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Are the primarchs man made demons?

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#1
slitth

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I have a vague theory about the primarchs.

I believe that they are man made "demons"

That they are 20 ideas given form in the warp by the emperor and then given flesh.

 

What is the basics of the theory?

Firstly that the where was only made 20, and the was on replacement made for the 2 "lost"

If the primarchs are just super human made from advantage genetics, then I would be possible to make more when the process was discovered.

 

Secondly. the emperor did not kill and then clone Angron when he was discovered and considered flawed.

 

The reason for this 2 things could be the nature of the "spirit" of the primarchs.

If they are mortal man made demon given flesh, then perhaps it impossible to transfer the existing spirit and impossible to make a new one.

Reforging the flesh is possible, but useless without the "spirit"

 

It could also explain why Fabius Bile is having a hard time remaking the perfect primarch.

He got the cloning down, but lags the binding of the "demon" to be truly successful.

 

Now what do you think?

Is there some merit to this vague theory or is it just me seeing patterns that are not there?


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#2
Volt

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This isn't exactly a well kept secret. The Primarchs have souls that behave like daemons, are infused with warp magic, are all psykers with unique abilities, and literally bleed warp energy when cut.


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#3
Kastor Krieg

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This isn't exactly a well kept secret. The Primarchs have souls that behave like daemons, are infused with warp magic, are all psykers with unique abilities, and literally bleed warp energy when cut.

Citation please? For the souls like daemons, for all of them having psyker powers and for bleeding warp energy when wounded?

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#4
Kastor Krieg

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I have a vague theory about the primarchs.
I believe that they are man made "demons"
That they are 20 ideas given form in the warp by the emperor and then given flesh.
 
What is the basics of the theory?
Firstly that the where was only made 20, and the was on replacement made for the 2 "lost"
If the primarchs are just super human made from advantage genetics, then I would be possible to make more when the process was discovered.
 
Secondly. the emperor did not kill and then clone Angron when he was discovered and considered flawed.
 
The reason for this 2 things could be the nature of the "spirit" of the primarchs.
If they are mortal man made demon given flesh, then perhaps it impossible to transfer the existing spirit and impossible to make a new one.
Reforging the flesh is possible, but useless without the "spirit"
 
It could also explain why Fabius Bile is having a hard time remaking the perfect primarch.
He got the cloning down, but lags the binding of the "demon" to be truly successful.
 
Now what do you think?
Is there some merit to this vague theory or is it just me seeing patterns that are not there?

I have seen the same patterns, but ascribed them to the Emperor's qualities as Him being the embodiment of purified Mankind (soul shards, if you will) and Emperor attempting to know himself by studying how his Primarchs would behave "out in the wild", as conquerors. More on that here: www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/327641-missing-primarchs-emperor-perfectly-flawed/


Also, after some time, I have decided that the Emperor wished to remove certain known or expected outcomes from the equation and thus removed two primarchs and their Legions. He did not foresee some others or the absence of the two has affected the balance and the others "misbehaving" have happened as an unforeseen result.

There's a LOT of that hidden between the lines or stated outright in "Master of Mankind".

Edited by Kastor Krieg, 30 November 2017 - 09:56 AM.

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#5
Charlo

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Yes and no.

 

We know that the Emperor used the power of the warp (e.g. Chaos) in their creation and that they are all in one way or another touched by the warp.

 

They also exhibit psychic/ warp abilities be it reserves of insane strength, eyes glowing with raw power, super stealth, potential shapeshifting etc

 

They aren't true daemons as they cannot be "banished" and are always in the material realm. They're probably closer to "Daemon Prices of The Emperor."


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#6
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Well technically the Primarchs were a made using Warp stuffs by ole Emps. The Primarchs themselves don't embody any humors or anything, they are simply the product of the environment they were raised in. That their specialty emulates somehow what their geneseed also somehow passes onto any Astartes is just heavy handed fluff tossed out by GW (and at times even worse by FW... see Night Lords). But there is some speculation that the Chaos God themselves had a hand in creating the Primarchs or at least giving the Emperor the powers and / or knowledge on how to do so. 


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#7
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Unnatural warp-forged steel met the iron flesh of a primarch, its aberrant edge cutting through Ferrus’s skin, muscle and bone with a shrieking howl that echoed in realms beyond those knowable to mortals.

