Air Assault - viable?

[Frostglaive]

I'm an Admech player primarily, looking to add an allied force of Guard to my plastic arsenal. I haven't played Guard since 6th ed, I don't own their latest codex, so all I know is from what I've fought against. Which is why I'd like your advice.

 

Here's what I'm thinking: AdMech have no flyers. Guard have flyers. I want flyers. So I'm thinking I'll make an Air-Wing detachment of 3 Valkyries. And adding in a small Battalion detachment as well. Three squads of..... something, a bare-bones commander with each squad, and maybe an officer of the fleet to ride along as well to help those flyers out.

 

My questions for you guys: I haven't seen Valkyries on the table since the Guard codex came out. How viable are they now? What are their capabilities? I'm assuming I should throw in some Scions into them for the Battalion I mentioned. What should I kit them with? How many in each? And what would all this look like points-wise? How cheap can I go so I can still have a decent AdMech force on the table? We'll assume a 2000pts army list, since that's more or less the standard in my meta.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Feral_80]

Valkyrie are expensive but very nice, and the only good configuration is 2x missile pods. You don't want other upgrades generally.

 

Scions actually gain little to nothing from a Valkyrie because they can already deep strike, so no. You want to use Valkyries to deliver close combat assault and/or short range fire (possibly followed by assault).

 

This means that Valkyrie perform well with Bullgryns and with Catachans. For the latter you have many options, depending on the rest of your army. For example I like Harker + command/special weapon squads with plasma to reroll 1s. Add a company commander (or even Straken, but AP 1 is a severe limit) for orders, and a full flamer squad if needed, and you have a heavy hitting and mobile force. 

 

There are other options of course, e.g. Mordian execution platoon if you really need to take out some characters. But the Catachan one works quite well, and has that magic Vietnam style.

[Mitchverr]

It depends on if your willing to go forgeworld or not.

 

If you will, I would recommend going elysians and taking vultures with punishers, infantry are a lil more expencive(10 points more per squad), but can drop in anywhere you need them to be when you need them there, allowing your air choice to not be hindered by thinking on moving the guard contingent. If you really want bang for your buck however the thunderbolt is always a personal favorite but are points heavy. This also means you can take an officer of the fleet with the elysian keyword allowing him to deep strike to where you want him and not be hindered in location.

 

As for Scions, very expencive per model, but they dont need valks so it means you can bring vultures if you wish instead to back them up.

 

Vulture is by far the "best" air support in the guard armoury in my view, same price as a valk but with a pair of punishers for 40 shots of pain.

[Frostglaive]

For the sake of my wallet, I'm going to avoid Forge World for the time being. So just going to stick with Valkyries for my flyers.

 

I agree that Scions wouldn't benefit from riding in flyers. Fluff-wise it'd make sense since they'd be paired up with my AdMech (variation of the Skitarii maybe?). The Catachan idea had me rolling with laughter for a moment. All I can think of is Apocalypse Now, so thanks for that.

What about instead of a Battalion detachment added to my Air-Wing, what about a Vanguard? Three squads of Veterans? Vets any good this edition? Haven't seen any around for a while.

[Mitchverr]

You can always proxy, or buy a valk and stick punishers on it (a friend of mine did this lol), just meaning rules wise ^^

[Feral_80]

Vets are definitely playable. Not bad, not great. Certainly viable if you like them. 

 

You'll get a better mileage for your slots/points if you go command/special weapon squads, but that's your choice. The concept is practically the same, the important part is to have them supported by auras and orders.

 

If you want to take 3 full Valkyrie, I'd probably fill 2 with your choice of infantry above and the third with Bullgryns, unless you have other assault troops. Some Characters in the remaining slots. One Valkyrie might go down turn 1, so spread threats evenly when embarking.

 

This 'support force' is quickly becoming 1/2 of your army in terms of points.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Feral_80

[micahwc]

Valkyries with multi-laser, heavy bolters, and rocket pods are decent anti-GEQs. They are kind of a half measure though, there are vehicles better at transporting models and vehicles better at killing enemy troops, and some that are better at both of those roles than the Valkyrie, which is a shame as the Valkyrie looks great. It's best use is Grav Chute Insertion, so if your plan for a Valkyrie doesn't include Grav Chute Insertion you could probably spend the points better somewhere else unless you just like how cool they look.

