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Competitive BA list discussion *Post-Codex*


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#1
CrimsonExarch

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Ok so now that we have the majority of the codex revealed, what are the competitive options we have? Can we compete with the likes of Chaos armies, Guard lists, Gulliman Razorback spam?

 

What are you guys thinking? 



#2
Xerxus

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I think that a 15 man DC squad backed by Lemartes and a DC Lieutenant has potential. You can do the reliable deepstrike charge and really get stuck in there, exploiting any weaknesses in the opponent's line and tying up tanks. If the opponent has scouting units that block all your deepstrike opportunities you can instead deploy them normally and do the double move across the battlefield, as long as you get the first turn. If you bring a Lieutenant and make him your warlord you can take the fearless aura trait and protect the squad from morale damage. And assuming that you can spare the CP there's also the option of a second pile-in for 3 CP which can be devastating.

 

I'm not sure that this combo is competitive in a tournament setting or even our best choice, but it's what I intend to try first. 


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#3
Panda_Saurus_Rex

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My list is up in the "My Path to Tournaments" thread and I see no reason to change it at this point. I might swap out the Sanguinary Priest for a Lieutenant but I want hands on the book before I commit to anything.

The Descent of Angels strat completely changes the way I play that army. You're telling me I have a 74% chance to land my best punch on my opponent? That is awesome. I have nothing else because that is just awesome.

I'm thinking of giving the Capt the Relic JP so he can drop in with the 15 man DC squad, charge first to negate overwatch, then charge the DC. Probably drop the Libby in too just to give them the +1 attack.

This is going to be pretty pricey though as that strategem is 2CP I think, I'll already have spent one making the Capt DC, then probably spending 3CP to attack twice with the DC. So now that is 6 of 9 command points spent in turn 1. This will still most likely be worth it.



#4
Jolemai

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Going just on leaks, I still feel we need FW to really compete - especially considering the points drops on a number of decent options.

 

So Scouts, Sicaran(s), Scorpius are likely to be staples for a while until we unearth all the potential this Codex has.


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#5
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Has everyone forgotten that opponents can back away from combat or shoot everything at that DS JP charging unit? Thats a dead unit after the first turn.

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#6
Pendent

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Has everyone forgotten that opponents can back away from combat or shoot everything at that DS JP charging unit? Thats a dead unit after the first turn.

On 3d6 you can pull of some crazy multi-charges so backing up will hurt your opponent a lot more.



#7
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Has everyone forgotten that opponents can back away from combat or shoot everything at that DS JP charging unit? Thats a dead unit after the first turn.

On 3d6 you can pull of some crazy multi-charges so backing up will hurt your opponent a lot more.
Can you elaborate caus i cant see that happening in turn 1...

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#8
Jolemai

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You've still got to roll over nine. Granted it's easier to do but you will fail from time to time. IIMO this stratagem is nought more than a gimmick and shouldn't be relied on :(


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#9
Panda_Saurus_Rex

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Has everyone forgotten that opponents can back away from combat or shoot everything at that DS JP charging unit? Thats a dead unit after the first turn.

On 3d6 you can pull of some crazy multi-charges so backing up will hurt your opponent a lot more.

 


Exactly! And what's more, with the pile in and attack twice strat means you are getting another 6" of free movement and JP means you can jump over anything you want to. Sure they can probably leave combat and shoot me but after I've whittled down whatever it was I charged AND now I'm deep into enemy lines.

DC are going to die. They will be targeted out by any opponent who has any idea what they can do. I'd rather they die AFTER landing my punch than before.



#10
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You've still got to roll over nine. Granted it's easier to do but you will fail from time to time. IIMO this stratagem is nought more than a gimmick and shouldn't be relied on sad.png

That's why you take Lemartes as well. With his re-roll you have a 98% chance to roll a 9+ at least.


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.

 

So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

 

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#11
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You've still got to roll over nine. Granted it's easier to do but you will fail from time to time. IIMO this stratagem is nought more than a gimmick and shouldn't be relied on sad.png

 

 

True but with command re-rolls and/or Lemartes you just keep increasing the chances. I'll have to practice it of course but the payoff is worth it. I run a 15-man DC squad with one power sword, one thunder hammer, and the rest bolt pistol/chainsword (I can't yet bring my self to snap off arms to replace with bolters).

That's 65 attacks with just chainswords if I get the +1 attack power off.
130 if I attack twice.

That most likely wipes whatever it was you initially charged and then some. The risk is well worth the reward.



#12
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You've still got to roll over nine. Granted it's easier to do but you will fail from time to time. IIMO this stratagem is nought more than a gimmick and shouldn't be relied on sad.png



True but with command re-rolls and/or Lemartes you just keep increasing the chances. I'll have to practice it of course but the payoff is worth it. I run a 15-man DC squad with one power sword, one thunder hammer, and the rest bolt pistol/chainsword (I can't yet bring my self to snap off arms to replace with bolters).