Blood and the monumental energies bound within the meat and gristle of one of the Emperor’s sons erupted from the wound, and Fulgrim fell back as the searing powers blinded him, dropping the silver sword at his side. He heard a shrieking wail, as of a choir of banshees, whip around him as phantom, skeletal hands clawed at him, and a thousand voices tore at his mind.
Ghostly whirlwinds seized him and spun him around, twisting him like a limp rag in their grip, and threatening to tear him limb from limb in retribution. Even as he welcomed such oblivion, he felt another presence move to protect him, the same presence that had guided his sword arm, the same presence that had been his constant companion since Laeran, though he had not known it.

 

Fulgrim

 


Dorn rammed the spear through his brother’s chest. The tip punched through the power plant on the back of Alpharius’ armour. Alpharius’ mouth opened, his eyes wide. A great wash of blood poured from between his teeth. Dorn held him on the spear, the two so close that it seemed almost an embrace. The air around them was blurring like a heat haze as the blood struck the floor. 
A high wail was rising with a coil of wind, which circled the pair. Alpharius’ mouth moved, forming words. Dorn was still for a second, his eyes blank and black in the carved stone of his face. Then he pushed Alpharius away. Snakes of light writhed through the air. The primarch of the Alpha Legion staggered, mouth still moving.
Rogal Dorn brought Storm’s Teeth around. The blade cut down through Alpharius’ skull, and then tore free in a spray of blood and a detonation of light.

 

Praetorian of Dorn

 

Primarchs bleed warp energy when cut, including blinding bursts of light/energy and even outright warp projections such as warped rays of light. Psykers looking at Primarchs also do not see men, but things.

 


It seemed impossible that any foe could stand against this warrior. Ahriman saw wild, unchecked power in Russ, a recklessness of spirit that jarred with his own strict discipline and dedication to duty. Leman Russ blazed with incandescent white fire, his aura filled with unnameable colours. So forceful was it that Ahriman shut himself off from the aether, the primarch’s searing presence in the Great Ocean like the first instant of a supernova. He blinked away the glittering afterimages, feeling a nauseous surge of dislocation before his mortal senses adjusted to the sudden absence of extra sensory information.

 

Furthermore in Talon of Horus, Khayon (who is at least a beta tier psyker) faints upon mere exposure to Sanguinius' fresh blood, preserved within a Stasis field. Dark Imperium also confirms the "support" Primarchs like Guilliman even had psychic powers, Guilliman merely suppressed his. That and all of them exhibit psychic abilities such as overpowering auras, psychic resistance, and unnatural abilities which vary between the Primarchs (Curze teleports through shadows and can become a two dimensional object, Khan shuts down other psykers and their powers, Corax has absurd stealthy abilities somewhat similar to Curze, etc).


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#8
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A daemon is just an aspect of emotion in the warp.

The Primarchs are certainly made using Warp Manipulation, but that's no indication of them being a Daemon. The warp is simply energy.
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#9
Sandlemad

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Daemon is not particularly useful as a term to describe what the primarchs are but it is the main 40k thing we have to compare them to. They are inherently artificial supernatural beings, as much of the warp as of the materium. The Khan thinks about how familiar the warp feels and how he knows they were made to war on 'both sides of the veil'. It's not exactly that they all are active psykers as we think of it but they are all inherently in-touch with the warp and can make use of that, consciously or unconsciously, to various degrees. All the stuff that Volt mentioned. It's pretty clear that whatever advanced genetics went into their creation were as much warp-science and alchemy as anything material.

 

Daemons are not just entities that live in the warp and are made of warp stuff though, they're also (mostly) aspects of their god. How much this applies to the primarchs is up for debate. There's that soul shard thing Kastor Krieg mentions or how they represent different aspects of the Emperor's personality, but they've all got ten times the independence and development of the most 'fleshed out' greater daemon or daemon prince. They're much less reducible to a single idea than even complex daemons like Drach'nyen.

The Emperor can't snap his fingers and dissolve them, they have a semi-permanent material existence, they can think and learn and grow, they don't waste away or rely on a warp rift. Could they return after dying, as a daemon does after banishment? Hard to say.

 

So daemons don't fit exactly. It's probably better to put the primarchs in this larger category of warp entities. They don't fit particularly well (being mysterious, partially material, artificial lifeforms) but it's a broad enough grouping to include things like psychneuin and enslavers, both of which do have a physical existence in the materium.


Edited by Sandlemad, 30 November 2017 - 01:27 PM.


