DarkChaplain Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 I can't believe this particular topic is still going on, while Amazon just delayed my paperback preorder again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronin_cse Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 I would imagine the only real advantage might be in candidates' being more likely to have the fortitude to survive the transformation process. That's speaking in a literary sense, of course. In a scientific sense, growing up in a civilised society with proper nutrition and no exposure to environmental hazards is going to produce healthier organisms that will respond better to training. But if we start getting scientific about Space Marines, we're doomed. That's kind of my thinking as well, that candidates from a death world are more likely to make it all the way to becoming a full fledged space marine. That being the case though I imagine they lose far more candidates to death on a death world than they do to the transformation process so it would probably still be a net loss. This is likely part of the reason the Ultramarines were one of the biggest legions vs. the others. ALTHOUGH the chapters that recruit from death world also tend to have much harsher transformation processes. It could be argued that candidates from Macragge simply could not endure being Space Wolves for example and maybe recruits from Fenris ARE in fact the only ones able to survive. This probably wouldn't hold from for the Blood Angels though as they have many successor chapters that don't recruit from death worlds, although maybe that's why Blood Angels have an easier time with their curse than some others? Hmmmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealMcCagh Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 It seems to me like looking at the differences between ancient Sparta and it's contemporaries is a look at a professional military versus a reserve military, not a civilized vs death world. There isn't even a death world equivalent to compare the Spartans too. I guess I just don't see why Sparta was brought up, was the argument that a civilized world can field a professional military while the death world can't? It seems like if we wanted to see the effects of growing up on a deathworld vs a civilized world we should look at the Primarchs that came from there. They are the ones that actually grew up and were true products of their environment, wouldn't they embody the effects of nature/nurture better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagashnee Posted December 15, 2017 Share Posted December 15, 2017 I thought this and Dante were the Blood Angels books BL has been promising us since its inception. DoB is a great character study on the chapter and the bloodline. It has some well rounded and explored characters and does not overload on bolter porn. I feel it redeems the bad way this incident was portrayed in the core rulebook. My major complaint is that it could have used a little more page count to pursue certain arcs. And that it does not mention what in my view are key plot lines ( tho i may just have missed them). Such as, Sanguinius body, the chapters relic armory, the large number of orbital defences noted in shield of Baal. The relic armory was a particular blow to me, i was hoping that since this was a end of days scenario the novel would explore the chapters stores a bit more, this is a legion homeworld, stormbirds, fellblades, typhons etc. Even a name drop or two would be nice. If not a chapter where Dante authorises the deployment of what is left after 10k years. Sames goes for the Chapters of the Blood. It also truly surprised me as it was one of the few cases where marketing and storyline could meet and live happily side by side. I also truly wonder what happened to Sanguinius body, i feel it could have been mentioned at least. Was it taken off planet like the geneseed? Did they strap a cyclonic torpedo to it in case the fortress fell? Was a number of the sanguinary guard force to wait in the crypt while everyone else made their last charge? I thought the meeting between Guiliman and Dante was well written, and the acknowledgement from the former of Dantes legend and character was nicely done. I did not mind the whole paradise world idea, as i see it as a seedling for Dantes emotional turmoil in future novels, will he go against the will of his primarch? Or damn future generation to the hell he himself was forced to live. All in all, not all redeeming once the worse parts of the 8th ed rulebook timeline, but also just a great stand alone story, doubly so if someone has read Dante before hand. I only hope Guy Haley takes over Blood Angel writing in the HH series too, as he seem far better suited to it then the current author. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 I bought this and Dante based purely on recommendations in this thread and I am so glad I did, so thank you brothers! Went off 40k for a long while until this, and I'm glad to be back. I'm always a big fan of siege battles, but the development and detail put into the Successors and the Tyranids themselves is what really elevates this to the top tier of BL fiction. Guy Haley has to be the go to for the Sons of Sanguinius now, he's done what ADB did for the Night Lords, Dan Abnett for HH Wolves and Wraight for HH Scars. The depiction of Dante in particular is especially impressive, considering that loyalist Space Marines can sometimes come across as one-dimensional. What Guilliman said about terraforming made sense to me in the larger scheme of things. The Domitus Crusade and after is Imperium Secundus Secundus for Guilliman, at least until another loyalist Primarch turns up. After his meeting with the Emperor I think Guilliman has decided that the Imperium is his now, for the good of humanity, and he's going to remake it in his image. I'm not sure Dante is in a position to refuse, and he can appreciate the need for increased recruitment in this new era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 I’ve just finished reading this one and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I am surprised so many are getting hung up over what Guilliman said. From what I understood he was merely saying that if normal humans live in awful conditions they are more likely to give into the temptations of Chaos if promised with a better life. Hence him saying the worlds could be improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkChaplain Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Moreover, Dante himself considers that Baal could have been improved, and whether or not things truly are the best the way they are, right in his own novel set before it. This is a guy who's lived through things himself, appreciates the lessons but knows the problems with it both by virtue of having lived through recruitment etc, and been there to supervise it, and led his chapter for like a millennium. He's got the benefit of massive hindsight and a vastly different perspective due to seeing the galaxy changing along with its challenges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Dante has effectively been assigned “head administrator” which is very similar to Calgar who was also “put in charge”. It essentially puts old Marines out of the way allowing them to be ignored until the new Primaris take