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How are you outfitting and supporting you PM's?

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#26
A Kvlt Ghost

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Anyone used plague spewers on their plague marines?

 

I'm pretty certain absolutely nobody has done this. I'd like the plaguebelcher to be a good option for a melee squad, but I can't see any argument for taking it over the blight launcher. I really love the look of the big version, though - I bought an extra body on ebay so I could make a guy carrying one. Looking forward to painting him. I'll never put him on a gaming table.


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#27
BlackTriton

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I see lots of guys taking the axes/knife for melee plague marine.

however, it seems to me that a flails simply out perform 2 axes in any circumstances.

assuming you want to invest 20 points in melee weapon for you PM, and that ones field a 7 man squads:

 

With 2 flails, you will average 4 hit, where you are guaranty 8 hit with 4 axes.

Flails hit are ST 6 vs the axe ST 5, will make a big difference vs light infantry, may help with light vehicle but will not help you against most heavy infantry. Both are great if you planned to use Veteran of the long war and/or blade of putrefaction.

Both have the same -2 AP, as usual, good against any low armor target of invuln save target.

The axes will forces more armor roll, so more chances to get at least 1 through? however, both have the same amount of average wounds, with the flails having the better high roll of 12W. Since Flails wounds are carried over the D2 stat is never wasted.

 

so, for the same amount of point you get usually the same average damage with a chance for a high (and low) roll. on average roll, the flails always outperform or is equivalent to its point in axes. however, the most important point are the 2 marines that are "freed" from having an ax and can each add 2 knife attack or carry a bolter! they can act as ablative wounds for the unit or be given axes if you wish. 

For me, unless you really hate d3 weapon, the flails seems like the oblivious choice until you maxed them out.

 

Note that this is all MatHammer theories, I look foward to see how it works out in game. 


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#28
Caldersson

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So I might be wrong but I thought PM were more of a med range unit (18 inches) than a melee unit.
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#29
Wolf Lord Loki

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So I might be wrong but I thought PM were more of a med range unit (18 inches) than a melee unit.


Id say they arent. They need that range boost to be a threat as they advance. PM are relatively slow and if they didnt that the increased range people would just run rings around them.

Like i said previously i think our tallents lay in causing mortal wounds just by standing next to the enemy!
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#30
Caldersson

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Except couldn't the enemy simply outpace us and pick away since we are slower. Getting into melee would be rather difficult since we are slower.

IDK I am just a novice player. I only played a game against UM Primaris and that is exactly what they did.
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#31
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That's why we also have faster units like Mortarion, Bloat Drones, Plague Drones, Daemon Princes, and Blight Haulers as well as Deep Striking units. You can run, but we can catch you and you can't really hide either.


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#32
Wolf Lord Loki

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Yup! What Duskraider said!

Our fast units pen in the enemy while our plague marines steadily grind towards them.
Use fast and deepstrikers to box them in and then close in and share nurgles bounty with them!
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#33
BlackTriton

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Except couldn't the enemy simply outpace us and pick away since we are slower. Getting into melee would be rather difficult since we are slower.

IDK I am just a novice player. I only played a game against UM Primaris and that is exactly what they did.

I play mostly melee focus armies so my perception may be specific.

 

I expect my PM to be in melee at some point of every game. Either because the enemy is coming a me or because I am advancing toward an objective the enemy must hold.

 

I am currently experimenting with 7 man squad 2 plague launcher and 2 flails. idea is I can advance and shoot my plague launcher until I am in charge range. this also allow them to (kinda) keep up with Blight hauler 10'' move. 

 

Flexible unit tend to not be as competitive, but since I am inexorably advancing toward close range it makes sense to be ready for melee combat.

 

edit addition:

Im not yet sure if I want the 2 other PM to hold bolter or 2 knife.

Bolter are better any turn I dont advance, like in a turn I plan to charge.

Double knife gives you better sinergy with both Blade of putrefaction and Blight bombardment. Also dosent feel as bad to advance all the time.


