316 replies to this topic

[bluntblade]

The fluff raison d'etre I've come up with is Ork hordes, so twin-linked sounds sensible

[Grifftofer]

The fluff raison d'etre I've come up with is Ork hordes, so twin-linked sounds sensible

Well with 13 BS5, twin-linked, high strength, deflagrate shots it will be a terror for works to face off against. It will rip big holes in their units and even threaten their light vehicles too (Maybe not as much as a regular fire raptor, but even so).

[bluntblade]

And all those poor Army regiments. I assume it'll also toast tanks quite nicely

[Grifftofer]

Vehicles are a tougher proposition. It will have enough shots to threaten light vehicles (up to about a rhino) anything heavier and you won't necessarily do much to them due to needing 6s to damage them. It will have a reasonable chance at downing enemy fliers too as those don't really go above Armour 12.

[bluntblade]

Then again, real heavy armour is why you have bombers. I guess IHF's Destructor variant would also be better suited to tackling them.

Edited by bluntblade, 25 February 2018 - 07:46 PM.

[Grifftofer]

True. There is also the possibility that we can give it the wing mounted Lascannon option that the Storm Eagle has, so it can deal with heavier opponents.

[bluntblade]

I think that'd be a good idea, or maybe autocannon if there's value in that?

[Grifftofer]

Autocannon would suffer most of the same issues as the Volkite. Namely being medium strength weapons so being limited to only dealing with lower armour values. In the end, though, it's your choice.

[Hesh Kadesh]

It'sgood to be back

All Fire Raptors have access to 4x Hellstrike Missiles. Sure, they're ordnance, but the high number of shots, twin link + deflagrate rule means that the Snap Shot cost isn't as bad as you'd normally expect. I don't think there's need to dilute its identity with Kraken Penetrators or Sunfury Missiles.

[bluntblade]

Autocannon would suffer most of the same issues as the Volkite. Namely being medium strength weapons so being limited to only dealing with lower armour values. In the end, though, it's your choice.

Let's keep the las cannon then.

Now, missiles. What difference is there between tempest and hellstrike? Tempted to add Stormstrike as an option.

Edited by bluntblade, 25 February 2018 - 08:25 PM.

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

Autocannon would suffer most of the same issues as the Volkite. Namely being medium strength weapons so being limited to only dealing with lower armour values. In the end, though, it's your choice.

Let's keep the las cannon then.

Now, missiles. What difference is there between tempest and hellstrike?

 

Tempest Rockets = 60" S6 AP4 1 Shot Sunder (Reroll failed Armour Pen) One Use

Hellstrike Missile = 72" S8 AP2 1 Shot Sunder, One Use

 

Apparently I don't know jack about rules any more. The old ones were Ordnance, but you still get the reroll (technically, Ordnance is Roll Twice, choose the highest which allows a reroll to work as well) so it's functionally a straight upgrade.

 

Edit; Stormstrike Missiles trade Sunder for Concussive right? There are Electromagnetic Storm Charge Bombs which are 5" S3, Bombs, Haywire, and Concussive; but is there a need? If it's intended for Orks, they don't have too many monstrous creatures that couldn't be dealt with by a Hellstrike (non-biker Nobz getting Instagibbed), and the Hellstrike can also make a Mush of all but the largest Ork Battlefortress; and even then, flanking them gets them on their weaker side (AV14/13/11).

Edited by Hesh Kadesh, 25 February 2018 - 08:40 PM.

[bluntblade]

Think this is the rough shape of it so far:

Ash Phoenix Gunship
Alone among the Legions, the Ist continued to possess volkite weaponry in large numbers in the late Crusade era, thanks to the industrious forges of Akira and its satellites. The skyborne civilisation of Madrigal led them to favour gunships in their armoury both for the insertion of troops and as highly mobile gun-platforms, and as such these too were equipped with esoteric weapons. It is said that Icarion himself helped to design the Ash Phoenix, derived from the more common Fire Raptor. Armed with a twin-linked Volkite Demi-Culverin, it was conceived in the Lightning Bearers’ early campaigns against Ork empires and other xenos armies, proving lethal against both infantry hordes and armour columns.

BS4 Front12 Side12 Rear12 HP4

Wargear
1x Nose-Mounted Twin-Linked Volkite Demi-Culverin
2x Turret-Mounted Quad Volkite Culverins
4x Wing-Mounted Tempest Rockets

Special Rules
Deep Strike
Independent Turret Fire
Strafing Run

Options
The Ash Phoenix's Quad Volkite Culverins can be swapped out for Twin-Linked Multi-Meltas for free.
The Ash Phoenix can replace its Tempest Rockets for Twin Lascannons
The Ash Phoenix can replace its Tempest Rockets for Hellstrike Missiles

Edited by bluntblade, 25 February 2018 - 09:06 PM.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Out of interest, why has it suddenly turned into a Tank Hunter with Quad-Lascannons? I don't particularly like the inclusion of the Stormstrike missiles, either, and I feel that the Hellstrike doesn't need to be included baseline, although wouldn't have a problem personally seeing them added as an optional upgrade for the existant Tempest rockets.

