CA GK points changes

[Zamtro]

50 points for a twin psycannon.... I don't even know where the logic or lack of it comes from. But there goes me wanting to use my Vortimer to be fluffy :( massive shame at the missed opportunity here!

[Waking Dreamer]

I'm curious,  I remember the "Terminator Wishlist" thread throughout 7th edition of possible ways Terminators would make their glorious return in 8th as competitive Elites!

 

So with the massive overhaul of core 8th edition rules / units / wargear....are terminators STILL in the SAME place as they were in 7th (besides the special death guard snowflakes)? 

[the jeske]

Well for GK it is actually the opposit. In 7th termintors were the troop of choice, right now they are a unit that doesn't make sense. If someone wants to use a troop unit, they will take strikes, who are better in every way for comperable points. If someone wants termintor armored models, he will take paladins, who again are better then termintors for same points.

 

As 8th ed termintors in general are more the same kind of meh, chaos ones are ok, because you can load them up with combi plasmas[no longer one per game], and make them shot twice. Plus they have synergy with warp time beingu sed on them or other units. Everyone else does not use termintors, as 8th is rather elite unfriendly with its mortal wounds, save mods, multi Damage weapons etc.

[Sn4k30r]

Imo they try nurf the Guilliman lists....RAvens-Razorbacks-BoB list, with point increase on those units....but they give the GKs codex a big hit.....Even raven know is going to be replaced with a Land raider cheaper?

[Gentlemanloser]

Design your own LR. Refuse to pay matched.

 

Spam vortex.

 

Yay...

[the jeske]

could work, when playing self made scenarios under 1250pts.

Imo they try nurf the Guilliman lists....RAvens-Razorbacks-BoB list, with point increase on those units....but they give the GKs codex a big hit.....Even raven know is going to be replaced with a Land raider cheaper?

Ok, I get it. Then why not just make the GK specific razorbacks cheaper. I know it is not a good fix, but it is way better then killing off an army. The separate points costs were suppose to be made just for that. And if the DT is worried that people will suddenly be running GK razorbacks in soup lists, then slap something like this on GK . Pride of Titan "Units with this trait can only be give buffs by other units with such a rule, or the Emperor".

 

The 50pts psycannon is unexplainable. Because it can be only one of two things. either someone who does the GK rules memorised a different rule set/stats for the psycannon from the testing time [where who knows maybe psycannons were str 5 hvy5 or str 8 rapid fire 2 0_0] or they person responsible thinks that psycannons have different rules then it actually has [thinking about them as AC with extra rules. could happen as my friend though for 5 years that AC were str 7].

[Sn4k30r]

i liked the Word "unexplainable"...... I just starting GKs (for the story) but i will try make a good list... but the way i look the Codex is 4-5 things which now leaves you with almost the half options.... 1)GMNDKs, 2)Strike squads all others are just funny expensive useless clones of this unit and worse maybe!! 3) Voldus 4)Draigo   and maybe Paladins now Ravens-transports almost gone :)

[Corvus Fortis]

We should whine more on facebook, really. One of us complained about Terminators and look, they at least did something. Obviously no hope for them to properly rebalance GK, but a point drop here and there could fix some issues with internal balance. Cheaper special weapons and bonus attack for purifiers are at least something possible. Another CA will be the there next year so probably when they would make some more changes.

 

And no, 20 pts increase would not make  stromraven that bad. No more twin assault cannons, but I never used them anyway. It is still one of the best units of the game. 

[Sn4k30r]

Stormraven  170-->190      +20    , 2xhurricane bolters from 2x4---> 2x10     that means extra +12 points and if you play TwinAC its from 35---->44 another 9 points so its an extra 32 to 41 depending if you go TLC or TAC....

[Gentlemanloser]

And now there's really no point taking a TAC razor when for only a couple of points more we can have the TLC version.