Edited by BlackTriton, 07 December 2017 - 12:35 PM.


#34
Wayniac

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I think there are basically two schools of thought:

 

1) Take small cheap units with ranged weapons; so 5-man plasma or blight launcher squads, with plsama gun on the champion.  You rarely advance (maybe the Launcher squad) and are basically just fire support.

 

2) Take larger units and throw in some melee weapons e.g. flails, maybe axes if you have the points, and 2x blight launchers so you can go up the field to engage.

 

What I am interested in is the second one, as I think there might be some merit in a squad with 2x flails and 2x blight launchers, or if you want to go expensive then axes, 2x flails and 2x blight launchers, and either just advance them every turn or put them in a Rhino.  In this case you basically ignore the fact you have boltguns until you're close to the enemy, at which point you move forward, rapid fire the crap out of a target, and then charge in.  I'm not sure if going the more expensive route with axes is going to pay off (although it would look the coolest).  If you're going to advance,  I think you need a good number of models to alleviate the casualties you'll get, which is going close to the "gimmick" idea of a 20 strong blob for the blight bombardment, which I also think might be a bit of a trap.

 

This has me thinking, actually.  I was only focusing on doing #1, but if nothing else the idea of some form of #2 is appealing to me on some level.


Edited by Wayniac, 07 December 2017 - 01:12 PM.

- Wayne aka "Wayniac the Indecisive"


#35
BlackTriton

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Consider ''option 2'' this way:
With PM we have the unique option to take the 5man fireteam and tag 2 men with flails to it. For 54 point, 2 flails are in average better than 4 power axes, wich for any other army is a dedicated melee unit.
In theorie, this is a very good value proposition. It could perform well given the right environment and play style.

I still have no practical experience with it though, I will try it out this weekend in a small game, 500-700 points.
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#36
McElMcNinja

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I have been running a unit of 8 Plague Marines (3 plasma guns, 2 flails), a chaos lord, and a plague surgeon in a rhino. I move as close to the enemy as I can then use the smoke launcher and miasma of pestilence to make it -2 to hit. I also move my multi-melta/fist hellbrute along side it.

In my 4 games using this everyone has targeted the hellbrute with their heavy weapons and pretty much left the rhino alone. By turn 2 the rhino unloads, do my shooting and charge (rhino first). Hopefully I have successfully cast Blades of Putrification on the Marines and hit them with VotLW.

Charge the rhino first, followed by the Marines and characters. Between the rerolling to hit from the lord, wounding on a 2+ (rerolling 1's), and causing extra mortal wounds on 5+, nothing has survived.

2 games against tyrannids (1 pre codex, 1 post), 1 admech (w/codex), and 1 CSM (w/codex).
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#37
SkimaskMohawk

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Plague Marines are mid range. You can make them very melee oriented, but ultimately it's a terrible choice.

If youre taking a melee load out to be the locus of mortal wounds, there's more point efficient units like poxwalkers that want to be in combat and who actively benefit from typhus being in 7" anyways. They screen the rest of your forces to allow you to get things like plague casters and Marines in 18". Neither can be the focus for nurgles rot since it needs to be a character, so that's a moot point. So that's potentially 1 mortal wound from ambient sources at the cost of shooting...

Why? Why would you take the unit with the best potential for ranged special weapons and used it as a unit to pin others in melee and hope to generate 1 wound a unit. Other units can do that, for far cheaper, without giving up any ranged punch to do so.

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#38
Shockmaster

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I keep considering the idea of a monster hunting unit, not a competitive choice but could be fun(and look bad ass) against certain opponents.

 

Plague Champion with Power Fist & Plasma Pistol/Gun

2 x Plague Marines with Plasma Guns or Plague Spewers

2 x Plague Marines with Great Plague Cleaver(love these models so much)

2 x Plague Marines with Bubonic Axe & Mace of Contagion

 

Possibly stick them in a Rhino with a Tallyman for that failed hit roll re rolls bonus.


