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The Devastation of Baal- Discussion


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#26
Arkangilos

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Apparently Baal will no longer be a Deathworld. Seems like Guilliman is intent on reversing the culture of Astartes being recruited from Death Worlds in general. In fact this might mark a major shift in the culture of the Imperial itself...

**SPOILERS**

“He lifted his hand up to encompass three worlds. ‘These planets were hells. For generations we have recruited the strong over the weak, in the belief it makes our warriors better. I do not think this is so. Cruel men make cruel warriors make cruel lords. We need to be better. We need to rise over the need for violence and recognise other human qualities in our recruits. Your Chapter has ever understood this. If we do not, then we will fall prey to our worst excesses, the kind of thing that that represents.’ He pointed at Ka’Bandha’s name. ‘It has long been in your capability to transform these worlds. Baal Primus is dead, but you need not let your remaining people suffer unnecessarily. Will they fight any better for dwelling on a world that kills them? By sacrificing their children to the Emperor’s service, they have earned a better life. Once you have torn that blasphemy down, raise up the population of Baal Secundus. Teach them what we are fighting for. A line must be drawn between what is good and what is evil, for if the Great Enemy comes with offers of power to a wretch, what reason does he have to refuse hell if he dwells in it already?”

Excerpt From: Guy Haley. “The Devastation of Baal.” iBooks. ”

So the implication here is that for well over a millennium Dante had the capability to terraform the worlds of Baal system, but consciously chosen not to.

Yo, GW. Could you perhaps not portray my favourite chapter as either being immoral, or stupid, because you want to prop up Roboute? Thanks.
Well I mean, they did, and so do most other chapters. Chapters want hardy people, and the best survivors come out of hard places. Sanguinius was literally on the path to making Baal better (see the codices), and even he left it the same to go fight a bigger war.

Also we know the Imperium can terraform (it's been in stories before)

Edited by Arkangilos, 20 November 2017 - 11:59 PM.

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#27
b1soul

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This actually gives the BA a character arc so to speak.

The BA will likely follow through only partially. Guilliman isn't their primarch and isn't there to micromanage them, so this presents an interesting opportunity for character growth on a chapter-wide scale. Perhaps the BA will keep a part of Baal as an irradiated wasteland, perhaps those who choose to retain the old tribal culture will have the choice to do so. Interesting ways to go about this.

It also makes military sense as Imperium Nihilus needs its version of Cadia, not an irradiated, semi-feral craphole.

#28
bluntblade

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I thought the Imperium lost the tech? Except of course, for Cawl the Bottomless Toolbox.
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#29
caladancid

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There are some cool ideas, but it still smacks of Spiritual Liege-ness too much for my taste.

If the Lion returned first, would he go around telling all Astartes to get their robes on and hunt monsters in the forests?

“But we don’t have forests. We’re a desert world.”
“So terrascape and grow some, you imbeciles!”

If Russ came back first, would he go around telling all the Chapters to specifically ignore the Codex and stuff?

The Faction nuances and variances are one of the great aspects of 40k. This does not ease my worries of Homogenized Primaris in different colors.

 

I am not sure if people (not just you) who are saying this have actually read the book yet.  There is NO sign that the Blood Angels are becoming more like the UM, any more than they already are superhumans in power armor.  Do they have Primaris? Yes.  Do the UM have Primaris? Yes.  After that....quite different.

 

I encourage anyone who is saying how bad this idea is to actually READ the novel.  You may read summaries, or whatever, but I can assure you that summaries on a forum are not exactly the same as reading the novel by the person who does it for a living.

 

Dante and then this book have made the BA backstory and current 'flavor' so much more developed.  No chance at all the universe is becoming more homogenous.


Edited by caladancid, 21 November 2017 - 12:42 AM.

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#30
Triszin

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I thought the Imperium lost the tech? Except of course, for Cawl the Bottomless Toolbox.

I don't think they lost it, its rare for sure, but I think its well within the reach a first founding to obtain


banana


#31
TheRealMcCagh

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Honestly, I think people are seeing snippets from the novel and overreacting because the context is missing. Remember when MoM came out and it was all torches and pitchforks over calling Primarchs by their numbers? Than you actually read the novel and it's 'O, that actually makes a lot more sense.' The same thing happened with the little spoiler/leak regarding Guilliman just randomly showing up and saving the day, and Ka'Bandha helping the BA's by killing of Tyranids for them. This actually ties that in to a real story and gives you the context. In what world will GW actually kill off everything that makes the Blood Angels unique? Does anyone think for one second we won't have Death Company anymore because Cawl? Total shot in the dark here, but I'm guessing we get DC Primaris within a year or two.