[Corvus Fortis]

Neither hurricane bolters no twin AC are necessary. I never used AC and hurricanes were clearly undercosted. Even 40 pts doen't make SR not worth it. Not for GK. Ranged anti-vehicle and fast transport. Its only downside is vulnerability. But TAC razorbacks are dead, I agree.

[Gentlemanloser]

So GW has responded and state they don't balance on any meta data but rather customer feedback.

 

Could i ask that we as a community get a response prepared to provide feedback on everything wrong with the GK.

 

And then mass feed it back yo GW through thier FB page and email?

 

It won't help us now, but supposedly there is another balance pass in March.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Gentlemanloser

[Holier Than Thou]

So GW has responded and state they don't balance on any meta data but rather customer feedback.

Could i ask that we as a community get a response prepared to provide feedback on everything wrong with the GK.

And then mass feed it back yo GW through thier FB page and email?

It won't help us now, but supposedly there is another balance pass in March.

I already emailed them about two months ago with the list of recommendations from this thread. You'll note NOTHING we suggested was included in Chapter Approved. By all means do it but it's most likely a complete waste of time. GW care not a jot about GKs and GKs players.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm hoping we can get an iverwhelming volume of response thst they just can't ignore us.

[Ticaliation]

 

So GW has responded and state they don't balance on any meta data but rather customer feedback.

Could i ask that we as a community get a response prepared to provide feedback on everything wrong with the GK.

And then mass feed it back yo GW through thier FB page and email?

It won't help us now, but supposedly there is another balance pass in March.

I already emailed them about two months ago with the list of recommendations from this thread. You'll note NOTHING we suggested was included in Chapter Approved. By all means do it but it's most likely a complete waste of time. GW care not a jot about GKs and GKs players.

 

then now it will have to be sent by LOT of people, so the feedback has much more weight...

Edited November 27, 2017 by Ticaliation

[Seizeman]

No amount of constructive feedback would make any difference. It takes minutes to realise how badly designed our codex is. The reason they fixed nothing in chapter approved is not because of a lack of good ideas, but because they are not willing to put any work in it.

 

The only thing that can make them move thair asses is to complain directly and to not buy their product.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well i have no desire to purchase CA.

 

But i want to do something. Apart from venting here of course! ;)

[Danarc]

It seems that even BA got some good traits and power and units. In particular they have the possibility to gain CP. every army got it but GK. every army had a point reduction but GK. I am quite disappointed. Definetly disappointed.

They don’t care about GK. I don’t care buyng GW. I didn’t purchase CA as I didn’t buy the index. Luckily I have all the models I need and until GW will not change his politic on GK i will never buy anything.

 

If we want to do something we can try but I am not persuaded that something could make the difference. Nevertheless also the Italian community would like to do something. Let me know.

[Adeptus]

I see a lot of people crying about balance.

 

40K has never been balanced. It never will be. Attempting to use the 40K rules and models and armies to play competitive, balanced games is an exercise in frustration and futility, and it always will be. If your goal is to match wits against your opponent in a high-level competitive setting, then the 40K rules are manifestly unfit for this purpose.

 

I would humbly (and quite seriously) suggest that if your intention is to play high-level competitive games, then sell your 40K stuff and invest in something from Fantasy Flight Games or look at Kings of War or one of the other tournament friendly games.

 

To enjoy 40K you need to approach it from a narrative viewpoint, you need to create your own scenarios, you need to throw points out the window and not care about your W/L/D record, and you need to find a homogenous group of like minded gamers.

 

Complaining about imbalance in 40K is like complaining how you can't run with the ball in a soccer match, or how takedowns are against the rules in a boxing match.

 

At the very least I recommend everyone at least have a go at playing the Narrative style of play, and use the narrative missions outlined in the rulebook. Use these as a jumping off point to start thinking more co-operatively with your opponent.

 

Or whatever. I'm a stranger on the internet, not your boss. I just don't want to see people wasting their time trying to push a square peg into a round hole, which is what you're trying to do when you use the 40K rules for competitive tournament style matches.

[Grandmaster Rich]

I see a lot of people crying about balance.