Edited by Shockmaster, 07 December 2017 - 03:15 PM.


#39
Wayniac

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Consider ''option 2'' this way:
With PM we have the unique option to take the 5man fireteam and tag 2 men with flails to it. For 54 point, 2 flails are in average better than 4 power axes, wich for any other army is a dedicated melee unit.
In theorie, this is a very good value proposition. It could perform well given the right environment and play style.

I still have no practical experience with it though, I will try it out this weekend in a small game, 500-700 points.

The only potential problem with this is a 5-man team with 2x specials, 2x flails and a champion (probably with plasma) is going to be losing expensive and useful models when it gets shot, versus chaff units.  Something to consider.  At that point you really want more than 5 guys if just to have some stock bolter guys to remove as casualties before you have to remove your flails (because let's be honest you would be removing them first to keep the squad's firepower going as long as possible).  There's a good chance your flail guys would end up being wasted points.

 

So if you're doing that, you'll want to go 7 guys IMHO.


Edited by Wayniac, 07 December 2017 - 03:25 PM.

- Wayne aka "Wayniac the Indecisive"


#40
BlackTriton

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You do need ablative wounds, true.
When I proposed to add 2 flails to your 5 man unit I meant to increase them to a 7 man unit, not to arm the 2 bolter guys. If 2 ablative wounds is enough for your 5 man squads, it should be enough for the hybrid one too.

To awnser SkimaskMohawk, the point is not to generate mortal wounds via lord of contagion.
The point is to take a special weapon team and add a melee capability to it, giving them sinergy with other assault and close range element without diminishing range firepower.
If the enemy is assault base, you have a counter assault option.
If they are shooty, assaulting them make them less of a threat. Plus they are sure to fall back so you can shoot again.
Worst case senario, you never get to assault and wasted 20 points in melee weapon. The ablative wounds for special weapon is always welcomed.

May I point out how cool it is that plague marine load out is a discution subject? I do love me some option.

Edited by BlackTriton, 07 December 2017 - 03:32 PM.

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#41
Caldersson

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So I am thinking 2 separate 7-man squads outfits

 

Squad 1:

Champion

2 Flails

2 Blight Launchers

2 Bolters (chaff)

 

Squad 2:

Champion

2 Plasma

4 bolters (chaff)

 

 

I thought about just making a big 20 man squad supported by a surgeon and just be a wrecking ball. to whatever comes around it. Then Poxwalkers as support. Have a Sorcerer perform that leap maneuver and get them up the field ASAP.


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#42
SkimaskMohawk

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Yea I failed to quote and answer in a timely manner, but it was directed towards wolf lord loki.

On a 7 man squad I'd highly agree on flails, just as an extra deterrent.

Also agree on loving the amount of options and build potential. Hate the kit for making it impossible to even make a baseline melee option, because I'd love to have one even if it's not the best use

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#43
BlackTriton

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Glad we agree SkimaskMohawk!

Caldersson: you squads look solid. I prefer 5 man squads for special weapon because everyrhing DeathGuard is so damn expensive!

I myself would like to try the 20 man blob. I feel you lose a lot of efficiency per points for some synergies. Also costly to collect the models!

Edited by BlackTriton, 07 December 2017 - 04:08 PM.


#44
Caldersson

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Glad we agree SkimaskMohawk!

Caldersson: you squads look solid. I prefer 5 man squads for special weapon because everyrhing DeathGuard is so damn expensive!

I myself would like to try the 20 man blob. I feel you lose a lot of efficiency per points for some synergies. Also costly to collect the models!

 

 

I plan on 3x 7 man squads of PM (I think that is also the most number of unique PM models there is also). Not sure what to do with the 3rd group, kind want to do melta's and use those grenade support elites as anti-vehicle  guys.