 

Edit: Your initial statement is that you want flyers. What do you want flyers for? The Xiphon Interceptor is an amazing flyer for anti-air and anti-tank stuff. It doesn't have a penalty to move and fire it's four lascannons, and it gets a bonus to fire against enemy flyers. It's Forgeworld, but it's not too pricey compared to other Forgeworld models. I hear that Stormraven Gunships are also really good, likely more points efficient than a Valkyrie due to the better weapons load outs and better BS. Storm Talons likewise seem to be pretty decent. Vultures are the best guard flyer, Vendettas are not really worth the points because they are expensive with lascannons and they hit on 5+ if they ever move.

 

If you are bringing three flyers in a flyer wing you don't have to bring any infantry with them unless you want to for thematic/rule of cool reasons. Basically, whatever your intention for the flyers will generate a different recommended flyer. If you want dedicated anti-air/anti-vehicle the Xiphon is really hard to beat for around 230 points. (Chaos version is 230, Loyalist is slightly less but can only turn 90 degrees once per movement whereas the chaos one can turn twice). Three Xiphons are around 700 points, which isn't horrible. If you want anti-infantry than either a stormraven, stormtalon, Vulture, and/or Corvus Blackstar would be the best choice.

 

Edit 2: If you are using set on using Valkyries than I would recommend multi-laser and rocket pods to keep it cheap, and then fill it with either Vets or command squads with melta/plasma guns. Grav chute the vets/command squads within 9" of melta range of a juicy target. Troops get to disembark during the Valkyries movement with Grav Chute Insertion, they disembark 3" and then get their normal move, so you can get into melta range of a target from 15" away.

Edited November 17, 2017 by micahwc

[Withershadow]

Multi-lasers are so terrible, there really is no reason not to take a nose lascannon for 10 extra points, especially if you intend to hover and shoot things.

 

The multi-pods are pretty sweet weapons for the cost, being effectively D6-shot heavy bolters, but the Hellstrike Missiles are actually pretty solid to in my mind.  They lose a point of strength and AP from the lascannon like the missile launcher, but roll two dice and pick the highest for damage at any range.  I find these two shots tend to be more useful than the equivalent of ~3.5 heavy bolters.

 

A valkyrie with missiles and lascannon is a cool 150 points.

[Reviler]

That’s not how the missiles work now. It’s just one shot per turn. The 2d6 pick the highest represents the two missiles. They are not one use only anymore.

 

Very hit or miss, literally. Pods are much better for volume fire. The AT side should be kept on land based platforms. I think I agree on las cannon though, multi lasers are a poor choice.

[oldmanlee]

Valks are very playable this edition I ran a air cav list at a local torney the other month and won all five of my games (I tabled 4 of 5 games) in my three valks I ran I three special weapons teams two company commanders a infantry squad officer of the fleet and command squad

[Feral_80]

Yep Hellstrike missiles are terrible, definitely leave them at home.

 

I don't agree on swapping the multilaser (which is terrible) for a lascannon that realistically will only hit on 5+, unless perhaps the turn after you disembarked, when you might choose to hover. Valkyries are already a high-priority target, no need to make them even more juicy by putting more expensive and more dangerous weapons on them. Save those points to distribute your threat as much as possible. It's the same reason why it's hardly worth it to give them heavy bolter, although if you follow the rule of cool you should just do it (Apocalypse now).

[Reviler]

That’s not how the missiles work now. It’s just one shot per turn. The 2d6 pick the highest represents the two missiles. They are not one use only anymore.

 

Very hit or miss, literally. Pods are much better for volume fire. The AT side should be kept on land based platforms. I think I agree on las cannon though, multi lasers are a poor choice.

[Withershadow]

That’s not how the missiles work now. It’s just one shot per turn. The 2d6 pick the highest represents the two missiles. They are not one use only anymore.

