Character duels: Who beats whom (Mathammer)

[Corswain]

I actually forgot that Abaddon doesn’t have EW. That’s......odd.

[SixOfOne]

I actually forgot that Abaddon doesn’t have EW. That’s......odd.

 

It is indeed. He probably should have it really. I can understand why they didn't give it to him originally, but now that 2 legions can get EW on generic characters it probably should be given to him.

[mechadryad]

 

I actually forgot that Abaddon doesn’t have EW. That’s......odd.

 

It is indeed. He probably should have it really. I can understand why they didn't give it to him originally, but now that 2 legions can get EW on generic characters it probably should be given to him.

 

 

I know Salamanders can but who's the second?

 

Relics don't count

[bluntblade]

Throw a judicious "almost" in and you basically have the duel aboard the Eternal Crusader.

[SixOfOne]

 

 

I actually forgot that Abaddon doesn’t have EW. That’s......odd.

 

It is indeed. He probably should have it really. I can understand why they didn't give it to him originally, but now that 2 legions can get EW on generic characters it probably should be given to him.

 

 

I know Salamanders can but who's the second?

 

Relics don't count

 

 

If relics don't count then just Salamanders. The point still remains. Also, I apologise for the slow updates. Uni has been busy lately and I haven't had as much free time.

[marshal seanisi]

Throw a judicious "almost" in and you basically have the duel aboard the Eternal Crusader.

Which battle are you referring too?

[Reyner]

 Put in here in a spoiler just in case:

Black Legion

[bluntblade]

Twas deliberately vague

[SixOfOne]

Loken

 

Loken vs The Nemean Reaver:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1 time and causing 0.5 wounds after saves.

 

The Nemean Reaver strikes back with 3 attacks, hitting 1.98 times, wounding 1.3068 times and causing 0.6534 wounds after saves.

 

The Nemean Reaver wins.

 

Loken vs Eidolon

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Eidolon strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 3.3 times, wounding 2.739 times and causing 1.369 wounds after saves

 

Eidolon wins easily in 1(2) rounds.

 

Loken vs Erasmus Golg:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Golg strikes back with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Golg wins via ID in the 2nd (4th) round.

 

Loken vs Kyr Vahlen:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Kyr Vahlen strikes with 4(5) attacks, hitting 2 (0.5) times, wounding 1.32 (0.415) times, causing 0.66 (0.2075) wounds after saves.

 

Kyr Vahlen wins thanks to the servo arm.

 

Loken vs Sigismund:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Sigismund strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 3.088 times, wounding 2.5637 times and causing 1.9227 wounds after saves.

 

Sigismund wins in the 1st round of combat.

 

Loken vs Pollux:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.4356 wounds after saves.

 

Pollux strikes back with 3 attacks, hitting 1.75 times, wounding 1.4525 times, causing 0.72625 wounds after saves.

 

Pollux wins in round 2.

 

Loken vs Sevatar:

 

Both characters strike simultaneously. Sevatar strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 3.3 times, wounding 2.178 (0.561 of these rend) times and causing 1.089 wounds after saves. 

 

Loken strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Sevatar wins easily in 3(4) rounds thanks to Loken only having a 3+ armour save.

 

Loken vs Autek Mor:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1 time and causing 0.5 wounds after saves.

 

Autek Mor strikes with 3 (4) attacks, hitting 1.75 (0.585) times, wounding 1.6975 (0.567) times and causing 0.84875 (0.2835) wounds after saves.

 

Autek Mor wins easily in 3(4) rounds.

 

Loken vs Khârn:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Khârn strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.64 times, wounding 1.7424 times, causing 0.8712 wounds after saves.

 

This is tricky. If you count Loken's 'back from the dead' ability as giving him an additional wound then Loken wins in round 5 as he strikes before Khârn. If not, then Khârn wins in round 4.

 

Loken vs Typhon:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Typhon strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 1.65 times and causing 0.825 wounds after saves.

 

In the same way as Khârn, if you count Loken's 'back from the dead' ability as giving him an additional wound then Loken wins in round 5 as he strikes before Typhon. If not, then Typhon wins in round 4.