over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Since when in 40k has leadership meant you no longer take an active hand in fighting, other than the Imperial Guard? In this universe, it seems to mean you can pick the biggest, most impressive battles for yourself to heroically save the day. The Primarchs were also "head administrators" of their fleets, but they didn't just sit around on their ships all day, they made sure to plot a course for the biggest battles they could so they could kill the most guys at once. The Blood Angel codex even states that the Blood Angels still use Tactical Marines as the workhorses of their forces, with the Intercessors and other Primaris being saved for reserves. I get that some people don't like Primaris, but come on, at least try not to blatantly misinterpret stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Dante will have more autonomy...his domain is in Imperium Nihilus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mellow Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 I wonder if the Imperial Fists will get a new novel showing them being wiped out ... that hasn’t happened for ages! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 Is it worth reading Dante before this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted January 3, 2018 Share Posted January 3, 2018 You don't have to. But it is definitely worth it to read Dante. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 If anything read Dante because it's freaking excellent in addition to serving as a backdrop for Devastation of Baal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix Antipodes Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I had skipped Dante when it came out, relegated to my will get to it one day pile. Pulled it out when I read DoB was a sort of sequel to it. So glad I did. Not essential to read first but so good in setting up the character of the BAs and their leader. Now back to my second read through of DoB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Its annoying because the paperback for Dante isn't out until march but the paperback for DoB is out already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 I’ve just finished reading this one and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I am surprised so many are getting hung up over what Guilliman said. From what I understood he was merely saying that if normal humans live in awful conditions they are more likely to give into the temptations of Chaos if promised with a better life. Hence him saying the worlds could be improved. Then you don't get the complaint. The issue is not that Roboute wants to change those worlds. The issue is that it is made EXPLICITLY clear that Dante had this capability way before Roboute told him to do it. The issue is that to portray Guilliman as a humanitarian, Dante must have spend at least a good portion of his tenure either being too stupid to notice or deliberately chosen not to do anything about it. And I don't like harming Dante's character just to prop Roboute up. The Blood Angel codex even states that the Blood Angels still use Tactical Marines as the workhorses of their forces, with the Intercessors and other Primaris being saved for reserves. I get that some people don't like Primaris, but come on, at least try not to blatantly misinterpret stuff. Indeed, let's try to not blatantly misinterpret stuff: There is no way that can be true, when in the immediate follow up to battle of Baal there are just about three companies of Blood Angels left total. Even assuming that all of them are Tacticals, the Primaris still outnumber them over two to one. Unless Blood Angels are deliberately handicapping themselves, they cannot be the workhorses of their forces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 It is true. The BA codex also states that since the battle of Baal they have been making both new space marines and new primaris space marines to make up their numbers, contradicting the statement in DoB that they would only be making primaris from now on. That includes BA successors as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 It is true. The BA codex also states that since the battle of Baal they have been making both new space marines and new primaris space marines to make up their numbers, contradicting the statement in DoB that they would only be making primaris from now on. That includes BA successors as well. What I mean is that I am aware that the two major releases outright contradict one another. This does not precisely make the entire situation better: It means that either we ignore the codex or we ignore one of the biggest BL BA novels released within what, half a decade at this point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbienw Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 They can be reconciled. DoB ends just a few weeks after the the battle of baal is finished, 70 years into the 'Dark Imperium' era. The BA Codex goes past it another 45 years or so into the current point of the Dark Imperium era where the story is right now. So at some point after the novel ended I assume they realised it was not practical or possible to make just primaris marines and switched to making normal ones and primaris in tandem. Fairly easy to accept for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Canon boys, it's loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDarth151 Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 They can be reconciled. DoB ends just a few weeks after the the battle of baal is finished, 70 years into the 'Dark Imperium' era. The BA Codex goes past it another 45 years or so into the current point of the Dark Imperium era where the story is right now. So at some point after the novel ended I assume they realised it was not practical or possible to make just primaris marines and switched to making normal ones and primaris in tandem. Fairly easy to accept for me. It would have worked if we didn't have Dark Imperium novel that is pretty clear that Roboute plans to replace all of the current Space Marines with Primaris, and is not even really hiding it. Meh. At this point I will be satisfied if GW just brings some other Loyalist Primarchs back and we can finally stop having Roboute as the centre of the entire Imperial faction, because good god he can insufferable at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 As usual, its the novels that tell the better more consistent story. The Codex (aka Studio) fluff is...not driven by the same desires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogun Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 Robbienw, do you have the page number for the bit about normal marine recruitment? I'm probably looking in the wrong place, but I can't find it. Guilliman's intentions are actually a pretty vague. Felix Decimus believes it will happen, but he is a Primaris. Guilliman's sole reference to the existence of the Primaris is to mentally refer to them as 'Cawl's blasphemous creations', which is hardly a ringing endorsement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ascanius Posted January 4, 2018 Share Posted January 4, 2018 It would be very, very funny if Guilliman planned to give the Primaris the Thunder Warrior treatment eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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