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#32
b1soul

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I don't remember any pitchforks pointed at MoM. Most people praised it.

I think the only gripe was that it supposedly made the Emperor appear over-the-top callous in some scenes. The age old "If the Emp has such high IQ, why is his EQ phenomenally bad at times" issue. This wasn't an issue created by ADB of course...it could be traced back to early edition fluff.

#33
FirstSonofHorus

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In terms of eradicating the flaws with the geneseed, my feeling is they are setting it up so that it appears the flaws are gone. That makes it ore dramatic when they do manifest. Or worse. I can't think why they would limit the options of the Primaris.


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#34
Punishing Pete

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I agree turning the Imperium into Gullimans dream would destroy the feel of 40k. I’m not sure at all where GW are going with the setting. Ultramaring the Imperium makes perfect sense with a returned Gulliman but changes the setting beyond what we love.
Stagnation is what made 40k cool. The Baals and Blood Angels their secrets and craziness excite me. The dystopian feel of hopelessness. I just can’t see it working, though another returned loyalist Primarch would most certainly split the Imperium I find that hard to imagine logistically. The important point for GW, that worries me the most, the new setting demands that the setting advances. The scene is set for large scale changes. But I don’t see how you do that and keep the feel.
Maybe they could ‘do a Dallas’ and wake up finding the whole thing was a dream??
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#35
b1soul

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"Stagnation is what made 40k cool"

To some perhaps...

#36
Sete

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To most perhaps.
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#37
b1soul

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I think what makes 40K cool is super soldiers in big armour, space monsters and space daemons and space elves, a striking Gothic/Hellenic aesthetic with flourishes of other historical and sci-fi styles. This game is meant to continually hook kids and adolescents at a young age, to keep grooming new fans

I dunno if "stagnation" itself is what makes 40K cool to most current fans...though I think that's what a lot of old-timers grew up with

Edited by b1soul, 21 November 2017 - 09:06 AM.

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#38
Punishing Pete

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I agree I’m an old timer! Maybe I’m stuck in a time warp and need to move with the game that’s fine. I understood that something needed to be done with fantasy it needed shook up for a younger gen. It had run its course, I don’t buy into AoS but that’s ok because I get why it was done.
The 40k changes I can’t work out as I said but I’m willing to go with it see where it leads. Maybe I’m tainted by Gulliman hatred.
One thing that really excites me about it is the Eldar, that’s a storyline that needed advanced badly and it couldn’t be in better hands than with Gav. So I will gain something out of it all!

#39
b1soul

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We are getting old. From Ian Watson's Space Marine to Guy Haley's Dark Imperium and Devastation of Baal. Even four years ago, I would not have dreamed that GW would have the gall to bring back Guilliman.

40K has entered a new age, and I'm ready to embrace it if the likes of Haley, French, Wraight, ADB (maybe even Abnett) carry the torch.

The fanbase is divided over the new age, like how the Space Marines are divided over the new Primaris. How fitting ha

#40
Triszin

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In terms of eradicating the flaws with the geneseed, my feeling is they are setting it up so that it appears the flaws are gone. That makes it ore dramatic when they do manifest. Or worse. I can't think why they would limit the options of the Primaris.

Actually I've had this belief for a bit but altered.

 

The flaws will go away for a bit, but once they start occurring, they are going to be 1000% worse than they were before.

 

A black rage marine ya fits the current bill.

 

A black Rage Primaris marine.. Well he sprouts wings and becomes a mini sanguinius for that battle then he dies.


banana


#41
Sete

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Please no wings. He does not need to be a full blown vampire. Just let the thing manifest as it usually does.

No need to have Wulfen BA.
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#42
deathspectersgt7

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I hope the next book will deal with the Successors take on primaris . I just wonder what a newly installed Primaris Angel Sanguine is going to think or react upon meeting his new mates. I ordered the book and look forward to reading it but I do like reading what people think about it. Spoilers or not.


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#43
caladancid

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I hope the next book will deal with the Successors take on primaris . I just wonder what a newly installed Primaris Angel Sanguine is going to think or react upon meeting his new mates. I ordered the book and look forward to reading it but I do like reading what people think about it. Spoilers or not.


The characterizations of the Successors are fantastic. Not just BA clones, but very unique and focused on different aspects of what makes the BAs special.
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#44
Blood Angel Scout

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Could the primaris get the flaw once the BA start to make their own? Unless it's been reconned BA always needed Sanguinius's blood to trigger the geneseed process then could it be due to which source of Sanguinius genetic material has Cawl been using?