 

Loken vs Abaddon:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Abaddon strikes back with 4 attacks, he hits 3.3 times, wounds 2.739 times and causes 1.3695 wounds after saves.  

 

Abaddon wins easily in 1(2) rounds.

 

Loken vs Hol Beloth:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times and causing 1.035 wounds after saves.

 

Hol Beloth wins in 1(2) rounds.

 

Loken vs Nomus Rhy'tan:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus (Round 1) strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 2.25 times, wounding 1.8675 times and causing 0.93375 wounds after saves.

 

Nomus strikes first with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Similar to Typhon and Khârn, Loken loses without his 'back from the dead ability' but wins if you count it as an additional wound.

 

Loken vs Dynat:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Dynat strikes with 3 attacks, hitting 1.5 times, wounding 1.245 times, causing 0.6225 wounds after saves.

 

Dynat wins in round 2 thanks to ID.

 

Loken vs Hvarl:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.32 times and causing 0.66 wounds after saves.

 

Hvarl strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2.33 times, wounding 2.2067 times, causing 1.10338 wounds after saves.

 

Hvarl wins easily in 3 (4) rounds.

 

Loken vs Haar:

 

Loken strikes first with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1 time and causing 0.5 wounds after saves.

 

Haar (Round 1) strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.425 times, causing 1.2125 wounds after saves.

 

Haar (Round 2 onwards) strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2.5 times, wounding 2.075 times, causing 1.0375 wounds after saves.

 

Haar wins in round 1.

 

Loken vs Jenetia Krole:

 

Both characters strike simultaneously. Krole strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2.33 times (0.7689 ID), wounding 1.79923 (0.7689 ID) times, causing 0.89962 (0.3845 ID) wounds after saves.

 

Loken strikes with 4 attacks, hitting 2 times, wounding 1.66 times and causing 0.83 wounds after saves.

 

Krole wins in round 3, but is actually a more difficult fight for Krole as both characters are I6.

 

TL:DR- Loken is one of the worst challengers on this list. He's much better suited to making use of his high initiative and sweeping squads.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Still not using precog or calculating murderous strike in drawn out combats?

Edited December 8, 2017 by SkimaskMohawk

[SixOfOne]

Still not using precog or calculating murderous strike in drawn out combats?

 

I've already said that I'm not factoring in precog, although I have done the damage calculations for it in an earlier post. There's also not really much point in factoring in Murderous Strike as in most cases it won't come into play until round 6, by which time the duel would have already ended. Murderous Strike is a nice rule, but it's not something that should be ever be relied upon to win fights. It's simply nice when it triggers. It's much better on generic Praetors as they can get 6 attacks base. However, even then the chance of it triggering is 0.25 against T4 4++ so still won't come into play.

[Zeratil]

I actually forgot that Abaddon doesn’t have EW. That’s......odd.

I have to admit that Sigismund getting Eternal Warrior when almost no other non-primarch character does really, really irritates me. Sigismund should be the mathematically best duelist I think, but not by the margin he is over say Sev, who he's supposed to have duelled for three days(?)

[b1soul]

Sigismund holds back a lot...whereas I think it would harder to claim that Sev does. So Sig's stats might be an indication of his supremacy when he goes all out.

 

Somewhere it's said that when Sig let's go...he is a force of nature.

[SixOfOne]

Sigismund holds back a lot...whereas I think it would harder to claim that Sev does. So Sig's stats might be an indication of his supremacy when he goes all out.

 

Somewhere it's said that when Sig let's go...he is a force of nature.

 

Sev plays with his targets. At least that's the impression that I got from reading the stories in which he fights. He's only truly serious when fighting through a Dark Angel ship and we only see the beginning and aftermath of that.

[b1soul]

We don't see Sev fight that often, but when we do, he doesn't play (I do not recall any playing)

 

He kills Alajos with help from Sheng...no playing

 

He kills DA aboard the Invincible Reason...no playing

 

Any other scenes actually showing (not just mentioning) Sev in action?

 

Anyway...Sev slings some darkly humourous barbs before fights, but during fights, he seems utterly intent on murdering his opponents.

