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Relationship between Roboute Guilliman and Lion El'Jonson


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#1
DogWelder

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Since there's a lot of talk about the Lion returning and how he would react to Guilliman basically running the Imperium I thought I would explore the roles of the two primarchs and how they compared with one another.

 

Personally I see Guilliman as a better strategist but the Lion as a better tactician.
 
The Lion was an extremely effective military commander and would utterly destroy any enemy he is set against with the maximum amount of force at his disposal. He sets himself up as the Emperor's 'firstborn'; his greatest general who will break any force that threatens his father's Imperium. His philosophy seems to be that the more brutal a campaign is, the quicker it will be. If he had to take a planet, he would utterly shatter its ability to resist by destroying its resources, its military and much of its infrastructure thereby forcing it to surrender quickly as it had no way of waging war any longer. A much faster process than what Guilliman would use.
 
On the other hand Guilliman is much more of a statesman, seeing war as simply an extension or part of empire-building, not an end in an of itself. In this way, he is an exception to his brothers as he doesn't see himself (or his sons) as a tool of war but someone who is meant to rule the part of the Imperium he rightfully built from scratch. He values victory, but firmly believes that a victory should serve the interests of the Imperium in the long run. Otherwise it is meaningless. If he had to take a planet, he would certainly keep in mind that this planet would be a future world of the Imperium and try to spare the infrastructure, resources and ruling class as they would allow for a much smoother transition with little waste.
 
I think Guilliman would be a much better fit for the overall strategist and ruler of the Imperium who oversees the multitude campaigns that stretches across multiple fronts. He would not only ensure that such a campaign has the necessary supplies, materials, weapons, ships, armor, soldiers etc. but also a vast manufacturing/recruiting base that constantly feeds it while also sustaining itself. Such as is the case for the 500 Worlds of Ultramar.
 
The Lion would be better at carrying out a single campaign much quicker than Guilliman (albeit more ruthlessly) so I would consider him a much better fit for Warmaster.

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#2
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It’s hard for me to really disagree with any of this. I know you’re well versed in the background and I feel I am as well, but that being said, I’m sure this will somehow become a contentious issue. Lol

#3
Marshal Rohr

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I hope the Imperium fractures into different kingdoms, with the Lion leading a conservative faction to maintain the Emperor as a figurehead and the autonomy of the marine chapters. Guilliman as the head of a reformist faction centered in the Galactic East on the Terran side of the great rift. The Lion wouldn't be inclined to just accept Guilliman as ruler, and hopefulyl that means civil war will ensue. 


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#4
Brother Arkley

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I hope the Imperium fractures into different kingdoms, with the Lion leading a conservative faction to maintain the Emperor as a figurehead and the autonomy of the marine chapters. Guilliman as the head of a reformist faction centered in the Galactic East on the Terran side of the great rift. The Lion wouldn't be inclined to just accept Guilliman as ruler, and hopefulyl that means civil war will ensue. 

 

Anything but this :(


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#5
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Would prefer the Lion walking up to his Brother knocking him on his can and then helping him up . Now Lets talk.


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#6
DogWelder

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I hope the Imperium fractures into different kingdoms, with the Lion leading a conservative faction to maintain the Emperor as a figurehead and the autonomy of the marine chapters. Guilliman as the head of a reformist faction centered in the Galactic East on the Terran side of the great rift. The Lion wouldn't be inclined to just accept Guilliman as ruler, and hopefulyl that means civil war will ensue. 

 

So kinda like the Dornian Heresy? In which Guilliman/the Ultramarines made an alliance between Ultramar and the Tau Empire and became a new state in an of itself?

 

That would be very...different but interesting. Since it would certainly break the 'united Imperium against chaos and xenos'.


Edited by DogWelder, 03 December 2017 - 05:10 PM.

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#7
Marshal Rohr

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An alliance with the Tau would make little sense, because the Tau would benefit from the Imperium being divided. A united Imperium could steam roll the entire Tau Empire, so they would encourage internecine Imperial conflict diplomatically. They'd supply weapons and tech to rebels inside Imperial territories, and capture and fortify border regions with human controlled space. Guilliman could certainly lead a detente, officially, with the Tau in the way he has with the Eldar. That would make sense both in universe, and out, as it gives players a chance to ally their space marines with aliens if they are part of Guilliman's faction. If Dorn was ever really supposed to come back, I can forsee him ruling the Segmentum Solar as a third faction. 


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#8
Bryan Blaire

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DogWelder, by your own statements, it sounds more like Guilliman is a better political and logistical strategist, and the Lion is the better battlefield/warfare strategist. I actually think that "on the ground", Guilliman would have been the better tactician - he would likely adapt on the fly rather than just bulldozing through as the Lion would likely do. The Lion seemed to have preferred to establish his strategy and then turn his men loose to execute as directed. Guilliman seems to have been more flexible in his execution, allowing commanders of forces to dictate new tactics as necessary while he did the same with the forces he commanded directly.

