Theory about women serving in Space Marine Chapters

[DogWelder]

First of all this is not about female Space Marines but a bit of theorizing about regular mortal women serving in the Chapter itself. 

 

I've noticed in a vast majority of Space Marine books that most Astartes ship captains and fighter pilots are female, both in the Heresy and 40k era. Of course this is probably the writers trying to insert female characters in SM books where they can but I figure there could be a very good in-universe explanation to it as well.

 

I'd say that whenever a Chapter collects its tithe in human children from a planet, the males are immediately put into aspirant training and should they wash out, become Chapter serfs themselves. However, the female children are trained from the start in operating the Chapter's naval vessels (serving as captains, radar and weapons officers, managing the ship's inventory etc.)

 

 

[M@verik115]

I think the reason you get so many women around Space Marines is the sexy sweaty muscles. 
Wasn't it Mersadie or Eupharti who was totally perving over Garviel Loken? 

[Corswain]

That does make a lot of sense. I think they would probably go a bit broader with their training though and serve in combat roles like the mortal ship defence forces or support roles in Astartes campaigns. Same as the Imperial Guard really.

[Roderikum]

Indeed! Great idea!

[DogWelder]

That does make a lot of sense. I think they would probably go a bit broader with their training though and serve in combat roles like the mortal ship defence forces or support roles in Astartes campaigns. Same as the Imperial Guard really.

 

Though I think it would make sense for them to be shunted towards naval roles primarily. Kind of like how women have a much higher preference for the Navy and Air Forces in real life militaries.

[Leonaides]

Is that more a function of more roles available for historically longer for women in air and navy over army though. Its only comparatively recently that women have been able to go into frontline units, while air and navy frontlines are a bit further away...

[Leif Bearclaw]

Vast Majority? Care to throw out a few examples? Aside from the Captain, Sarrin(?) in Betrayer, I can't think of any off the top of my head. Fighter Pilots? Aren't they usually Marines too (especially in 40k works)? Though tbh I struggle to think of many books where Chapter Serfs feature heavily, and most of those that do usually are centred around the 'Chapter Serf as failed aspirant' angle (Gildar Rift and Rynn's World spring to mind). The serf population that actually had the most women in I can remember are the SW kaerls from the Battle for the Fang, Blood of Asaheim etc. And that seemed to be more because they're an actual community of Fenrisians (just not a Barbarian tribe), rather than the more monastic approach most Chapters seem to follow for both Marines and Serfs (and so a male only environment would be in keeping with the overall aesthetic, just like you wouldn't expect to find men scrubbing the toilets in a Sororitas convent). They also didn't seem to have any major biases in their service branches.

 

Has it ever been stated that Chapters are tithing girls as well as boys? IIRC It's usually portrayed as taking recruits for aspirant testing. Why would they take girls too? Even if boys wash out of Astartes training, they'll be what, 16 at the eldest? That's more than enough time to train them into specialists for Chapter Serf roles.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

There's also a supply of female personnel from serf offspring. Many chapters have serf cultures that allow families and procreation, and they are inevitably going to have both daughters and sons.

[DogWelder]

Vast Majority? Care to throw out a few examples? Aside from the Captain, Sarrin(?) in Betrayer, I can't think of any off the top of my head. Fighter Pilots? Aren't they usually Marines too (especially in 40k works)? Though tbh I struggle to think of many books where Chapter Serfs feature heavily, and most of those that do usually are centred around the 'Chapter Serf as failed aspirant' angle (Gildar Rift and Rynn's World spring to mind). The serf population that actually had the most women in I can remember are the SW kaerls from the Battle for the Fang, Blood of Asaheim etc. And that seemed to be more because they're an actual community of Fenrisians (just not a Barbarian tribe), rather than the more monastic approach most Chapters seem to follow for both Marines and Serfs (and so a male only environment would be in keeping with the overall aesthetic, just like you wouldn't expect to find men scrubbing the toilets in a Sororitas convent). They also didn't seem to have any major biases in their service branches.

 

Has it ever been stated that Chapters are tithing girls as well as boys? IIRC It's usually portrayed as taking recruits for aspirant testing. Why would they take girls too? Even if boys wash out of Astartes training, they'll be what, 16 at the eldest? That's more than enough time to train them into specialists for Chapter Serf roles.

