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How would Sanguinius's return be explained?


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#76
DuskRaider

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Dark Imperium is a joke of a plot and novel too, so... 


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#77
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It's the most up-to-date canon and a great story.

Edit: Typo

Edited by Ishagu, 07 December 2017 - 10:24 AM.

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#78
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We'll leave that to opinion, quality-wise.


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#79
Lexington

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That isnt completely true either... he was placed in stasis on the point of death, which could mean just after or just before. Heck, it could even mean when they realised he couldnt be saved normally but might live another few hours under normal circumstances. Either could be a valid interpretation.

Nah - he's specifically referred to as a "corpse" in a sidebar in the 2nd Ed Ultramarines Codex, and there's talk about his "death wounds." It's not extremely specific about anything (the aside's more about the Shrine of the Primarch), but it's pretty clear that Guilliman is not among the living. Things change, and it's close enough to not be a huge retcon, but a retcon it was.


Edited by Lexington, 08 December 2017 - 03:50 AM.

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#80
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Yeah, that was the 2nd edition codex. The wording was changed and it became a lot more ambiguous and open to interpretation after that.

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#81
Bulwyf

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There has always been an in universe non McGuffin way to bring back the dead primarchs. The warp allows people in the material universe to summon demons/demon princes etc. by ritual and belief. This same principle applies to the Imperium. You just need people with enough faith and some kind of summoning/prayer ritual to bring them back. Think of them as angels instead of demons.

 

We've even seen some of this in the books. When the Big E needs help in the book "Master of Mankind" he summons help from the warp and you see the ghost of Ferrus Manus help him out. Since Sangy's body has been preserved in stasis it would make it even easier to summon his spirit back to come back into his body.


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#82
Knight of the Raven

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Bringing back a primarch through the prayer given to the God-Emperor is certainly safer and less prone to nasty surprises than through... the other way.

 

"So, we have nearly completed the ritual to return our noble father!"

 

"Did it have to include blood sacrifice?"

 

"I'm afraid so. I fear anything less won't be able to restore a shattered soul."

 

"Cleaning all this blood off my armor will take weeks."

 

"It'll be worth it, brother."

 

"And that shade of red seriously clashes with my cooking mittens."

 

"Shush! The primarch is rising!"

 

"I'm Horus. Bow before me mortals, and despair!"

 

"What?"

 

"I mean I'm Sanguinius. Totally totes."

 

"Of course. My Lyman's Ear has been playing up all month."


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#83
Irbis

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But Sanguinius' death (along with Ferrus, Curze & Horus) should be final. 

 

You are aware not one but two of these ships sailed years ago? whistlingW.gif

 

Three if we count the fact Kurze's 'death' was kept deliberately vague and his current character arc in Ruinstorm points at him slowly accepting the fact the future can be changed and he might yet try something clever to try and throw a spanner in the works?

 

Really, I'd like Khan or Vulkan to come back first, but I won't be throwing tantrums if GW writers will go for some 'clever' plot twist. It's far more sensible position than clinging to your headcanon when it was entirely invalidated long ago then complaining the newest developments ignored it.



#84
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So you count clones now? Horus' clone was a pale imitation of the original Primarch.

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#85
Urriak Urruk

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Dark Imperium categorically states that the Emperor is still alive on the Throne, and his psychic might is far greater than it was during the Heresy. Guilliman was subjected to the Emperor "communicating" with him and it nearly killed him.

This isn't up for debate. He's still powering the Astronomicon.

 

In Vaults of Terra the Inquisition is freaking out over the Imperial Throne breaking, so much so they attempt assistance with xenos. So... fluff seems very scattered on the Emperor's status.


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#86
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If/when the Emperor dies/ascends you can be sure GW will leverage the event.

I'm firmly in the he still exists in the material.

Is there a growing distinct warp presence? I hope so...

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#87
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But Sanguinius' death (along with Ferrus, Curze & Horus) should be final.


You are aware not one but two of these ships sailed years ago? whistlingW.gif

Three if we count the fact Kurze's 'death' was kept deliberately vague and his current character arc in Ruinstorm points at him slowly accepting the fact the future can be changed and he might yet try something clever to try and throw a spanner in the works?