#10
slitth

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If demons are warp power that if given more or less personality because they are an aspect of emotion.

 

Then perhaps the primarchs are ideas, concepts and emotions that the emperor values or respect.

If we somehow manages to imbue "pure" warp power with this ideas, concepts and emotions.

Then the emperor could create "demons" or "warp spirits" that are personification of this ideas, concepts and emotions.

 

They would probably be very exposed in the warp as the other demons would probably want to destroy and devour them.

And "spirits" trapped in the warp would not help the emperor conquered the universe.

 

So the solution is to permanently bind the "spirits" to the material world.

 

In short make "fake" greater "demons" based on a mix of ideas, concepts and emotions that make the emperor who he is.

And them make them into a mortal being of flesh and blood.

 

Or as the demons might say. Make a new never born and make the world give birth to it.

With is probably every demons wishes, to be born a god without the limitations of warp.


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#11
LordVelype

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They aren´t man-made demons, they are half-god/ god-made demons. msn-wink.gif

Well big E made a pact with the chaos gods tiself to create them, so there are quite some warp juices woven in while creating them. 

It is elbaorated a bit in "The First Heretic", but I´m not so sure, if this counts as a spoiler (and I don´t know how to use the `spoiler` tags... tongue.png).


Edited by LordVelype, 30 November 2017 - 05:27 PM.

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#12
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Absolutely not. Except, yes. 100%.

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#13
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Nope. They are demon made men.

#14
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Nope. They are demon made men.


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#15
Sete

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It was just word play. The Primarchs are a mix of genetics and sorcery. The Emperor did not barter with the chaos gods, for in that way lies deception and damnation. The warp gods would not barter with the instrument of their downfall.
That we may never know.

#16
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It was just word play. The Primarchs are a mix of genetics and sorcery. The Emperor did not barter with the chaos gods, for in that way lies deception and damnation. The warp gods would not barter with the instrument of their downfall.
That we may never know.

To create the Primarchs? Sure, the Chaos Gods absolutely would. Individuals with supreme power yet possessed of confused, complex minds and souls are utterly perfect targets for corruption. The Emperor is dangerous to the Gods because of the unparalleled scale and clarity of his vision, whilst the Primarchs are just as emotionally messy (if not messier) than the typical mortal.


Edited by Scammel, 30 November 2017 - 09:31 PM.

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#17
Urriak Urruk

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I guess Primarchs are "man-made daemons," or daemons-made-flesh, but that in turn makes them NOT daemons. Primarchs are really their own unique thing.



#18
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The Warp energies only seem to come up in terminal cases. Mortarion and Jaghatai cut each other to ribbons and there's only blood.

Regarding ToH, it's more that the Talon's soul is tainted by the wounding of the Emperor and Sanguinius' death.

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#19
Marshal Loss

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Primarchs are not Daemons. At the most literal definition, Daemons are a part of their creating god. The Daemon Primarchs, for example, along with all Greater and Lesser Daemons, literally exist at the whim of their God, an entity that they are a part of. This is not the case with Primarchs. The power of the Immaterium was used in their creation, and all are attuned to it, some far more than others, but that doesn't make them Daemons. We have seen nothing to indicate that the Emperor could absorb them at a whim, or that they are simply manifestations of his will. They are as much creatures of science as they are of the warp.

 

You could describe them as creatures of the warp and I wouldn't have a problem with it, but daemons? Completely different. It's like looking at beer and bread and saying they are both the same because they are made from the same thing. They're unique.

 

As for some of the points on this page

  • Fabius did clone, for all we know, the perfect Primarch. The Horus clone in Talon of Horus appeared to be a perfect clone, right down to possessing Horus' memories, and forcing the gods to be concerned that this clone was upsetting the balance of things, as Horus was meant to be dead. (rip bald angry daemon jesus)
  • The Talon of Horus was used to kill the Emperor, so the reaction Khayon gets is also from the fact that His blood is also dried on the blades of the weapon, the psychic resonance of Sanguinius' murder cursing his sons doesn't make him a Daemon. Emotions are a big deal in the warp, and that weapon killed countless thousands of people, including betrayed sons, and then Horus' brother and father, and then Horus' clone himself. That's a lot of evil and betrayal staining the weapon, and those connected to the people slain by the weapon are going to be far more affected than others who didn't have their genetic ancestor brutally torn apart by the Talon. We'll get more information on this when bald angry daemon jesus murders him in a BL novel within a couple of years.