[bluntblade]

I might've misread Grifft's remarks to be that just going all volkite would put it at something of a disadvantage.

[Grifftofer]

It is, but my suggestion was for the tempest rockets to have an upgrade to twin-lascannons in the same way as the Storm Eagle, rather than replacing the turret weapons.

Also it not being able to deal with every single target isn't so much a disadvantage as it is defining of its strengths.

Edited by Grifftofer, 25 February 2018 - 08:52 PM.

[bluntblade]

OK. So culverins remain and the lascannons become a wing-mount option?

[Grifftofer]

Yes. You'd have Tempest as a base, then Hellstrike and twin-Lascannons as upgrade options.

[bluntblade]

Gotcha. Is there any value in Stormstrike? Just the fluff seemed kinda cool to me.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I might've misread Grifft's remarks to be that just going all volkite would put it at something of a disadvantage.

 

Possibly, but that's why there are options available, such as 2 S8 AP2 Sunder Missiles; and as said potential for TL Lascannons as mentioned. Anything shy of a Land Raider is going to have to watch itself vs a BS5 S8 Reroll to damage.

 

Putting Quad Lascannons actually makes it much worse. It's 1 shot Ordnance, which means that it can only snap shot, and it penalises the ability to fire its main gun. 

 

The Tempest Rockets upgrading to Lascannons have a small issue is that I don't think that Fire Raptor kit comes with it, so in the aim of making it affordable, I'd allow the missiles to be upgraded to the Hellstrikes. The TL Lascannons are invariably better than the Hellstrike's, but cost a little more (+20 for hellstrikes, vs +40 for the lascannons on the storm eagle).

 

If we were going to do a model, to buy the kit from FW, you're looking at £110 for the Fire Raptor, and then £64 for an Incinerator, £13.50 for a set of Culverin.  I can't remember if the Fire Raptor kit comes with Lascannons, or if you could message FW with the ability to put in a spare SE Lascannon in it's place, but that's either another £14 per Lascannon Set, or you could buy another £105 Storm Eagle kit and have the SE with the rockets (weakest option IMHO).

 

Regarding the Stormstrike Missiles; from a fluff perspective, we have

 

Stormstrike missiles detonate with a thunderous boom that leaves those caught in the blast radius reeling and disoriented.

- Space Marines 7th Ed

 

That's quite literally it AFAI can tell. I'm not sure there's much "fluff" there to base it on. Apart from GW's naming department running out of things to call it other than [STORM NAME INCLUDING STORM]+[GENERIC STRIKE NAME INCLUDING STRIKE], I think Stormstrike is a pointless "throwback" that isn't going to be appreciated. Maybe throw a little into the fluff that testing had started with a downsized warhead from the Electromagnetic Storm Charges; although they hadn't resolved the complications of the downsize yet, they were confident that further improvements were due, and had named the project "Stormstrike". I think that's more fitting rather than simply "oh here's a 40k rule just because it has Storm in the name".

 

My 2c.

Edited by Hesh Kadesh, 25 February 2018 - 09:20 PM.

[Nomus Sardauk]

What about moving the Lascannons to the side turrets as an upgrade instead of replacing the Stormstrike missiles?

Edited by SanguiniusReborn, 25 February 2018 - 10:14 PM.

[bluntblade]

Potentially. Fire Raptor has autocannon as an option to replace its heavy bolters, doesn't it?

The thing that appealed to me with the Stormstrike was that they disorient enemies. But then again, that enemy will be on fire anyway.

Edited by bluntblade, 25 February 2018 - 10:26 PM.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Indeed. Perhaps a Free TL-Multimelta option swap if we absolutely NEED it to have Anti-Tank, but the Anti-Air is served with Tempest Rockets (S6 Sunder) and improved anti-tank coming in the form of Hellstrikes (S8 AP2 Sunder), and potentially Winged-mounted Lascannons. You've also got 5 TL S7 shots which can have a mess around with some light anti-armour like Rhino's, and I've seen Culverin's make a mess of things in a pinch.

 

Re the Stormstrike Missile, the concussive special rule is as follows;

 

Concussive

A model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon with this special rule is reduced to Initiative 1 until the end of the following Assault phase.

 

Unless you're targeting lone T5+ Monstrous Creatures with the intention to hit them in CC the following turn, there's little call for it; and even then, you might be better off taking Sunder Missiles, which have a wider applicability. Given that the airframe was intended to be an Ork Mauler, who lack Monstrous Creatures, the weapon seems to be a slight waste. I'm not sure what purpose Stormstrikes really serve.

Edited by Hesh Kadesh, 25 February 2018 - 10:51 PM.

[bluntblade]

Fair enough

[simison]

Has the Phoenix's arsenal been finalized?

[bluntblade]

I think we're in the final straight, with lascannons as an optional exchange for the culverins and hellstrike as an upgrade from the tempest rockets.