studying just about every day. I have been building lists, and trying to find my weak spots. Here is a list I've recently built that I think would not only be good, but would at the very lease, be a PITA for anyone to be beat. 

 

Run Cadian Doctrine and Tempestus Doctrine.

(1) Creed Warloard +2 CP

Kell to protect

Ogryn Body Guard to protect Creed as well

(2) Pask becomes bullet magnet, need Tech-Priest to heal. Punisher 40 shots, 2+ to hit, reroll 1's

Primaris Psycher -1 to hit or +1 to Pask's Save

(3) Astropaths to stop infantry from running

Scout Sentinels to push deep strike bubble

Scions for deep strike.

 

Weakness, air...

 

Total CPs 14

 

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [21 PL, 507pts] ++
 
Regiment: Astra Millitarum/Imperium
 
+ HQ +
 
Tempestor Prime [3 PL, 40pts]: Astra Militarum Orders, Tempestus Command Rod
 
Tempestor Prime [3 PL, 40pts]: Tempestus Command Rod
 
(4) + Troops +
 
Militarum Tempestus Scions [5 PL, 149pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Scion w/ Vox-caster: Hot-shot Laspistol, Vox-caster
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol
 
Militarum Tempestus Scions [5 PL, 153pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Plasma gun
. Scion w/ Vox-caster: Hot-shot Laspistol, Vox-caster
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol
 
Militarum Tempestus Scions [5 PL, 125pts]
. 4x Scion: 4x Hot-shot Lasgun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Scion w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun
. Scion w/ Vox-caster: Hot-shot Laspistol, Vox-caster
. Tempestor: Chainsword, Hot-shot Laspistol
 
++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [88 PL, 1486pts] ++
 
+ No Force Org Slot +
 
Regiment: Astra Millitarum/Imperium
 
+ HQ +
 
Knight Commander Pask [13 PL, 221pts]: Heavy Bolter, Heavy Bolters
. Command Punisher: Turret-mounted Punisher Gatling Cannon
 
Lord Castellan Creed [4 PL, 70pts]: Astra Militarum Orders
 
(5) Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 40pts]: 3) Psychic Barrier, 4) Nightshroud, Force Stave, RELIC OF LOST CADIA
 
+ Troops +
 
Conscripts [3 PL, 60pts]: 20x Conscript
 
Conscripts [3 PL, 60pts]: 20x Conscript
 
Conscripts [4 PL, 90pts]: 30x Conscript
 
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol
 
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol
 
Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Chainsword, Laspistol
 
+ Elites +
 
Astropath [1 PL, 21pts]: 5) Mental Fortitude, Telepathica Stave
 
Astropath [1 PL, 21pts]: 5) Mental Fortitude, Telepathica Stave
 
Astropath [1 PL, 21pts]: 5) Mental Fortitude, Telepathica Stave
 
Astropath [1 PL, 21pts]: 5) Mental Fortitude, Telepathica Stave
 
Colour Sergeant Kell [3 PL, 50pts]
 
Ogryn Bodyguard [4 PL, 60pts]: Bullgryn Plate, Huge Knife, Ripper Gun
 
Tech-Priest Enginseer [2 PL, 42pts]: Servo-arm
 
+ Fast Attack +
 
Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 50pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Autocannon
 
Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 50pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Autocannon
 
Scout Sentinels [3 PL, 52pts]
. Scout Sentinel: Heavy Flamer
 
+ Heavy Support +
 
Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 152pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
 
Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 152pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
 
Manticore [8 PL, 133pts]: Heavy Bolter
 
++ Total: [109 PL, 1993pts] ++

 

I don't wish to sound harsh here, but I can see some problems with this list.  Some of these problems are only such because we are talking tournament lists and are perfectly fine in pick up games and the like. (On that note what exactly does waac mean?) I have added numbers to address them easier (thanks to someone on these forums for that idea)

 

(1) Ah Creed, I want to like him, I even started a post on him here on B & C not too long ago, should still be able to find it if you want.  Long story short, more efficient to use company commanders. more orders for your points, more versatility,  and more resilient. (I know you have two bodygaurds but those points could be better spent on other units and upgrades if you have company commanders, losing a CC is not going to hurt near as much as losing Creed)  This also lets you use the grand strategist warlord trait which I think everyone would agree is the best one.

 

(2) 2000pts. is way more then enough for most competitive armies to kill a Leman Russ in one turn, Pask is great but should never survive past turn 2, and you will not likely get a chance to heal him. Investing so many points into a unit that will still die fairly easily and support units that will be less effective when their charge is dead definitely hurts, especially seeing as in your list your biggest target for enemy antitank is Pask.