Yes, I understand that.  I am saying a Valkyrie with 2 lascannon-equivalent shots (+40 points) is a pretty good alternative to the ML+2HB+2MP variant (+48).

 

And with the FAQ changing to Valkyrie drop rule to 20+", I expect people to hover them a lot more, so you don't have to roll for broken legs when disembarking.  At that point it's the same 4+ to hit anti-armor weapon as your land elements, but mobile.

Edited November 18, 2017 by Withershadow

[momerathe]

Yes, I understand that.  I am saying a Valkyrie with 2 lascannon-equivalent shots (+40 points) is a pretty good alternative to the ML+2HB+2MP variant (+48).

 

And with the FAQ changing to Valkyrie drop rule to 20+", I expect people to hover them a lot more, so you don't have to roll for broken legs when disembarking.  At that point it's the same 4+ to hit anti-armor weapon as your land elements, but mobile.

This is pretty much how I'm planning to use them.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Sit still and it's a 3+ to Hit IIRC?

[Withershadow]

No, the issue is you can no longer fly and drop troops without exposing them to the "if you roll a 1 you die" rule.  So even when moving and hovering, they are still hitting on 4+, which is as good as our tanks and sentinels and heavy weapon teams, etc.  So both load-outs are actually useful, either the 2 lascannon-esque shots, or going for dakka with 11-21 heavy bolter shots.  Given how expensive the Vendetta is after you add 6 lascannons (and the fact that it hasn't been updated for the new rules yet), this makes the lascannon/hellstrike variant pretty good AT, especially if you're going for a air cav list.  Since I usually will toss in a Vulture into my list if running a lot of planes, the AT load-out seems more attractive.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Withershadow

[momerathe]

How do people feel about the lascannon/hellstrike Vulture? I know everyone likes the buckets o' dice of the punishers, but I rarely lack anti-infantry firepower and I think the AT variant is pretty legit, what with the fact that you can still shoot at 4+ while retaining your -1 to hit and immunity to (most) assault. Or go into stationary hover and pretend that you're a las-predator.

 

Plus, it's another reason to use a great model

[Tirak]

I've tried it, it can do ok, but frankly i've had much more success after going with a Thunderbolt with 4 hellstrikes.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I need to kit my Thunderbotl out with those and go Character hunting. :P

[Withershadow]

Thunderbolts can’t transport a unit with 7th edition disembark rules. :P

[CoffeeGrunt]

I didn't say it could? And we were comparing it to the Vulture? I don't get your point.

[Withershadow]

I didn't catch the Vulture part, my bad.

 

I think the 40-shot gun on the Vulture is unique enough to give very serious consideration over other options.  If just after a flying anti-tank platform, there are tons of options.  Flyers can be taken as their own detachment, so you have the whole Imperium at your fingertips.  Although 6 skystrikes and a twin autocannon does sound pretty fun. 

 

If  staying within the Aeronautica, the Avenger brings a sweet gatling gun, 2 lascannons, and two other guns.  The aforementioned Thunderbolt is a straight monster with 2 lascannons, 4 autocannons, and 4 hellstrikes/6 skystrike missiles.  Sure, that's 150 points in weapons alone, but who's counting. :D

Edited November 20, 2017 by Withershadow

[duz_]

I think the Avenger is the better gunboat option for high T targets.

The Thunderbolt is 2nd in that regards but wins overall on looks. B)

[Mitchverr]

I think the Avenger is the better gunboat option for high T targets.

The Thunderbolt is 2nd in that regards but wins overall on looks.

 

Avenger is also a pig to build lol.

 

Avenger is better vs armoured targets(due the the cannon beating autocannons as AP -2 vs -1 but pays by losing 1 str), though the thunderbolt is better vs high T targets due to a higher payload at higher strength if you fully load them both out(8 avenger cannon, 2 lascannon, 2 autocannon or hellstrikes vs 8 autocannon, 2 lascannon 4 hellstrike).

 

Also the Tbolt can repair on a 6+. Really i think it comes down to personal preff between higher wound chance vs beating armour saves.