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AoF move out of transports


35 replies to this topic

#1
bkde

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Is it possible to AoF an embarked squad out of a transport? I.e. AoF to disembark, then mive normally?

#2
CaptainMarsh

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No. They aren't on the table inside of the transport. Same thing with Seraphim flying in via deep strike.


QUOTE (BrotherAtrox @ Oct 5 2008, 07:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pieces of paper for impassable terrain? My main problem with all of this is it really takes away from the game. A giant sheet of white paper on the table sort of breaks the theme of tiny fake armies running around tiny fake locales.


Real men play Adepta Sororitas!


#3
bkde

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Reference?

 

Under the AoF rule there is no stipulation that the unit needs to be on the board.  It simply says "one unit from your army with the AoF ability can perform and AoF chosen from the following list".

 

Similarly are Dominions not able to Divine Guidance AoF out of a Repressor?



#4
Drider

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From transports brb p183.


Embark: If all models in a unit end their move within 3" of a friendly transport, they can embark within it. Remove the unit from the battlefield and place it to one side–it is now embarked in side the transport.

Embarked units cannot normally do any thing or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated,abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.
 

 

 

The RAW argument against: This would imply that the only reason you can shoot out of a repressor is because the repressor says you can. Ergo because the repressor doesn't say you can act of faith, so you can't do it.
 
The RAI argument against: With that aside the fact of the matter is it could probably do with clarification, but as has been the case with most things this edition, If there are multiple ways to interpret the rules and one of them offers a clear advantage which is miles better than the other then it's probably not intended. Consider the thing about celestine/imagifier giving AoF to units without the AoF, which turned out to be incorrect. 
 
The subjective argument against(follow on from RAI): Also consider the pros/cons and internal balance consistency, which are pretty subjective matters. Pros to put them in a transport, give them protection so they last longer. if it's an rhino/immo they have to get out, to shoot and even if they could AoF from inside they would have to use it for movement rather than shooting. Balance would be that because they gain protection they should lose out on utility vs units on foot who can AoF.
 
Rule of thumb; be conservative, play it safe. if we find out later that the more powerful interpretation is correct then we can play that way instead, no harm no foul. 
 
On an related but off topic issue. I never used to shoot the unit (if it had assault weapons) if i had advanced the repressor because i wasn't sure of the rules or precedent behind it, until it was pointed out, by the rules guy at my club, that the precedent would be ork open topped vehicles which state on the data slate that any effect that the vehicle is under would confer to the unit embarked. I.E. if the trukk moved then the unit would count as having moved, if the trukk advanced the unit would count as having advanced. And i still am not sure how the hell to resolve overwatch for the unit embarked inside a repressor. do they get to? don't they get to? the way i've been playing it is that, no they can't because i can't say for certainty that they can.

Edited by Drider, 01 December 2017 - 12:07 AM.


#5
Servant of Dante

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They don’t get overwatch because they aren’t being charged. You overwatch when you’re the target of a charge. The repressor is the target (I’ve never seen this debate happen before, but it seems straightforward to me).

And for the original question, units in transports can be affected by rules unless the rule explicitly mentions units in transports, like Drider said. AoF doesn’t say you can pick anunit in a transport, so you can’t.

Edited by Servant of Dante, 01 December 2017 - 02:13 AM.


#6
bkde

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It needs to be FAQ'd.  I found that same wording from the BRB when I was looking it up earlier.  Emphasis mine.  

 

"Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked."

 

Then the index wording: 

 

"One unit from your army with the AoF ability can perform an Act of Faith chosen from the following list"

 

Which makes it seem like the index would then over-ride the "not normally".  Flipside, would units be able to use the Hand of the Emperor AoF to move as per the movement phase and embark into a transport?

 

Thanks for the responses, was curious to see how others were interpreting it.  Hopefully Chapter Approved will provide some clarity!



#7
FallenSoldiers

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They don’t get overwatch because they aren’t being charged. You overwatch when you’re the target of a charge. The repressor is the target (I’ve never seen this debate happen before, but it seems straightforward to me).

And for the original question, units in transports can be affected by rules unless the rule explicitly mentions units in transports, like Drider said. AoF doesn’t say you can pick anunit in a transport, so you can’t.


But, if they’re charging your transport they’ll likely end that charge within 1” of the embarked models, which would be an illegal charge since they didn’t also declare the charge against the unit inside?

Just a devils advocate position here, since it’ll surely come up from someone somewhere

#8
Drider

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But would it though? You can't assign attacks to units  you didn't charge, you also can't assign attacks to the unit inside the transport. so it does line up from the attackers PoV.



#9
FallenSoldiers

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Driver: that only applies to units that you pull into combat during pile in. If you do not declare a charge against it you can not end the charge phase within 1” of the unit.

#10
bkde

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For overwatch out of repressors I think it's worth looking to the wording on the Repressor data sheet. "Embarked models can shoot in the Shooting phase". Because overwatch occurs in the Charge phase the models inside do not get to shoot. Repressor can still overwatch though.