 

(3) You can only cast Mental Fortitude once per turn, so having three units of conscripts all vying for this spell..... well your opponent can just shoot the two squads that don't have it.  Maybe one maxed unit of conscripts with an astropath, spend the other points on infantry squads maybe?

 

(4) Hot-shot volley guns are not the greatest being dropped as they suffer the -1 to hit and thus cannot benefit from their doctrine.  maybe make some of the MT units smaller and add a command squad, all with plasma or melta?

 

(5) The Primaris Psyker cannot have the Relic of Lost Cadia, it does not have the <Regiment> or Cadian keyword.

 

If any of this is wrong please fell free to correct me. 

 

 

Those are just my ramblings but I don't have the depth of experiance some others on B and C have.


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#7
Brother Tual

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Big Rob. You are asking for the holy grail of 40k.

My advice... 90% of posts are authored by people who wish they played but actually dont or never have played competatively. They largely just waste your time making you read endless posts.

The only way to do well in a proper tournament is to play 100s of games. Build a list you like the look of or net deck. Play 10 games against different people. Change 1 thing. Play 10 more. Change 1 more thing. After 5 or 6 changes you should have 'your list'... then play the poo out of it 100 more games with 0 changes unless new models/rules. Why no changes? So you learn to play your list. You cant change composition mid tournament. Once you submit your list you have to deal with what and who you are paired against. If you havent learnt to adapt what you have in practice... well even changes in your composition wont help you at the top end of the game.

Looking for an equation/silver bullet wont work... otherwise everyone who had access to the internet would win all the things. Just try what you have in mind already or merge it with an internet list you like then play it.
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#8
Halfpint100

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WAAC = Win at all costs, acronym for when winning is more important than the joy of the game, generally if you want to win a tourny thats what you need.

 

Just going to add to my original point

 

I have found redundancy guards best thing in this edition, if you have multiple of most things, doesn't matter if you loose them, for the price of a tooled up pask, i can almost fit in 2 russes. For the price of creed, i can fit in 2 company commanders, stuff like that. It is why i recommended 6 infantry squads, I use that many in 1k points and it was worked really well for me, i have more bodies than they have guns and with ld9 inquisitors behind them smiting and buffing, combined with the moral strategems guard have, they do not run (well rarely). 


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#9
duz_

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Lets keep it civil

Any list reviews should go in the appropriate forum

:tu:

#10
Spyboy

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Are leman russ tanks even good enough for waac? seems to me without any way to make them more survivable they are too easy to kill.

@halfpint, Thanks, I never could figure out what it stood for even though I had a general idea.

Edited by Spyboy, 15 November 2017 - 01:58 PM.


#11
Halfpint100

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Not sure. I have only ever done a kill team tourney. Which I came top in :P but it is completely different to a full tourney.

I would say russes can be. 152 points for battle cannon and heavy bolter, T8 W12 is decent. 3-5 of them would be very tricky to deal with!
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#12
Spyboy

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Quantity is its own quality.  Ya I guess fielding enough of them would make them more resilient.  152 isn't really that bad at all for a bare bones russ.  Which variants would people say are worth it?  Battle Cannon and Punisher for sure, any others?


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#13
BIG ROB OF DEATH

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Thanks to all who have contributed so far: noigrim, Khornate individual, Halfpint 100, Gibbous, Spyboy, Brother Tual, and duz_. If I have it right, these are the general recommendations you all have offered, which I will add to my initial list of 10 factors/keys:

 

 

1.   Quantity is its own quality.

2.   The more CPs the better

3.   Alpha strikes seem somewhat broadly important

4.   Bubble wrap seems somewhat broadly important

5.   Heavier weaponry should be sufficient to expeditiously take out high toughness, multi-wound threats 

6.   Regimental choice seems to lend certain vital advantages to certain units

7.   Strategems are potentially very valuable

8.   Stacking auras and such can be advantageous 

9.   Anything can kill anything now

10. FRFSRF can be valuable

11. Heirlooms of Conquest as per Regiments chosen (Valhallan pistol in particular so far)

12. leman russ punishers

13. allies (salamander laser devastators and scout snipers in particular so far)

14. smite and psyker spam (primaris and astropaths)