 

40K has never been balanced. It never will be. Attempting to use the 40K rules and models and armies to play competitive, balanced games is an exercise in frustration and futility, and it always will be. If your goal is to match wits against your opponent in a high-level competitive setting, then the 40K rules are manifestly unfit for this purpose.

 

I would humbly (and quite seriously) suggest that if your intention is to play high-level competitive games, then sell your 40K stuff and invest in something from Fantasy Flight Games or look at Kings of War or one of the other tournament friendly games.

 

To enjoy 40K you need to approach it from a narrative viewpoint, you need to create your own scenarios, you need to throw points out the window and not care about your W/L/D record, and you need to find a homogenous group of like minded gamers.

 

Complaining about imbalance in 40K is like complaining how you can't run with the ball in a soccer match, or how takedowns are against the rules in a boxing match.

 

At the very least I recommend everyone at least have a go at playing the Narrative style of play, and use the narrative missions outlined in the rulebook. Use these as a jumping off point to start thinking more co-operatively with your opponent.

 

Or whatever. I'm a stranger on the internet, not your boss. I just don't want to see people wasting their time trying to push a square peg into a round hole, which is what you're trying to do when you use the 40K rules for competitive tournament style matches.

No doubt the game will never be perfectly balanced.  But is it too difficult to ask for a codex to have good internal balance with each unit having certain valuable traits/characteristics that make it effective in your average 40k game?  We know they can create wonderfully fluffy codexes with great rules and internal balance (Eldar, IG, Tyranids are all really sweet codexes).  In terms of competitive, all we want is to be able to play most units in a matched play game and be reasonably competitive against other codex.  I don't think anyone here is talking about high-level tournament play, but local leagues, tournaments, and matched play pickup games. 

 

Moreover, this is specifically about the points changes in Chapter Approved, which GW explicitly denotes as a balance patch for the game.  Should we not expect to at least get a second look at our underperforming units?

Edited November 28, 2017 by Grandmaster Rich

[Zamtro]

I'm not exactly eloquent enough to put together a decent email (and i'll forget half of what needs to be said as I write it) but if someone does put together feedback, please post it and I'm happy to send it through too. 

 

I'll continue modelling my GK's but its looking more like I'll take GK HQ supreme command, and use my primaris as foot sloggers!

 

Edit: Just saw the other thread, ignore me.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Zamtro

[Gentlemanloser]

Adeptus, GW disagrees with you. Straight from thier 'Get ready for Chapter Approved' posts;

 

making the matched play field more balanced 

Conversly to your post, 40k isn't fit for a narrative story. If you wish that you'd be better served by Deathwatch or Inquisitor. You can even use your minis with those narative storytelling games.

[Adeptus]

Adeptus, GW disagrees with you.

They can disagree all they want, but they've got no idea, as evidenced by the codex releases and Chapter Approved. You really want to take their word for it after seeing the results they've put out?

 

40K is great for silly fun games, heroic last stands, convoy ambushes, rescue missions, etc, but despite their protestations to the contrary it's awful for competitive matched play. It just doesn't work, it's always required extensive work from the community to try and balance things through composition scoring at tournaments or the community comp system, or just a gentlemans agreement not to cheese out your list.

 

There's great games out there that are competitively balanced and with companies actively involved in managing the meta-game, but 40K and GW are not them.

[Gentlemanloser]

Different points.

 

The games designers disgree with your notion that the game shouldn't be balanced.

 

So far they have been shoddy in thier execution of that. But they are attempting to create 'better' balance. Rather than ignore the idea completely.

 

Wouldn't you rather help GW at least try to achieve this? Rather than to dismiss the notion out of hand?

[Adeptus]

I don't think the game shouldn't be balanced, I think GW are incapable of balancing it no matter how much feedback we give them. They've had thirty years to get it right and it's still a total cluster:cuss. They're never going to get it right. Getting mad about it, or wishing the game was other than it is, is just a waste of time and energy. Edited November 28, 2017 by Adeptus