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Get Ready For Chapter Approved


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#751
chapter master 454

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Can I ask what was expected at this point? The discussion seems to of veered from discussing an issue of not fixing points to now expecting large sweeping changes.

 

The main issue with that discussion is that expecting large changes to EVERYONE then means you can't see what worked and what didn't as now everyone is finding out what works for them. What needs to happen is changes to a selection of armies, 2-3 at most. Otherwise we will be complaining about different armies the same we are now for various factions.

 

Yes there are things that could be improved however I ask which edition had nothing wrong and what mechanics have never been in someway "Wonky".

 

The formations concept from 7th is an awesome idea. Make you take units you may not normally take and give the units unique strength and identity. The issue: We are competitive players and seek the "best" formations. Sadly this did require more balance testing however it is a cool idea.

 

Detachments are a neat idea and to be honest a good revision to unit type grouping. While sadly lacking in depth and could do with more unique variants with a mix of different types (things like 2 heavy + 1 fast = artillery and spotters detachment that comes with it's own unique stratagem).

 

This is the first chapter approved and should be expected to not be the perfect answer. Nothing ever will. So lets just write this off as a 'rough start' and could be better but everything could be better.

 

Not sure but it does feel like this thread is going circles now...not really getting anywhere but don't let me stop yous.


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#752
Schlitzaf

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Inq. 3 accos. In a rhino/razor/raven.

Now lets you reserve 4 units.

Its very useful. Sorry you can't see that.


Still you've missed the point.

You said detachments take heafty points. No they don't.

You said they're fluffy. No they're not. They encourage non fluffy cherry picking.

Edit. Take 6. Take 9 primaris psykers.

Watch how you abuse the character targetting rules to make them unattackable.

Maybe even stick a culexes or two in there.

And spamming mortal wounds. You vastly underestimate how powerful that is...


Or you know just take the Units in reserve and still buy those dedicated. That is massive waste of 83 Points for a single command point. I’d rather take an assassin.

So 270 Points. Gulliman 670. Astropath 700. You now have 8 models. I hope you have some other way for staying power. And have sometning else to transport those pyskers.

Also woot you eat a 5 Man Tactical Squad a turn for 300 Points or more specifically 5 chaff models? Hurray. Smite Spam is only strong if you are unprepared for it. Being in 18 and only have 5++ and 4 wounds, means my a Marines return fire will murder those guys.

Of course you have gaurd in front. And well Gulliman. I am not undervaluing smite, I just see it for what it is. A glass cannon to murder super tanky Units.
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#753
Gentlemanloser

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Play GK.

You want to ds all your guys. Getting and extra 4 in reserves is well worth the 85 points. More if you take more accos.

The extra 1 cp is just gravy.

Your marine return fire does nothing. You can't shoot *any* of the primaris psykers.

Characters you know.

I think you need to play with these options in game before continuing to comment. You seem to misunderstand how they actually work.


And you're still not refuting the two points about detachments being expensive. They're not. Or fluffy. They're not.

Please try to answer those points.

Edited by Gentlemanloser, 15 December 2017 - 06:26 AM.

QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#754
Schlitzaf

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Removing post so I can respond when fully

Edited by Schlitzaf, 15 December 2017 - 08:46 AM.

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#755
Schlitzaf

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Gentle, the rule for characters just got changed but secondly;
A competitive list is....competitive? Like hurray? You gonna say Assback + Gulliman is also OP? Because a competitive list is competitive for a reason. However a supreme command detachment of just Primaris Pyskers without proper screens by their lonesomesks not scary. Because turns out T3, 5++ Sv models is exceptionally squishy.

If it wasn’t you’d Orks and their Weirdboyz, running around everywhere. At only 60 Points, and better toughness, and easier access to super smite. But you don’t sense they don’t have the proper screens to protect themselves from flankers. While maintaining forward momentum. Secondly, the cheapest detachments armies can take that can grant command Points beside supreme command is gonna in the 200-300 point range.

At is 10-15% of your army. If you think that is insignificant number, go play 2000 Point game and play 250 Points short. And ask yourself what those 250 Points could buy you. In Grey Knights that is 10 Strikes and twoish Heavies.

In Marines that is 2.5 5 Man MSU Double Special Tacticals Or A 6 Man Terminator Squad Or Double Assbacks or most Chapter Masters + most of an Auxillary Character.
Gaurd that is 3 Heavy Teams with Triple Lascannon or 3 Infantry Squads w/Lascannons and Double Company, 1-2 Leman Russ, 1 Russ and 3 Mortar Heavies
Sisters that is Celestine, or 3 5 Man Battle Sisters with Triple Storm and Double Cannoness Or 2 Excorcists
That is 2 20ish Man Boyz Squad for Orks or Warboss + Pain Boyz and Speciality Unit Or Two Speciality Units
That is Necron Overlord and 1 Ten Man Immortal, or 4isn Destroyers Or 3 Heavy Destroyers Or 20 Necron Warriors
A Daemon Prince and 10 Lesser Daemons or One heralds and 30 lesser Daemons. Or 3 Obliterators And 1 Auxillary Character Or 5 Chaos Marines Or 1 Greater Demon (Except Tzeentck)
Eldar that is 3 Gaurdian Squads, or 3 Avengers and 1 60ish Point Character, or 6 Wraithgaurd Or 1 Avater of Kaine or 1 Phoenix Lord and with a squad of aspects
Tyranids that is Hive + 30 Gaunts, or a Tervigon, or 24 Genestealers, or a Unit if Venomthropes and 30 Gaunts, or 3.5 Carnifexes, or 2 Mawlocks, or 1 Trygon + 16 Gaunts,

I could go on, but almost all those combinations of units I listed are considered significant point investments and require a list to be built around to use effectively. Gaurd and SOB stand out as being only lists who can make a Battlelion. But a frame of reference Ravens and LRC are in the 300ish and considered significant investment. I could throw another 50 Points in those above lists but the point remains.