 

Taye was the commander for the fighter squadrons of the Night Lords Legion flagship in 'Prince of Crows'.

 

The Imperium Secundus arc books (The Purge, Deathfire, Ruinstorm etc.) all had female captains for the Ultramarine legion ships bar the Macragge's honour.

 

In the Dark Angel's audio drama (Balthazar's Ascension), the Dark Angels 5th Company Strike Cruiser had a shipmistress.

 

Both Battle-Barges of the Scythes of the Emperor had shipmistresses and their Master of fleet was also female in their book.

 

There are a lot more examples but these are the ones off the top of my head.

Edited November 24, 2017 by DogWelder

[Pulse]

Thought that was always the case, it has been depicted quite often...  females can serve a chapter in some capacity just not as Astartes.

[NiceGuyAdi]

Just to throw this off-tangent, I wonder how long it will be before GW are writing female Astartes into the general fluff?

 

Given the vast majority of a Space Marine’s advantage over a Guardsman, even a professional one, is down to genetic engineering, it’s hard to believe that females couldn’t meet the physical standard needed.

 

Even if they did end up looking like stereotypical Cold War era Hungarian shot putters.

[DogWelder]

Just to throw this off-tangent, I wonder how long it will be before GW are writing female Astartes into the general fluff?

 

Given the vast majority of a Space Marine’s advantage over a Guardsman, even a professional one, is down to genetic engineering, it’s hard to believe that females couldn’t meet the physical standard needed.

 

Even if they did end up looking like stereotypical Cold War era Hungarian shot putters.

 

I don't think they would. Part of the Astartes' identity has always been them being all-male so I don't think they'd change something so long established. 

 

All I'll say on that subject since I think that everything regarding female Astartes has already been said a hundred times over by now :P

[Frater Cornelius]

Please, let's not make it about female Astartes. OP did not want it and this topic will only lead to the closing of this thread and won't lead anywhere to begin with.

 

As for women serving, I believe the middle ages are a rather solid example. Women can perform a plethora of jobs as part of a war effort. Seeing as frontline combat is less suited for them, a lot of other tasks like food, clothes, nursing and so forth fell to them. This goes in line with female serfs being pilots, captains and so forth.

Also, let's also mention the obvious. You will need new serfs and might not be able to get more if you are on a Crusade. If there are couples among the serfs and the Chapter permits it, you get more serfs. Really depends on the Chapter. Sallies and Ultra might say yes whereas Templars would probably lose it.

[DogWelder]

Please, let's not make it about female Astartes. OP did not want it and this topic will only lead to the closing of this thread and won't lead anywhere to begin with.

 

As for women serving, I believe the middle ages are a rather solid example. Women can perform a plethora of jobs as part of a war effort. Seeing as frontline combat is less suited for them, a lot of other tasks like food, clothes, nursing and so forth fell to them. This goes in line with female serfs being pilots, captains and so forth.

Also, let's also mention the obvious. You will need new serfs and might not be able to get more if you are on a Crusade. If there are couples among the serfs and the Chapter permits it, you get more serfs. Really depends on the Chapter. Sallies and Ultra might say yes whereas Templars would probably lose it.

 

Why so? We got a glimpse into the lives of the humans serving the Black Templars in 'Eternal Crusader'. They're apparently divided into two castes, one religious and one military with the military caste having disdain for the religious ones. Each has a representative at the council meetings of the Black Templar command staff whenever Helbrecht calls them.

 

Other than that, I didn't see strict rules or guidelines governing pairings or the sort.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Militarily women are at their best where they can use their capable brains, and aren't hampered by their poor upper body strength. Tech jobs, Pilots, Navigators, Computer operators, that sort of thing. It makes sense that star ships would have women crewing them, and Marines would make use of them wherever they were capable of serving.

[jeffersonian000]

40k has stated that most ship crews never leave their ships, having been born, raised, served, and died on the same vessel. This implies that families are thing. The high occurrence of females in command roles on Imperial vessels might have to due with merit and specializations. Men might be fodder for tithing, leaving women in a matriarchal hierarchy within the navy.

 

SJ

[Frater Cornelius]

Space Marine worlds are freed from the tithing requirements.

 

@ DogWelder - The Templar thing was an assumption. I know rather little about their conduct when it comes to serfs.

[Marshal Rohr]

Why is this even a question if not to bait a female marine or women in combat discussion?

[Pulse]

In before thread locked.