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#45
Wayniac

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I think a mix might work.  A fire support squad is kept small, 5 guys, 3x plasma.  Your mix squad is at minimum 7, 2x blight launchers, no plasma (champ w/PFist probably), 2x flails.  It advances up the field, either on foot or in a Rhino.  If you want to go balls to the wall you could take a bigger squad, say at least 14 guys, and add a bunch of axes too but I think that's a little much (would maybe work a few times though).  At the moment I'm thinking of the first idea, two squads, one 5-man plasma one 7-man blight launcher, and see how it goes.


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#46
BlackTriton

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Nice thing with the 7 man blight launcher is that if they advance they can keep up with the blight hauler giving them cover.
Bonus point if you take pox walker and blightbrigner!

#47
Caldersson

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Is there any place for meltas? I have a hard time trying to figure their use. Even in my SW army I find it difficult to justify them vs Plasma.
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#48
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Anyone used plague spewers on their plague marines?

 

I do. They're okay but overcosted if you're an efficiency fetishist with no sense of aesthetics.

 

For my tournament list I use 7 plague marines with power fist champion, icon of despair, 2 guys with knives, 2 flails and 2 plague spewers. In a rhino. They're kind of hit and miss but were worth having around.

 

I also use plague spewers on my 2 units of blightlords. The fact that they can't fire the plague spewer in the same turn they come down doesn't really matter that much because Alpha striking isn't blight lords' strength anyway.

 

Basically if you're using a rhino or teleporting anyway then the limited range doesn't matter. I also use a plasma gun unit and a blight launcher unit but they get out of their rhino the moment the threat of alpha strikes goes down.

 

 

 

I'm pretty certain absolutely nobody has done this.

 

whistling.gif

 

So I might be wrong but I thought PM were more of a med range unit (18 inches) than a melee unit.

 

Plague marines are in theory customisable into either a melee unit or a ranged one. The ranged one is better because ranged is better in 8th ed.

 

 

Plague Marines are mid range. You can make them very melee oriented, but ultimately it's a terrible choice.

If youre taking a melee load out to be the locus of mortal wounds, there's more point efficient units like poxwalkers that want to be in combat and who actively benefit from typhus being in 7" anyways.

 

You don't seem to be aware of Blades of Putrefaction. Lord of Contagion auras the joke among the DG mortal wound options (Typhus is good because he has other abilities).

 

Plague marines are a good melee unit. Blight Lords and Deathshroud are better but are also expensive.



#49
SkimaskMohawk

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Plague Marines are mid range. You can make them very melee oriented, but ultimately it's a terrible choice.

If youre taking a melee load out to be the locus of mortal wounds, there's more point efficient units like poxwalkers that want to be in combat and who actively benefit from typhus being in 7" anyways.

 

You don't seem to be aware of Blades of Putrefaction. Lord of Contagion auras the joke among the DG mortal wound options (Typhus is good because he has other abilities).

 

Plague marines are a good melee unit. Blight Lords and Deathshroud are better but are also expensive.

 

 

I'm very aware of it. But the question isn't really how much damage output can my 20 guys do with blades, it's how much can I get out of those ~470 points that I invested in 20 knife guys and a Sorcerer.

 

You could spend them on Mortarion. You lose out on 2 mortal wounds generated through To Wound rolls (you know, assuming you manage to get all 20 in range to attack which is pretty hard), but even without Mortarion's aura, he still comes out ahead in damage (using MEQ as a comparison). He's also faster, more durable, buffs units, is one drop, and takes a lot more wounds to modify damage output.

 

You could spend them on almost 4 (3.98) fully kitted out MSU 5man squads. You have a very respectable ranged threat with 8 Blight Launchers and 3/4 plasma guns depending on where you want to shave points from. You can start to put wounds out from 29" instead of 1". More drops though to be fair.

 

You could spend them on 6 Deathshroud and a Sorc. Once again you do less overall mortal wounds than the 20 knife guys with Blades, but more total damage. Also 2+ 4++, and character buffing.

 

I could go on, but the point is that the cheapest way to generate mortal wounds off of them, is still worse than other comparable melee units, or just other loadouts of Plague Marines


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