15. lots of orders

16. Earthshakers

17. mortar HWTs

18. las/plas infantry squads

19. conscripts

20. Outflanking elements (Tallarn hellhounds mentioned so far)

21. Flyers as support for T1 charge (Valkyrie w/bullgrins mentioned so far)

22. 17 hellhounds and 1 company commander in a chimera

23. Cadian and Tempestus doctrines

24. Creed and kell

25. Ogryn bodyguards

26. Pask and tech-priest

27. scout sentinels

28. scions for deep strike

29. leman russ tanks/variants

30. manticore(s)

31. company commanders

32. redundacy

 

Is that fair so far? Also, as per duz_'s  gentle admonishment, lets not offer specific lists just yet, or at least on this particular thread...... lets keep it general, and once its clear no more suggestions are forthcoming, then lets prioritize them, and then lets come up with a list that reflects our collective wisdom on the appropriate forum! Press on!


Edited by BIG ROB OF DEATH, 15 November 2017 - 03:22 PM.


#14
Halfpint100

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Battle cannons are your best friends for barebone russes have great range, good str, decent ap and damage. Maybe punishers. But I prefer basic ones

Relic of lost cadia gives re-roll 1s to hit and wound in a 12" bubble for one turn, very close useful for alpha strike. (Plus vs chaos, it is re-roll all)
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#15
micahwc

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I kind of disagree with the more CP the better, as I have found you don't get extra victory points for having them left over at the end of the match. If you end up making list changes specifically to get a brigade for the 12 CP, but you have to include something you really don't want to bring (sentinels), how much are you actually gaining? I can fill a minimum battalion for 170 points, 3 sentinels with lascannons is 180 points.

 

I've made lists where I could have 20+ command points, but I have to wonder what the optimum amount of command points is.


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The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#16
Withershadow

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Big Rob. You are asking for the holy grail of 40k.

My advice... 90% of posts are authored by people who wish they played but actually dont or never have played competatively. They largely just waste your time making you read endless posts.

The only way to do well in a proper tournament is to play 100s of games.

This post is so true. This category of folks also tends to be the most vocal and adamant with their opinions, which tend to be lifted from pasts threads and posts that were likewise stated forcefully enough to catch their attention. If you ever post a tournament report of your successes, and someone starts haranguing you that something in your list you won with is stupid and suboptimal and can never win... then you have found yourself a prime example of one of these paper tigers.

Knowing your list and having a wide variety of experience is far more important than the list itself.
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#17
micahwc

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Thoughts on a maxed out Valhallan shadowsword with psyker support for a better save? 10 heavy bolters, 4 lascannons, and a volcano cannon is a deal at the point cost. It also helps with the number of drops you have to place.

 

Any more thoughts on combining the shadowsword with a storm lord to carry all your troops? Disembark them all (or not) first turn to keep the number of drops down. It forces your opponents to deal with two very hard targets, and even with 1000 points in superheavies you still have plenty of points to bring a lot of troops on the table.


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The Codex Astartes no doubt has guidance that covers that kind of situation - long, detailed advice that would essentially boil down to "shoot the choppy ones, chop the shooty ones".


#18
BIG ROB OF DEATH

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Thanks again to Halfpint100 for continuing contributions, and thanks to new contributors micahwc and Withershadow! I hope I have distilled your contributions correctly, and added them accordingly. This is what I fairly believe to be the collective wisdom of all contributors so far (setting aside the experience and experiment factors raised by Brother Tual, and seconded by Withershadow, as they are quite valid, but simply don't translate directly for my purposes here): 

 

 

1.   Quantity is its own quality.

2.   The more CPs the better

3.   Alpha strikes seem somewhat broadly important

4.   Bubble wrap seems somewhat broadly important

5.   Heavier weaponry should be sufficient to expeditiously take out high toughness, multi-wound threats 

6.   Regimental choice seems to lend certain vital advantages to certain units

7.   Strategems are potentially very valuable

8.   Stacking auras and such can be advantageous 

9.   Anything can kill anything now

10. FRFSRF can be valuable

11. Heirlooms of Conquest as per Regiments chosen (Valhallan pistol in particular so far)

12. leman russ punishers

13. allies (salamander laser devastators and scout snipers in particular so far)

14. smite and psyker spam (primaris and astropaths)

15. lots of orders

16. Earthshakers

17. mortar HWTs

18. las/plas infantry squads

19. conscripts

20. Outflanking elements (Tallarn hellhounds mentioned so far)

21. Flyers as support for T1 charge (Valkyrie w/bullgrins mentioned so far)

22. 17 hellhounds and 1 company commander in a chimera

23. Cadian and Tempestus doctrines

24. Creed and kell

25. Ogryn bodyguards

26. Pask and tech-priest

27. scout sentinels

28. scions for deep strike

29. leman russ tanks/variants

30. manticore(s)