That's 65 attacks with just chainswords if I get the +1 attack power off.
130 if I attack twice.

That most likely wipes whatever it was you initially charged and then some. The risk is well worth the reward.
Forget the command reroll. 1 strategem per phase

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#13
Jolemai

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... and how much CP is that all together you've thrown on one squad of DC which has no guarantee of making that 9" charge? This is a lot of eggs in one basket for something which will go wrong from time to time :(


Ah, ninja'd with Lemartes. Seems like we're being pigeonholded now :(



#14
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... and how much CP is that all together you've thrown on one squad of DC which has no guarantee of making that 9" charge? This is a lot of eggs in one basket for something which will go wrong from time to time :(

Ah, ninja'd with Lemartes. Seems like we're being pigeonholded now :(

Yup. Into investing in an alpha strike that will be dead and innefective by turn 2
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#15
sfPanzer

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You've still got to roll over nine. Granted it's easier to do but you will fail from time to time. IIMO this stratagem is nought more than a gimmick and shouldn't be relied on sad.png



True but with command re-rolls and/or Lemartes you just keep increasing the chances. I'll have to practice it of course but the payoff is worth it. I run a 15-man DC squad with one power sword, one thunder hammer, and the rest bolt pistol/chainsword (I can't yet bring my self to snap off arms to replace with bolters).

That's 65 attacks with just chainswords if I get the +1 attack power off.
130 if I attack twice.

That most likely wipes whatever it was you initially charged and then some. The risk is well worth the reward.
Forget the command reroll. 1 strategem per phase

 

No. The same stratagem only once per phase. You can use however many different stratagems per phase you want as long as you have enough points left. ;)


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Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.

 

So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

 

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#16
Dolchiate Remembrancer

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You've still got to roll over nine. Granted it's easier to do but you will fail from time to time. IIMO this stratagem is nought more than a gimmick and shouldn't be relied on sad.png


True but with command re-rolls and/or Lemartes you just keep increasing the chances. I'll have to practice it of course but the payoff is worth it. I run a 15-man DC squad with one power sword, one thunder hammer, and the rest bolt pistol/chainsword (I can't yet bring my self to snap off arms to replace with bolters).

That's 65 attacks with just chainswords if I get the +1 attack power off.
130 if I attack twice.

That most likely wipes whatever it was you initially charged and then some. The risk is well worth the reward.
Forget the command reroll. 1 strategem per phase
No. The same stratagem only once per phase. You can use however many different stratagems per phase you want as long as you have enough points left. ;)
Thanks for the correction!

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#17
Panda_Saurus_Rex

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... and how much CP is that all together you've thrown on one squad of DC which has no guarantee of making that 9" charge? This is a lot of eggs in one basket for something which will go wrong from time to time sad.png


Ah, ninja'd with Lemartes. Seems like we're being pigeonholded now sad.png

 

 

That would be my only hesitation. If I do it the way I mentioned above that's 6 command points. I'll have to test it out but I'm DEFINITELY going to try it a couple of times before I decide if it's really worth it.



#18
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... and how much CP is that all together you've thrown on one squad of DC which has no guarantee of making that 9" charge? This is a lot of eggs in one basket for something which will go wrong from time to time sad.png


Ah, ninja'd with Lemartes. Seems like we're being pigeonholded now sad.png

Well it's melee. What did you expect. The risk will always be a lot higher than with a shooting unit for about the same return (at best). ^^


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.

 

So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

 

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#19
Panda_Saurus_Rex

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You've still got to roll over nine. Granted it's easier to do but you will fail from time to time. IIMO this stratagem is nought more than a gimmick and shouldn't be relied on sad.png



True but with command re-rolls and/or Lemartes you just keep increasing the chances. I'll have to practice it of course but the payoff is worth it. I run a 15-man DC squad with one power sword, one thunder hammer, and the rest bolt pistol/chainsword (I can't yet bring my self to snap off arms to replace with bolters).

That's 65 attacks with just chainswords if I get the +1 attack power off.
130 if I attack twice.

That most likely wipes whatever it was you initially charged and then some. The risk is well worth the reward.
Forget the command reroll. 1 strategem per phase

 

 

 

I can still use a command point to re-roll a charge, it isn't a strategem.


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#20
Dolchiate Remembrancer

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... and how much CP is that all together you've thrown on one squad of DC which has no guarantee of making that 9" charge? This is a lot of eggs in one basket for something which will go wrong from time to time sad.png

Ah, ninja'd with Lemartes. Seems like we're being pigeonholded now sad.png

Well it's melee. What did you expect. The risk will always be a lot higher than with a shooting unit for about the same return (at best). ^^
I expected to be able to put a lot of pressure on my opponents and have some of those pressure units make the charge. Not just 1 that will die the next turn and can be planned for.