I will say though that the reality is that there is a lot of mystery surrounding the Primarchs' conception, which is as it should be, and I very much doubt we'll ever conclusively learn what kind of bargains the Emperor made (or didn't make) to create them. But it seems reasonably clear to me that while they are psychically attuned and at least partly made of the warp, that they are clearly not Daemons, ergo why they are so special.


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#20
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#21
slitth

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Not all demons are directly tied to or made by the 4 gods.

 

The furies are the weak demons that are not made by the 4, only claimed.

And we have demons like Be'lakor and Drach'nyen.

 

True those types demons give and grant power to the 4 gods.

But they are example that the lines are not as easily defined are just belonging to the 4.

Like the physical world, the creatures of the warp are not easily put in to neat little boxes.

 

Nor do it think that the Horus clone was perfect.

Fine and impressive work no doubt, but to me it seemed to lack something.

 

After all there was no "light show" or "special even" when he died,


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#22
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Primarchs are not Daemons. At the most literal definition, Daemons are a part of their creating god. The Daemon Primarchs, for example, along with all Greater and Lesser Daemons, literally exist at the whim of their God, an entity that they are a part of. This is not the case with Primarchs. The power of the Immaterium was used in their creation, and all are attuned to it, some far more than others, but that doesn't make them Daemons. We have seen nothing to indicate that the Emperor could absorb them at a whim, or that they are simply manifestations of his will. They are as much creatures of science as they are of the warp.

You could describe them as creatures of the warp and I wouldn't have a problem with it, but daemons? Completely different. It's like looking at beer and bread and saying they are both the same because they are made from the same thing. They're unique.


The Emperor is a god. The Primarchs are shards of his soul given form. The primarchs are part of the emperor, and thus by your definitions *are* daemons. There have been long discussions on b&c about what aspect of the emperor each primarch is.

Greater daemons can be subsumed at will, but those Daemon princes formed from raised mortals can not be, or are not. A Daemon prince is a formerly mortal shell into which the power of the warp is poured. Once the gods gift this, they cannot remove it directly, as per Be'Lakor.

If you doubt the soul splitting ability of the emperor, or whether he can instill a shard of his soul in a mortal shell, read anything published about Magnus the Red in the last 3 years 😃

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#23
Xenith

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In addition, the first paragraph of 'A Thousand Sons' is literally about how the emperor could obliterate any of the primarchs at will, anytime he wanted, from anywhere.

Edited by Xenith, 01 December 2017 - 06:48 PM.

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#24
slitth

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It is all too easy to describe the emperor as a god, because of all his power.

 

But in naming him as a god we are diminishing his achievements.

It one thing for a god to achieve all the emperor has done. I would expect a god to do all this and more.

 

But for a man to do all this is quite a feat, to rival a the achievements of a god and still remain a man is something else.

That is the emperor true gift, to show man that he does not need gods, man can do it without the divine.


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#25
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Not all demons are directly tied to or made by the 4 gods.

The furies are the weak demons that are not made by the 4, only claimed.
And we have demons like Be'lakor and Drach'nyen.

True those types demons give and grant power to the 4 gods.
But they are example that the lines are not as easily defined are just belonging to the 4.
Like the physical world, the creatures of the warp are not easily put in to neat little boxes.

Nor do it think that the Horus clone was perfect.
Fine and impressive work no doubt, but to me it seemed to lack something.

After all there was no "light show" or "special even" when he died,


Well, we have examples of Imperial Daemons in Talon of Horus, where the Firetide was describes, a massive firestorm in the Warp where the light of the Astronomican and the Eye of Terror meet. A gigantic clash between Daemons and Angels. Closer to Terra, there are worlds in the Warp that are basked in light, yet not burned by it. Those are called Radiant Worlds.

Such an angel did appear to some traitors, warning them what would happen if they join Abaddon, after Horus fell. Imagine a Stormcast mask as a face, that everyone sees differently, bronze skin, white robes. Or just read Talon of Horus. Same thing :P

But yes, there are “Emperor Daemons”, a Primarchs are close to humans than to those beings. It is like comparing a calculator to a gaming rig. Both are made of metals and plastics, but their function, capabilities and creation are different. Only the material used is the same. Whatever the bodies are made of, Primarchs still have human souls and their own free will, something Daemons do not possess. They are subject to their nature and the emotion that created them. A Primarch could choose to ignore it and walk his own path.

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