 

Sigismund is noted to have qualms about killing fellow Astartes, but somewhat gets over it in French's Templar and in French's PoD, I think Sig has no misgivings. By the Siege, he is a Traitor-hating force of nature.

[SixOfOne]

We don't see Sev fight that often, but when we do, he doesn't play (I do not recall any playing)

 

He kills Alajos with help from Sheng...no playing

 

He kills DA aboard the Invincible Reason...no playing

 

Any other scenes actually showing (not just mentioning) Sev in action?

 

Anyway...Sev slings some darkly humourous barbs before fights, but during fights, he seems utterly intent on murdering his opponents.

 

Sigismund is noted to have qualms about killing fellow Astartes, but somewhat gets over it in French's Templar and in French's PoD, I think Sig has no misgivings. By the Siege, he is a Traitor-hating force of nature.

 

Sev killing DA is the situation I was referring to. I never got the impression that he was trying particularly hard when fighting Alajos. Especially since he had the advantage in numbers, but then again the fight isn't really described too much and is sort of up to interpretation. I suppose I'm also basing part of it off the fact that, at least in my mind, the NL 'play with their food'. The difference between Sev and Sig is that Sig is dolorous. Sig will always go for the killing blow as quickly as possible. This is just my view of the characters though. There's nothing wrong with alternate character interpretations.

[bluntblade]

Sev was happy to let Sheng take a hit rather than risk anything, was my reading. Tactical cowardice is, by his own admission, held in high esteem among the VIII Legion.

[Zeratil]

We don't see Sev fight that often, but when we do, he doesn't play (I do not recall any playing)

 

He kills Alajos with help from Sheng...no playing

 

He kills DA aboard the Invincible Reason...no playing

 

Any other scenes actually showing (not just mentioning) Sev in action?

 

Anyway...Sev slings some darkly humourous barbs before fights, but during fights, he seems utterly intent on murdering his opponents.

 

Sigismund is noted to have qualms about killing fellow Astartes, but somewhat gets over it in French's Templar and in French's PoD, I think Sig has no misgivings. By the Siege, he is a Traitor-hating force of nature.

 

 

  But surely this should be reflected in his offensive capability (which it is), not the defensive ability of EW. Sig is the best close combat fighter of the LA, in the lore and the rules. I just think that the distance is far too great between Sig and the others by virtue of EW alone. It means that basically no-one has a hope against him even  if he spends two rounds tripping over his own sword, rather than it being an intense fight that Sig has the advantage in. Sure he's the best but he's not just cutting down champions of the legions in one blow until his armour seizes up from all the body parts he's wading through...

 

  I have a mate who plays Fists and Siggy is just not very fun to fight after a while for either of us. You've got no hope against him in CC so he just eats an entire army worth of firepower until he's dead. If you do get into CC with him you'd never accept a challenge with anything except a Primarch or equivalent because of all the bonuses he gets. You'll accept one of your characters not fighting and try and mob him as best you can. That's not really much fun for either player, I want characters to have awesome duels but there comes a point when it's just not worth feeding Siggy all your characters. Khârn, Sev etc. are different. Sure you're praetor will probably end up as catfood but there's still hope and you might knock a wound off or two before he kills you. Sig should be, on average, the best of the LA but the gulf is too big and his rules are badly designed. Partly his own rules, partly some of 7th ed itself.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Zeratil

[rendingon1+]

True. That's why you never answear a challenge from someone who will just murder you with no effort. Steps to be taken:

1. Kill it from afar

2. If unable soften the character and, more importanat the unit that escorts him.

3. Charge, deny the challange, drown him in Ap2 attacks. Without challenges Sigismund is no better than a praetor (although he wounds on 2+ on I and has eternal warrior). I've also noticed that  he's more important than a duelist beause of his special rules (+1I on charge for the unit, rerolling charge range, fearless) which buffs accompanying unit drastically. Never let him charge you.

 

I've seen IF player getting furious after his templar brethren with sigismund was culled by plasma squads, vindicators or by sheer amount of bolter fire repeatedly. Remember that some people who field special characters featuring in fluff are emotionally attached to them and will do silly things to preserve their favourite or to prove that "he's the best" which translates to weird tactical decisions. Plot armour does not protect you on the tabletop. Observe, adapt and punish!