Really, I'd like Khan or Vulkan to come back first, but I won't be throwing tantrums if GW writers will go for some 'clever' plot twist. It's far more sensible position than clinging to your headcanon when it was entirely invalidated long ago then complaining the newest developments ignored it.

Huh? Kurze is dead, we see that in the Nightlord Series.

Did I miss something for Ferrus?

Horus has always had the clone story (a clone is a clone...)

So no, other than the hideous Vulkan arc, what has changed?

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#88
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Dark Imperium categorically states that the Emperor is still alive on the Throne, and his psychic might is far greater than it was during the Heresy. Guilliman was subjected to the Emperor "communicating" with him and it nearly killed him.

This isn't up for debate. He's still powering the Astronomicon.

 

In Vaults of Terra the Inquisition is freaking out over the Imperial Throne breaking, so much so they attempt assistance with xenos. So... fluff seems very scattered on the Emperor's status.

 

Oh, it's definitely breaking, and things aren't looking good for him...but he is still alive. And laughably powerful.



#89
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But Sanguinius' death (along with Ferrus, Curze & Horus) should be final. 

 

You are aware not one but two of these ships sailed years ago? whistlingW.gif

 

Three if we count the fact Kurze's 'death' was kept deliberately vague and his current character arc in Ruinstorm points at him slowly accepting the fact the future can be changed and he might yet try something clever to try and throw a spanner in the works?

 

Really, I'd like Khan or Vulkan to come back first, but I won't be throwing tantrums if GW writers will go for some 'clever' plot twist. It's far more sensible position than clinging to your headcanon when it was entirely invalidated long ago then complaining the newest developments ignored it.

 

 

Nope, Curze is definitely dead. Numerous books have specifically mentioned his corpse, the Night Lord trilogy in particular. Hell, in the Night Lord trilogy the main characters title is specifically referring to how he reacts to the death of the Night Haunter. Curze can't be retconned without seriously invalidating basically every bit of info about what happened with the Legion post-Heresy. Not to mention that Curze avoiding his punishment goes against his entire ethos. It's not that he's trying to avoid his fate, it's that he's trying to prove that he's correct, that the only punishment for crimes is death, that the Emperor was no better than he was. After all, death is nothing compared to vindication.

 

Also, are you trying to imply Horus ain't dead? Sure, he got cloned by Fabius, but the clones, and all his research, got annihilated by the proto-Black Legion.


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#90
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Yeah, these guys are making stuff up to support their destruction of established lore. Ferrus is dead. Curze is dead. Horus is dead. Sanguinius is dead.

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#91
Knight of the Raven

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Ferrus is dead.

Yes, he is. But there's this little bit in Hand of Justice, the old Index Astartes article about the Iron Hands...

 

They perceive weakness in everything around them, and prepare for the day when Ferrus will at last return to them; that time when they will stand firm with their Primarch in the final reunification of Mankind.

According to their Scriptures, the moment the Emperor fell, the psychic shockwave was felt with such intensity that it reached Ferrus, even though he had left the realm of Man. An image of Ferrus appeared before his Legion, and his anguish and despair were unimaginable. It is said that this apparition spole of his fears for Mankind. He spoke of a great calamity, a darkness that would assail humanity at some unforeseen moment in the future and his promise that he would be there to lead humanity through its trials of darkness. Amongst the Iron Hands it it taught that he ascended to an unearthly paradise where he fights eternally, becoming ever stronger. And so it is said that Ferrus Manus left the world of Man, preparing for the time he is required again, that Time of Darkness when his light is needed most of all.

Nothing proves this apparition is indeed Ferrus Manus, the Warp and the Ruinous Powers inhabiting it being what they are, but there are foundations for his return, however outdated they may be.

 

I'd like to thank Deus Ex Ferrum for bringing this moment to my attention in some of his posts.


Edited by Knight of the Raven, 12 December 2017 - 12:54 AM.


#92
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That’s a terrible paradise if he’s gotta fight the whole time.