If it's from the original that Sanguinius was created from, before the scattering, then was the thirst evident in the BA marines before reaching Baal cause should be the same as what the pre-BA from the beginning of the Crusade were made from-is there a forgeworld HH book covering this yet? Or once meeting with the Angel-post possible genetic alteration via the warp scattering or else it's pre-programmed by the Emp to an extent, the sharing of blood throughout the legion, passing more of the flaw into later recruits and then the fact after his death, the genetic material is flooded by extremes of the primarch power and effectively stored and taken from the corpse to maintain recruiting hence the introduction of the black rage, then if using the new process with old ingredients, could see primaris with both flaws after couple of recruitment cycles or if the current geneseed stock left from Baal is used to make new primaris, might see it sooner?

Now, I know this could be a wild theory or pointless if the source of Cawl's stocks have been detailed that I'm unaware of, not yet had a copy of the GS work myself, figure it could be an in-verse plausible explanation.

Edit as nearly missed making a point!

Edited by Blood Angel Scout, 21 November 2017 - 05:35 PM.

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#45
DarkChaplain

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I hope the next book will deal with the Successors take on primaris . I just wonder what a newly installed Primaris Angel Sanguine is going to think or react upon meeting his new mates. I ordered the book and look forward to reading it but I do like reading what people think about it. Spoilers or not.

 

Well, I believe they confirmed another Andy Smillie Flesh Tearers novel at the weekender (though for some reason he wasn't specifically invited to it, as per a tweet). So unless he is going to be writing a full Amit novel for a change, rather than short novel or novella, chances are it may be a Space Marine Conquests book post-Devastation of Baal.



#46
mc warhammer

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were the primaris educated/indoctrinated in their parent legion's culture as well before being released? or are they all pretty much greyshields with a natural inclination due to their geneseed



#47
Plaguecaster

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The interreaction between a Primaris marine and his non Primaris brothers would actually be pretty damn interesting to read about especially concerning the Black rage, how would they react when their brothers start going crazy like they do
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#48
MrDarth151

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There are some cool ideas, but it still smacks of Spiritual Liege-ness too much for my taste.

If the Lion returned first, would he go around telling all Astartes to get their robes on and hunt monsters in the forests?

“But we don’t have forests. We’re a desert world.”
“So terrascape and grow some, you imbeciles!”

If Russ came back first, would he go around telling all the Chapters to specifically ignore the Codex and stuff?

The Faction nuances and variances are one of the great aspects of 40k. This does not ease my worries of Homogenized Primaris in different colors.

 

I am not sure if people (not just you) who are saying this have actually read the book yet.  There is NO sign that the Blood Angels are becoming more like the UM, any more than they already are superhumans in power armor.  Do they have Primaris? Yes.  Do the UM have Primaris? Yes.  After that....quite different.

 

I encourage anyone who is saying how bad this idea is to actually READ the novel.  You may read summaries, or whatever, but I can assure you that summaries on a forum are not exactly the same as reading the novel by the person who does it for a living.

 

Dante and then this book have made the BA backstory and current 'flavor' so much more developed.  No chance at all the universe is becoming more homogenous.

 

 

The issue is not that the Blood Angels became more like Ultramarines in this novel, the issue is how fundamentally defining the flaws are for their cultural aspects.

 

I like Blood Angels. I don't like the idea of the Blood Angels being sanitised to have one of their defining characteristics removed. Without the Rage and the Thirst, Blood Angels are narratively dimished, and yes, the universe is becoming more homogenous.

 

I was actually defending the concept of Primaris marines, but if this is the way it's going to go, I'm going to have to side with the critics of the concept.



#49
b1soul

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The issue is not that the Blood Angels became more like Ultramarines in this novel, the issue is how fundamentally defining the flaws are for their cultural aspects.
 


Gabriel Seth makes this exact argument to Dante, who plans to rebuild the BA chapter with Primaris.

Some of the Blood will embrace Primaris and Guilliman's reforms...others will not (including the Flesh Tearers).

#50
LordValrak

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The issue is not that the Blood Angels became more like Ultramarines in this novel, the issue is how fundamentally defining the flaws are for their cultural aspects.
 


Gabriel Seth makes this exact argument to Dante, who plans to rebuild the BA chapter with Primaris.

Some of the Blood will embrace Primaris and Guilliman's reforms...others will not (including the Flesh Tearers).

 

 

 

I cannot wait for the next novel from Andy, let me see Seth with these Primaris :P


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