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#21
Pendent

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We seriously aren't being pigeonhold at all. Sanguinary Guard with Sanguinary Priest who has the Angel's Wing has a really good chance of making their assault. Death Company are probably better off using the strategem that gives an insane 24" of movement on the first turn but they're perfectly viable to deepstrike with Lemartes if you really want. Our psykers of any type are going to be all over the table tying stuff up.

Edit: This is driving me insane. GW have given us exactly what we were asking for with multiple tools to get into assault and I'm still hearing the exact same complaints that people were making before the codex.


Edited by Pendent, 02 December 2017 - 01:54 PM.

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#22
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We seriously aren't being pigeonhold at all. Sanguinary Guard with Sanguinary Priest who has the Angel's Wing has a really good chance of making their assault. Death Company are probably better off using the strategem that gives an insane 24" of movement on the first turn but they're perfectly viable to deepstrike with Lemartes if you really want. Our psykers of any type are going to be all over the table tying stuff up.

Do the math. Thats a lot of points and maybe 4CP? Your going to need other stuff on the field.

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#23
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So the list I've been running lately is:

Battalion
Capt - JP, plasma pistol, relic blade
Sang Priest - JP, chainsword, bolt pistol

Scouts (X5) - camo cloak, boltguns, ML
Tac Squad (X5) - boltguns, ML
Tac Squad (X5) - boltguns, ML

Dev Squad (X6) - lascannons, armor cherub
Dev Squad (X6) - lascannons, armor cherub

Battalion
Capt - JP, TH/SS
Libby - JP, plasma pistol, force sword

Scouts (X5) - camo cloak, boltguns, ML
Tac Squad (X5) - boltguns, ML
Tac Squad (X5) - boltguns, ML

Death Company (X15) - JP, power sword, TH

Assault Squad (X5) - JP, melta gun X1
Assault Squad (X5) - JP, melta gun X1
Assault Squad (X5) - JP, melta gun X1


 

 

I have always used the Death Company as a sacrifice unit because they get targeted out anyways. They are going to die and there isn't anything I can do about it. I'd much rather spend the CP to give me greater chances of them really doing work BEFORE they die which is the point. I have plenty of backup in shooting and other dudes to take objectives and provide fire support.

I honestly didn't expect this much poo-poo'ing already. I think we got some pretty powerful stuff in the codex and I for one am very excited to use them.

 


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#24
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We seriously aren't being pigeonhold at all. Sanguinary Guard with Sanguinary Priest who has the Angel's Wing has a really good chance of making their assault. Death Company are probably better off using the strategem that gives an insane 24" of movement on the first turn but they're perfectly viable to deepstrike with Lemartes if you really want. Our psykers of any type are going to be all over the table tying stuff up.

Do the math. Thats a lot of points and maybe 4CP? Your going to need other stuff on the field.

 

Yes, obviously a single unit is never going to win a game and needs to be supported. A Sanguinary Guard Squad with the Priest is pretty affordable though considering how much pain it can put out. Death Company take a bit more investment to get a good return but are scarier than they've ever been given the Red Thirst and if you can deploy them well have a good chance of making that investment pay off. With Lemartes you can almost guarantee making first turn charges with them if you want.

It's perfectly reasonable to hit somebody's lines turn 1 with that SG squad, a DC squad and a Librarian Dread and with even reasonable dice you've just punched a huge hole in your opponent's army. I prefer a more combined arms approach but if you want to go pure assault the tools are all there.


Edited by Pendent, 02 December 2017 - 02:00 PM.

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#25
sfPanzer

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You've still got to roll over nine. Granted it's easier to do but you will fail from time to time. IIMO this stratagem is nought more than a gimmick and shouldn't be relied on sad.png



True but with command re-rolls and/or Lemartes you just keep increasing the chances. I'll have to practice it of course but the payoff is worth it. I run a 15-man DC squad with one power sword, one thunder hammer, and the rest bolt pistol/chainsword (I can't yet bring my self to snap off arms to replace with bolters).

That's 65 attacks with just chainswords if I get the +1 attack power off.
130 if I attack twice.

That most likely wipes whatever it was you initially charged and then some. The risk is well worth the reward.
Forget the command reroll. 1 strategem per phase

 

 

 

I can still use a command point to re-roll a charge, it isn't a strategem.

 

lol of course that's a stratagem. It's the BRB one. :D


Disclaimer:

If my posts appear rude to you, I apologize. It's not meant to be rude in any way, it's just the way folks are in my country. It's really more about being direct than being rude. I know how it's perceived in the english speaking community and I already try to tone it down but I barely notice when it's too much since it's normal for me.

 

So yeah, I'm really not rude it's basically just cultural differences that act against me here. Again, I apologize.

 

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