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#93
Knight of the Raven

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"Paradise is different for a krogan Iron Hand."



#94
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That’s a terrible paradise if he’s gotta fight the whole time.

 

I don't know why, but I think that the Iron Hands have a very different definition of paradise than you and I do.


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#95
Urriak Urruk

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Dark Imperium categorically states that the Emperor is still alive on the Throne, and his psychic might is far greater than it was during the Heresy. Guilliman was subjected to the Emperor "communicating" with him and it nearly killed him.

This isn't up for debate. He's still powering the Astronomicon.

 

In Vaults of Terra the Inquisition is freaking out over the Imperial Throne breaking, so much so they attempt assistance with xenos. So... fluff seems very scattered on the Emperor's status.

 

Oh, it's definitely breaking, and things aren't looking good for him...but he is still alive. And laughably powerful.

 

 

You would think priority #1 for Guilliman is "fix dad's chair," but I don't think it's even gotten a mention.



#96
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Regarding Sanguinius, fluff has characters feeling the psychic backlash from Horus killing him with the Talon. My gut says you can't fake the Warp effect of a Primarch's death.

#97
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Ferrus is dead.

Yes, he is. But there's this little bit in Hand of Justice, the old Index Astartes article about the Iron Hands...

They perceive weakness in everything around them, and prepare for the day when Ferrus will at last return to them; that time when they will stand firm with their Primarch in the final reunification of Mankind.

According to their Scriptures, the moment the Emperor fell, the psychic shockwave was felt with such intensity that it reached Ferrus, even though he had left the realm of Man. An image of Ferrus appeared before his Legion, and his anguish and despair were unimaginable. It is said that this apparition spole of his fears for Mankind. He spoke of a great calamity, a darkness that would assail humanity at some unforeseen moment in the future and his promise that he would be there to lead humanity through its trials of darkness. Amongst the Iron Hands it it taught that he ascended to an unearthly paradise where he fights eternally, becoming ever stronger. And so it is said that Ferrus Manus left the world of Man, preparing for the time he is required again, that Time of Darkness when his light is needed most of all.

Nothing proves this apparition is indeed Ferrus Manus, the Warp and the Ruinous Powers inhabiting it being what they are, but there are foundations for his return, however outdated they may be.

I'd like to thank Deus Ex Ferrum for bringing this moment to my attention in some of his posts.


Man....maybe that's the firetide.

#98
Triszin

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that'd be dope.

 

I'b be fine with Ferrus coming back as an Greater Empyrean


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#99
Kinstryfe

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Regarding Sanguinius, fluff has characters feeling the psychic backlash from Horus killing him with the Talon. My gut says you can't fake the Warp effect of a Primarch's death.


The cheap way for them out of the problem of Sanguinius being dead is to pull a Guilliman. He wasn't completely dead, he's in status basically exsanguinated, and his torment transcends the stasis. His sons experiencing his death is a side effect of their psychic link crying out for help. Cheesy, yes, but no more so than many other 40k things.
Alternate way out of it: the Alphas have shown ability to basically transform legionaries into copies of their Primarchs using Primarch blood. May be a thing specific to the XXth, or may be common to Astartes. Since BAs get a very watered down dose of Sanguinius' blood, maybe eventually one gets basically "possessed" by a "reborn" Sanguinius.

Not saying these would be /good/ ideas, but they're the kinds of things I could see GW having come to pass, because eventually the allure of molding their own money will probably be more than they can ignore.

#100
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If they wanted to pursue the Christian themes of the BA to their logical conclusion, Sanguinius resurrecting would actually seem almost inevitable.

 

I suppose the Horus Heresy series will dictate how likely such a thing is, depending on how Sanguinius' death is portrayed. Having said that, there's scenes in ADB's Black Legion series indicating that the Talon of Horus is soaked with the psychic residue of Sanguinius' death, to the point that Khayon is disturbed simply being in its presence.

 

I do like the idea that the Sanguinor (sp?) or whatever it is is some sort of manifestation of Sanguinius. I could see if they wanted to go that route, GW could release an updated model and rules making it a bit more Primarch-esque in size and abilities.






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