#11
FallenSoldiers

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For overwatch out of repressors I think it's worth looking to the wording on the Repressor data sheet. "Embarked models can shoot in the Shooting phase". Because overwatch occurs in the Charge phase the models inside do not get to shoot. Repressor can still overwatch though.


That settles that!

#12
Beams

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I've seen a lot of people suggest that you can AoF the units in the Repressor to shoot?

#13
Servant of Dante

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They don’t get overwatch because they aren’t being charged. You overwatch when you’re the target of a charge. The repressor is the target (I’ve never seen this debate happen before, but it seems straightforward to me).

And for the original question, units in transports can be affected by rules unless the rule explicitly mentions units in transports, like Drider said. AoF doesn’t say you can pick anunit in a transport, so you can’t.

But, if they’re charging your transport they’ll likely end that charge within 1” of the embarked models, which would be an illegal charge since they didn’t also declare the charge against the unit inside?

Just a devils advocate position here, since it’ll surely come up from someone somewhere
They aren’t on the board, so no, charging the repressor does not bring you within 1” of them. Plus as stated, they cannot do anything normally, and the Repressor only lets them shoot in the shooting phase.

For the AoF issue, I’ll agree it is a bit ambiguous, but I wouldn’t allow a unit in a transport to use an AoF. That’s just me though.

Edited by Servant of Dante, 01 December 2017 - 11:36 PM.


#14
bkde

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I've seen a lot of people suggest that you can AoF the units in the Repressor to shoot?

 

As per the AoF rules: "On a roll of 2+, one unit from your army with the Acts of Faith ability can perform and Act of Faith chosen from the following list...

 

Step 1) Does the unit embarked in the Repressor have the AoF rule?

Step 2) Shoot as per the shooting phase -> could the unit shoot normally in the shooting phase?

Step 3) Look at datasheet for Repressor, yes, in the shooting phase the unit embarked may shoot drawing line of site from any point on repressors hull

 

The counter argument is that the embarked unit does not count as being on the board, "in play", etc. AoF's do not require a unit to be "on the table" merely to have the AoF special rule.  To go all the way back to the second comment in this thread, yes, you could choose a unit of seraphim in deep strike to AoF...it just wouldn't be a particularly wise choice as they would have no where to move, nothing to shoot at or nothing to fight.

 

The other counter argument is that "units embarked in transports cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way while embarked" - BRB page 183

 

The Act of Faith rule creates a situation that is "not normal"  thereby allowing the unit within the transport to be affected by the AoF.  Otherwise (and this is conjecture on my part) the AoF ruling would read: "choose a unit with the act of faith special rule, excluding units embarked in transports...".  The Repressor datasheet then violates the "not normally" clause again by permitting units to shoot.

 

Based on how quickly FAQ's have been released, I would have expected a change to AoFs if they were not permissible to be used on units embarked within transports to have been addressed within the first Imperium 2 FAQ.  Particularly as the Imperium 2 FAQ is quite comprehensive; covering things such as Celestine/Imaginfiers giving AoF's to units without the AoF special rule as well as very specific missed wargear options to sister superiors from various units.


Edited by bkde, 02 December 2017 - 12:26 AM.


#15
Servant of Dante

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The Repressor is however a forgeworld unit, and is not in Index: Imperium 2

#16
bkde

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It is, but there's no special exclusion made for it regarding the Act of Faith rule and models embarked either on the data sheet or in the FAQ released for IA: Vehicles of the Adeptus Astartes.

I think at this point you're splitting hairs.

To sum up:
Valid to AoF move and disembark units out of transports
Valid to AoF move units to embark onto transports
Valid to select a unit inside a Repressor to shoot with the embarked unit using an AoF

#17
CaptainMarsh

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To be fair, you're pretty much the only one I've seen suggest that you can do this, and are stretching and adding additional qualifications to AoF to do so. I have yet to see anyone allow AoF inside of a transport. Namely, you're making an assumption that Acts of Faith override the not normally section of transport rules when there is no reason to believe it does. You are focusing on a specific wording and then making a leap of faith in an attempt to have it work the way you believe it does when we have no actual reason to believe it does. It doesn't need to be FAQ'd or clarified unless the FAQ or clarification makes it clear you can use it off-board or in a transport. If it is to clarify that it can't be used then it doesn't need to be FAQ'd because it is the rather clear RAW and RAI interpretation.


Edited by CaptainMarsh, 02 December 2017 - 07:18 PM.

QUOTE (BrotherAtrox @ Oct 5 2008, 07:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pieces of paper for impassable terrain? My main problem with all of this is it really takes away from the game. A giant sheet of white paper on the table sort of breaks the theme of tiny fake armies running around tiny fake locales.


Real men play Adepta Sororitas!


#18
bkde

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I disagree. I think you're intentionally handicapping yourself. The AoF qualifications are clear. Choose a unit with the AoF special rule.