250-300 Points is 10-15% of your list and a significant investment that requires building around. Supreme Command however is in the 100-200 range but you lose bodies and thus staying power.
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#756
Gentlemanloser

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You still miss the point.

And i think you mean brigade not battalion.

GK can easy make a battalion from 2 GM and 3 five man strike squads.

Detachments are not (bar the impossible for some armies brigade) expensive.

Inq plus three assassins. Cheap as chips and very effective.

Tempestor Prime with aquilla. Cheap effective way for armies that GW deemed don't require any way to regain cp, a very cheap way to gain regain cp.

Not fluffy in the slightest.

Nor is a detwchmrnt of 5 GMNDK. very potent. Cost effective due to how good the unit is. Retains BoP.

Totally unfluffy.

Detachments are not expensive and do not gravitate to fluffy over cherry picking the best.

Also Patrols can be made *very* cheaply. For 1cp. No where near the 200/300 points you claim.

Edited by Gentlemanloser, 16 December 2017 - 04:44 PM.

QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#757
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.....
Those three Assassins are 240-270 Points + 55 point Inquistor or 320 Total Points. Every unit combination listed above is 250-270 Points. It is meant to showcase what spending those “200-300” Points on allies causes you to give up.

Secondly if you consider 250 Points cheap play your next 2000 Points as 1750. You’ll realize that being down 12.5% of Points is quite significant

Patrols don’t give Command Points. I said “CP Granting Detachment beside Supreme Command” will average 200-300

Edited by Schlitzaf, 16 December 2017 - 04:47 PM.

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#758
Gentlemanloser

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Swap patrol for vanguard/outrider/spearhead.

We've anyway spoken about the potency of an 80 point vanguard that also grants 1cp.

Plus three culexes assassins are very powerful. Have you ever run them, or faced them?

And still for like the 5th time you studiously avoid addressing the original two points.

Detachments are not expensive.

Detachments are not inherently fluffy.

By now it would just be best if you agreed with both of these...

Edited by Gentlemanloser, 16 December 2017 - 05:55 PM.

QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#759
Brother Casman

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Alright folks, I think it’s probably time you took this particular disagreement to PMs.
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#760
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Necro Warning!

It was argued early on in this thread, and in other places, about the whole "Chapter Approved means I'm going to carry more books" and "Need a digital living points set". I hadn't seen it mentioned here or in those places - and it was just shown to me today, so I thought I'd pass it along to those who have this concern.

The Enhanced Edition of the digital Indices and Codices update their points costs with Chapter Approved and FAQ values.

Suppose this is in line with the folks who were asking for a digital library?
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#761
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Excellent news !
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#762
Shockmaster

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I am still a bit of a technophobe but news like this does tempt me towards the digital products long term.



#763
chapter master 454

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Necro Warning!

It was argued early on in this thread, and in other places, about the whole "Chapter Approved means I'm going to carry more books" and "Need a digital living points set". I hadn't seen it mentioned here or in those places - and it was just shown to me today, so I thought I'd pass it along to those who have this concern.

The Enhanced Edition of the digital Indices and Codices update their points costs with Chapter Approved and FAQ values.

Suppose this is in line with the folks who were asking for a digital library?

 

only the enhanced editions? Seems like a little bit of a nickle and dime tactic there.


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"The objective of playing a game is to win. The point of playing a game is to have fun. Never confuse the two"

What do you call an Imperial Guardsman with a laser sight? Twin-Linked!

 

 


#764
Mileposter

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Necro Warning!

It was argued early on in this thread, and in other places, about the whole "Chapter Approved means I'm going to carry more books" and "Need a digital living points set". I hadn't seen it mentioned here or in those places - and it was just shown to me today, so I thought I'd pass it along to those who have this concern.

The Enhanced Edition of the digital Indices and Codices update their points costs with Chapter Approved and FAQ values.

Suppose this is in line with the folks who were asking for a digital library?

 
only the enhanced editions? Seems like a little bit of a nickle and dime tactic there.


Technical limitation, there. The epub is just a digital copy of the pooks, like having a pdf - not really a decent way to go updating those because they aren't raw files. It'd be roughly the same amount of effort as reprinting book information (though obviously with less logistics after that fact). The Enhanced Editions are actual interactives, with a completely different setup and system. I didn't realize that either until I was able to hold one in my hand.

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#765
The Blood Raven

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hmmm. Were there no updates to the CSM  Hereticus Astartes Codex? I have no updates since the publish date of August 5.



#766
Lexington

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Technical limitation, there. The epub is just a digital copy of the pooks, like having a pdf - not really a decent way to go updating those because they aren't raw files.

 

ePubs are more or less just zipped-up set of assets and an HTML file, like a little webpage - I edit my own ePub Codexes to take out background and other non-gaming elements for easier use on my ancient iPad. It'd be an incredibly easy edit for them to make.


Edited by Lexington, 31 December 2017 - 06:02 PM.

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