31. company commanders

32. redundacy

33. battle cannon bare-bone Russes, but maybe Punishers too

34. specific regiment-appropriate relic (Relic of Lost Cadia specifically mentioned)

35. Optimal number of CPs instead of maximum number of CPs

36. maxed out Valhallan shadowsword with psyker support

37. said shadowsword with stormlord

 

 

Again, lets just keep brainstorming and laying out general guidelines/important considerations when making a tournament-winning army. Once we've exhausted these factors/suggestions. we will then prioritize them, and then finally let this prioritized compendium best inform our final army list! Thanks, and keep 'em comin'!



#19
FallenSoldiers

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Everyone talks about the decimation alpha strike causes, but I feel the Guard are in a very good position to minimize that damage with good deployment and list building. We have the ability to bubble wrap with chaff, hide out of LoS, and even neutralize a deep strike team through Scions. I’ve been experimenting with leaving Scions on the table near a “juicy” target and baiting my opponent to drop in some Terminators. I’ll take those shots at them when they arrive before they shoot me, and have effectively neutered an alpha strike unit.

Things like Earthshakers (no matter the platform) that don’t need LOS should be easily defendable. Same with Mortar teams. Spamming HWTs of mortars (especially with Cadian rules) nails the “quantity over quality” as well. Roll enough dice, they’re bound to take wounds.

People love lascannons, I find that if I don’t have them to excess they never perform well. Personal opinion there. I prefer the mobility of plasma en masse. Deepstriking Scions with plasma + orders can quickly neutralize a threat, the downside is realizing they need to be considered expendable because they’re gonna die next turn.

I’ve been playing around with the idea of adding Celestine + assassins + sisters of Silence into a detachment to be my psyker hunters and smite deniers. Haven’t tried it yet, I doubt it’s WAAC worthy, but Celestine is clearly turning heads at tournaments all over.
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#20
Withershadow

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Another thing to note is that relics are flexible.  Since you pay for them after the game has started, you don't have to pre-select anything, so you can tailor your relics to your opponent.  Just make sure you have appropriate slots for them.  Opponent has lots of CP?  Bring Kurov's Aquila.  Are you Cadian and he's playing Chaos?  Bring the Lost Relic.  None of the above?  Laurels of Command.  Etc.



#21
FallenSoldiers

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Another thing to note is that relics are flexible. Since you pay for them after the game has started, you don't have to pre-select anything, so you can tailor your relics to your opponent. Just make sure you have appropriate slots for them. Opponent has lots of CP? Bring Kurov's Aquila. Are you Cadian and he's playing Chaos? Bring the Lost Relic. None of the above? Laurels of Command. Etc.


That’s an interesting point. I’d be interested to hear from people about how that is handled in tournaments they’ve played in where you need to submit a list ahead of time. Do they require relics on those lists? Or can you swap them around? Same with psychic powers.
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#22
Kruso

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Another thing to note is that relics are flexible. Since you pay for them after the game has started, you don't have to pre-select anything, so you can tailor your relics to your opponent. Just make sure you have appropriate slots for them. Opponent has lots of CP? Bring Kurov's Aquila. Are you Cadian and he's playing Chaos? Bring the Lost Relic. None of the above? Laurels of Command. Etc.

That’s an interesting point. I’d be interested to hear from people about how that is handled in tournaments they’ve played in where you need to submit a list ahead of time. Do they require relics on those lists? Or can you swap them around? Same with psychic powers.

Most tournaments in my experience require relics and psychic powers to be listed, but you can change them before the game. If you forget you use those you have listed. Prevents conflicts midgame.
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-Heresy grows from idleness-


#23
Chris521

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Thanks again to Halfpint100 for continuing contributions, and thanks to new contributors micahwc and Withershadow! I hope I have distilled your contributions correctly, and added them accordingly. This is what I fairly believe to be the collective wisdom of all contributors so far (setting aside the experience and experiment factors raised by Brother Tual, and seconded by Withershadow, as they are quite valid, but simply don't translate directly for my purposes here): 

 

 