 

In conclusion: Yes women can serve a chapter, as anything other than an Astartes, as has been documented many times.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Pulse

[DogWelder]

0.0 I didn't really intend for the thread to be bait for those kinds of arguments. Just wanted to put out a theory of mine that I gathered from the books.

[Dosjetka]

The thread won't get locked if people follow both the forum rules and the thread guidelines laid down by the OP. It's pretty clear that there isn't any malign intent on the OP's part so it's absolutely pointless to suggest such a thing. Unless of course the person claiming this intends to disrupt the ongoing discussion and sharing of ideas.

 

Now, to get back on-topic, your hypothesis seems logical and would be the best use of women for Astartes Chapters.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Chaplain Dosjetka
Typo.

[Pulse]

0.0 I didn't really intend for the thread to be bait for those kinds of arguments. Just wanted to put out a theory of mine that I gathered from the books.

 

Was a joke, something the mod missed but nevermind... can't have everything!

 

Tis certainly a good topic though and honestly i'd see women many roles, coming from a military background myself, women make up a lot of the analytical roles, Military Intelligence and such... it is certainly a possiblity within a Chapter i'd have thought, alongside more "hands on" roles, chapter serfs & on board Chapter vessels etc etc.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Pulse

[Brother Lunkhead]

First of all this is not about female Space Marines but a bit of theorizing about regular mortal women serving in the Chapter itself. 

 

I've noticed in a vast majority of Space Marine books that most Astartes ship captains and fighter pilots are female, both in the Heresy and 40k era. Of course this is probably the writers trying to insert female characters in SM books where they can but I figure there could be a very good in-universe explanation to it as well.

 

I'd say that whenever a Chapter collects its tithe in human children from a planet, the males are immediately put into aspirant training and should they wash out, become Chapter serfs themselves. However, the female children are trained from the start in operating the Chapter's naval vessels (serving as captains, radar and weapons officers, managing the ship's inventory etc.)

 

It's an interesting theory that is definitely worth considering, but taking into account how SM Chapters choose their aspirants, I don't think it quite bares up. Aspirants are chosen based on very strict physiological and psychological guidelines which includes the probability of surviving gene-seed introduction. As the saying goes, "many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14 for anyone who's interested). In the case of SM aspirants, FEW are called, but even FEWER are chosen. For those SM chapters that take a large tithe of human children from a planet only a very small percentage of male children will be chosen as SM aspirants. So, at best the number of tithed female and male children will be about equal. They all go into the serf training meat grinder together and come out the other end based of their individual abilities and the needs of the Chapter.

 

That's not to say that their won't be a lot of females in any given group that won't be assigned significant command and/or combat positions. That will probably be strictly based on merit (as SM Chapters will probably be less constrained by social traditions than human societies). It's  just not likely that a given tithed group will be predominately female.

 

I think what we are seeing in the 40k novels is the writers attempting to add more diversity by introducing more key female characters and in more important roles. And I think that is in and of itself a good thing!

 

Anyway.... that's just my opinion, and I'm stickin' to it.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Brother Lunkhead

[BrotherCaptainArkhan]

I think this is well-reasoned and much more mature than the vast majority of discussions on female representation in 31st/41st millennium material. On that basis I'm not sure if I've entered the Twilight Zone or not.

 

More seriously, the consideration that female contribution to a war effort would reflect a different one to that of Astartes male counterparts is underexplored, in my opinion. Astartes Chapters/Legions would make use of all resources at their disposal, and 50% of a planetary population certainly isn't going to be left out of the fight just because they have the wrong chromosomes. I don't think modern notions of sexism would necessarly occur to Astartes, anyway. Anything and anyone can be a weapon, but not all weapons have to be developed (or wielded) in the same fashion.

[Frater Cornelius]

A lot of these topics are about fighting. This is what we always see. Fighting. However, there is little mention about what it takes to keep Marines fighting. Someoness got to clean the Fortress Monastery, someone's got to cook the meals, someone's got to relay messages, maintain the ships, guard the place along with the Marines. I feel like the gargantuan effort Chapter Serfs undertake is underrepresented in general. While there are no female Marines, there are plenty female serfs. I know that the UM maintain their own IG Regiments and that the shipmaster of Calgar's personal transport ship is a regular human, as he does a very good job and Calgar does not see the need for an Astartes shipmaster instead.