Edited December 11, 2017 by rendingon1+

[dicebod]

 

You'll accept one of your characters not fighting and try and mob him as best you can. That's not really much fun for either player, I want characters to have awesome duels but there comes a point when it's just not worth feeding Siggy all your characters. Khârn, Sev etc. are different. Sure you're praetor will probably end up as catfood but there's still hope and you might knock a wound off or two before he kills you. Sig should be, on average, the best of the LA but the gulf is too big and his rules are badly designed. Partly his own rules, partly some of 7th ed itself.

 

Exactly.  I also play VII and Sigismund often finds a place in my lists, but he's kinda handicapped in the way that as soon as you play against an opponent once with him, they very quickly figure out that he can be easily countered by just not accepting the challenge.  Which, as you say, is not fun for anyone involved.  

[SixOfOne]

It's important to note that the characters outside of book 1 who have EW (Not including Primarchs) are characters who have either been through a lot (The Nemean Reaver) and/or survive for a long time after the heresy and/or have been around for a long time. EW is nowhere near something that is handed out to every special character ever. It makes for an important distinction between characters. I would still argue that Abaddon should have EW. The only case outside of this is Salamanders Praetors. However, in this situation I've always viewed it as the Mantle being incredibly resilient. Sigismund should have EW from both a fluff and crunch perspective. His whole thing is duels and outside of this he is pretty much a generic Praetor. You shouldn't really complain about him easily killing your characters in duels, you have to account for him and play around him. As Rendington said, a plasma support squad will easily remove Sigismund and retinue.

[Zeratil]

Oh yeah, I'm not saying Sigismund is impossible to deal with, quite the opposite. The problem with him is that he's too good in duels for an opponent to let him anywhere near one so you're 'forced' to deal with him in other ways. Meaning he never gets to fight, which isn't really fun for anyone. Like dicebod says my mate's Sigismund hardly ever makes it combat as no opponent will let him. Whereas I often get Khârn there, sure he's a threat but not as overwhelming a one. I don't really mind which approach is taken but either a bunch of LA characters should get EW (Sig, Sev, Abaddon, Erebus, Ahriman other surviving heroes etc.) or none of them should. For the record I'm equally not fond of the generic ways of getting EW for Sallys and SoH - it's such a no-brainer choice.


*Of course you're not forced but unlike most other beatsticks it's not even worth the attempt unless you just want to throw a massive advantage to your opponent. Nothing wrong with that of course especially in narrative games but it'll get old.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I think the important thing to remember vis a vis the duel between sev and sigi and how their stats don't reflect them being even, is that it was an honour duel and not one to the death. Stats wise, it'd be Weapon Skill and Attacks that apply more than anything else; things like Dirty Fighter and the Instant Death and Invul Reroll parts of Dolorous Fighter wouldn't apply, since they weren't aiming to kill each other. In the end its the same amount of attacks, the same weapon skill, and the same amount of rerolls to hit (precog is pretty much the given reason for sevatar being so good), which makes an honour duel between them incredibly even stats wise. 

[b1soul]

Some very valid point being raised all around...

 

I would just add that EW seems to be a reflection of the hand of destiny, characters who are destined to survive the Heresy and make an even greater name for themselves afterwards

 

I do agree that Abaddon of all people should have EW

 

Also, it kinda fits Sig as we know (based on ADB's Black Legion) that he lives to 1,100 plus years old

 

@SkimaskMohawk

 

Great point...makes a lot of sense. Though Dirty Fighter is how Sev ends the duel

Edited December 13, 2017 by b1soul

[SixOfOne]

FW are generally pretty good when translating fluff to crunch. The best fighters all have WS7, Khârn is WS8 in a challenge but shines when he gets the charge . Sig is the best 1v1 fighter in all the legions, but isn't an outstanding general. It even applies to the Primarchs (Who are done slightly differently- special rules+buffs etc then stats dependent on the rules. Explaining why Pert is WS8 but Guilliman and Corax are WS7). Leman Russ is really the only exception to this, as Magnus is fine but just needs to cost at least 50 points more.