1.   Quantity is its own quality.

2.   The more CPs the better

3.   Alpha strikes seem somewhat broadly important

4.   Bubble wrap seems somewhat broadly important

5.   Heavier weaponry should be sufficient to expeditiously take out high toughness, multi-wound threats 

6.   Regimental choice seems to lend certain vital advantages to certain units

7.   Strategems are potentially very valuable

8.   Stacking auras and such can be advantageous 

9.   Anything can kill anything now

10. FRFSRF can be valuable

11. Heirlooms of Conquest as per Regiments chosen (Valhallan pistol in particular so far)

12. leman russ punishers

13. allies (salamander laser devastators and scout snipers in particular so far)

14. smite and psyker spam (primaris and astropaths)

15. lots of orders

16. Earthshakers

17. mortar HWTs

18. las/plas infantry squads

19. conscripts

20. Outflanking elements (Tallarn hellhounds mentioned so far)

21. Flyers as support for T1 charge (Valkyrie w/bullgrins mentioned so far)

22. 17 hellhounds and 1 company commander in a chimera

23. Cadian and Tempestus doctrines

24. Creed and kell

25. Ogryn bodyguards

26. Pask and tech-priest

27. scout sentinels

28. scions for deep strike

29. leman russ tanks/variants

30. manticore(s)

31. company commanders

32. redundacy

33. battle cannon bare-bone Russes, but maybe Punishers too

34. specific regiment-appropriate relic (Relic of Lost Cadia specifically mentioned)

35. Optimal number of CPs instead of maximum number of CPs

36. maxed out Valhallan shadowsword with psyker support

37. said shadowsword with stormlord

 

 

Again, lets just keep brainstorming and laying out general guidelines/important considerations when making a tournament-winning army. Once we've exhausted these factors/suggestions. we will then prioritize them, and then finally let this prioritized compendium best inform our final army list! Thanks, and keep 'em comin'!

At this point, your listing half the codex.


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#24
Spyboy

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I also think some of those points are very niche, or are not waac. Points 2, 9, 10, 11, 15, 32, 34 and 35 I don't think need to be listed, most people looking to build a waac list know those facts by heart already.

Edited by Spyboy, 16 November 2017 - 01:33 AM.


#25
BIG ROB OF DEATH

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Right now I'm simply trying to fairly list all those ideas/suggestions that the community at large cares to share. At this point I'm not trying to whittle things down- that will come soon enough as we prioritize and then make collective decisions on which points get materially incorporated into our final list. So, keep brainstorming!

 

1.   Quantity is its own quality.

2.   The more CPs the better

3.   Alpha strikes seem somewhat broadly important

4.   Bubble wrap seems somewhat broadly important

5.   Heavier weaponry should be sufficient to expeditiously take out high toughness, multi-wound threats 

6.   Regimental choice seems to lend certain vital advantages to certain units

7.   Strategems are potentially very valuable

8.   Stacking auras and such can be advantageous 

9.   Anything can kill anything now

10. FRFSRF can be valuable

11. Heirlooms of Conquest as per Regiments chosen (Valhallan pistol in particular so far)

12. leman russ punishers

13. allies (salamander laser devastators and scout snipers in particular so far)

14. smite and psyker spam (primaris and astropaths)

15. lots of orders

16. Earthshakers

17. mortar HWTs

18. las/plas infantry squads

19. conscripts

20. Outflanking elements (Tallarn hellhounds mentioned so far)

21. Flyers as support for T1 charge (Valkyrie w/bullgrins mentioned so far)

22. 17 hellhounds and 1 company commander in a chimera

23. Cadian and Tempestus doctrines

24. Creed and kell

25. Ogryn bodyguards

26. Pask and tech-priest

27. scout sentinels

28. scions for deep strike

29. leman russ tanks/variants

30. manticore(s)

31. company commanders

32. redundacy

33. battle cannon bare-bone Russes, but maybe Punishers too

34. specific regiment-appropriate relic (Relic of Lost Cadia specifically mentioned)

35. Optimal number of CPs instead of maximum number of CPs

36. maxed out Valhallan shadowsword with psyker support

37. said shadowsword with stormlord

38. anti-alpha strike plans/units/tactics

39. mobile plasma, especially when deep-striking with scions

40.  Celestine + assassins + sisters of Silence

41. exploitation of tournament rules if allowed so as to customize relics and psychic powers each game depending on opponent lists

 

Again, we're just brainstorming right now, so feel free to suggest what you think is helpful in advancing this project. No doubt our collective judgement will be needed to prioritize and select the best suggestions, in order to fit into the 2000 pt, 3 detachment, blind tournament conditions I initially laid out. Keep rollin'!






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