If there was to be a restriction in units in transports it would clearly say "excluding units embarked on transports"

The Adepta Sororitas tactics page from 1d4chan appears to have a similar interpretation as I do. And while that is far from a credible source, I would be interested in seeing if there are other forums with other interpretations to see what the consensus is.

Link to 1d4chan page for reference:
https://1d4chan.org/..._Ministorum(8E)

Under the Acts of Faith description, bottom couple paragraphs.

#19
Drider

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better remove that link before you get a telling off.

For reference 

 


Now of course comes the question: What do I have to pay for all this? Well, you get a free AoF on a 2+ every turn; This is what makes a single unit of the Adepta Sororitas a great ally, because said unit will almost always get an AoF for itself every turn, giving an otherwise average unit the ability to move, shoot, or fight twice a turn, or spontaneously grow back bolters.
 
More AoF? Well, this is starting to hurt. You can get a free AoF for an Adepta Sororitas unit within 6" of Saint Celestine every turn - which isn't a bad idea by any means - but any more will make you shell out 40 pts/2 PL for an Imagifier, a bolter babe with 4W, 3A, WS3+ but mainly the ability to make an <Order> unit within 6" perform an AoF on a 4+ every turn. Only useful for footloging army in an edition were non-horde infantry is bad.
 
It is to be noted that units don't have to be on the table to use their AOF, merely part of your army. Dominions in repressor can use those to fire trough firing ports, you can make a disembark movement, etc...
 

 

Acts of Faith are a blessing and a curse. By itself the rule is great, but GW has historically costed the Sisters of Battle as if they could use their AOF every single turn while it's still quite random/don't scale up at all. The current edition have it completely overpowered for sisters of battle as allies, but a nice bonus at best for sister-only armies.

 

I assume that's the specific part you are referencing. 



#20
dracpanzer

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It is, but there's no special exclusion made for it regarding the Act of Faith rule and models embarked either on the data sheet or in the FAQ released for IA: Vehicles of the Adeptus Astartes.
I think at this point you're splitting hairs.
To sum up:
Valid to AoF move and disembark units out of transports
Valid to AoF move units to embark onto transports
Valid to select a unit inside a Repressor to shoot with the embarked unit using an AoF


I disagree with all of that. Units in a transport do not count as being on the table for the purposes of abilities or auras. The Repressor has a special rule permitting embarked passengers to shoot during the shooting phase. The Repressor doesn't have a rule allowing the embarked passengers to otherwise interact with anything else on the table. The Repressor is on the table, it does not have the AoF rule and therefore can't be targeted by an AoF. The Repressor also doesn't have a rule allowing embarked passengers to be targeted by an AoF. So, they can't.
gallery_53617_12047_29898.jpg

#21
Atrus

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People people people....this is how we lost double shooting Exorcists :D

#22
Drider

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I'm sure we can all recall how messy that particular topic got.

#23
Servant of Dante

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I think this is something I’d talk over with your group. Even if you think it works RAW, it’s the kind of thing that could very easily generate ill-will. So it would probabaly be best to see what your opponent thinks.

#24
bkde

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@Drider, yep that was the paragraph I was referencing.

@Dracpanzer
"Units do not count as being on the table for the purposes of abilities or auras"

I could be mistaken, but I don't think this is in the rulebook. As stated above from Pg. 183 the correct wording is:

"Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked."

The wording is important "the unit that has the ability is embarked", yes, models do not get to use their abilities or auras while the model with the ability is embarked. Would Dominions shooting out of a Repressor (in the shooting phase) within 6" of a friendly Cannoness not still get the re-roll one's ability from the Cannoness? Or no, because the doms themselves are not on the table?

Also, regarding the repressor having a rule "allowing units embarked to be targeted by an aof". Why would it? The AoF rule already states that in order to be selected for an AoF the only requirement is the unit targeted has the AoF rule. If anything it should have an exception, i.e. "Units embarked may not be selected for an AoF". The arguement that a unit needs to be on the board to be targeted for an AoF has been proven to be false. It's not part of the AoF rule. You're adding in an extra stipulation that simply is not in the rules.

The more I've looked into this topic the more I've seen very unclear arguments regarding why AoFing a unit within a transport is prohibited. Most seem to reference the pg.183 arguement, however the way that rule is worded "not normally" leaves it very open to interpretation.

A similar question was asked on dakka regarding shooting out of repressors. Link:

https://www.dakkadak...ist/737522.page

Their ruling was "no" again based on the pg.183 brb rules. However how AoF interact with this rule is still unclear. Note that this was also asked by a nonSisters player who was having issues with his friend's Sisters army...so there is an element of bias and their understanding of AoF may not be as indepth.

The question that really exists is:
Does the AoF rule violate the "not normally" clause found on pg. 183 of the brb?

A clear response to this question would answer all of the above. Hopefully a clear ruling will be provided via FAQ. Thanks to all of you for taking the time to respond and share your interpretations! Cheers!

#25
Drider

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I asked the community team. With any luck they will get back with an answer one way or the other, or at the very least it'll make it into the next faq.



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