There's no such thing as a "better strategist" in a universal/overall capacity because different elements require different capacities, which the Primarchs definitely have. You can even break down battlefield/warfare strategist down to "Who would be better...?" at different types of warfare/battlefields.

The capacity concept is why the "What If..." universes are interesting, because each Primarch, while likely were somewhat encoded for certain methodologies, also developed different capacities based on their upbringings.

Ultimately I think the 40K galaxy would be better off leaving the concept of Warmaster behind completely and utilize a Council of Brothers for the Primarchs to determine which campaigns are best suited to the types of warfare they each excel in, and distribute responsibilities accordingly.
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#9
DogWelder

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DogWelder, by your own statements, it sounds more like Guilliman is a better political and logistical strategist, and the Lion is the better battlefield/warfare strategist. I actually think that "on the ground", Guilliman would have been the better tactician - he would likely adapt on the fly rather than just bulldozing through as the Lion would likely do. The Lion seemed to have preferred to establish his strategy and then turn his men loose to execute as directed. Guilliman seems to have been more flexible in his execution, allowing commanders of forces to dictate new tactics as necessary while he did the same with the forces he commanded directly.

There's no such thing as a "better strategist" in a universal/overall capacity because different elements require different capacities, which the Primarchs definitely have. You can even break down battlefield/warfare strategist down to "Who would be better...?" at different types of warfare/battlefields.

The capacity concept is why the "What If..." universes are interesting, because each Primarch, while likely were somewhat encoded for certain methodologies, also developed different capacities based on their upbringings.

Ultimately I think the 40K galaxy would be better off leaving the concept of Warmaster behind completely and utilize a Council of Brothers for the Primarchs to determine which campaigns are best suited to the types of warfare they each excel in, and distribute responsibilities accordingly.

 

To expand on what you've said, I'd say that Guilliman being in constant communication with his troops on the battlefield and micro-managing formations constantly for optimum effect while the Lion simply sets his men loose trusting that their perfect discipline will see them follow all of his orders through to the end fits nicely with their themes.

 

The Lion being a leader of Warrior-Knights who simply trusts in his men to achieve the objectives while he takes to the field himself and Guilliman being a more modern general who considers constant communication and direction of the battle to be his primary role with personal combat only necessary for the sake of morale. 


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#10
Urriak Urruk

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I agree completely with your original post. If the Emperor was writing his will and delegating responsibilities to people, Guilliman would be best suited as managing the Imperium's domestic/economic issues while the Lion is the general of the armies.

 

The problem with the Lion's return is that he doesn't view any of his brothers as superior to him, and might not even think any are his equal. So if he returns, he may very well see Guilliman's role as Imperial Regent essentially as replacing their father, which he would not be happy with.

 

It's essentially how Imperium Secundus worked. Sanguinius was the regent, Guilliman the architect, and the Lion the Lord Protector. Technically they were all equal, and it worked because everybody trusted/loved Sanguinius.

 

But in 40k, both Sangiunius and the Emperor are out of action. So I could very easily see the Lion acting independently of Guilliman, though rebelling outright is probably too far.



#11
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DogWelder, by your own statements, it sounds more like Guilliman is a better political and logistical strategist, and the Lion is the better battlefield/warfare strategist. I actually think that "on the ground", Guilliman would have been the better tactician - he would likely adapt on the fly rather than just bulldozing through as the Lion would likely do. The Lion seemed to have preferred to establish his strategy and then turn his men loose to execute as directed. Guilliman seems to have been more flexible in his execution, allowing commanders of forces to dictate new tactics as necessary while he did the same with the forces he commanded directly.

Actually this is in complete opposition to established fluff...

 

 
The His philosophy seems to be that the more brutal a campaign is, the quicker it will be. If he had to take a planet, he would utterly shatter its ability to resist by destroying its resources, its military and much of its infrastructure thereby forcing it to surrender quickly as it had no way of waging war any longer. A much faster process than what Guilliman would use.

Can I get sources for that? Because I think you might be mistaking Lion with Perturabo or Mortarion.


Edited by rendingon1+, 03 December 2017 - 09:18 PM.


#12
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The Lion has problem connecting with mankind and has problem with interaction with mortals.

Guilliman is too much of an idealist, he would struggle with being in command if he feels like he is being a tyrant.

 

Like the the Unremembered Empire they would need a 3rd party to prevent them from getting in each other's way.


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#13
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#14
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Guilliman is a more compassionate leader but not someone who would struggle with a more brutal course of action.
He did reduce Monarchia - the perfect city in Lorgar's eyes - to ash, for example.

I don't think the Lion would conquer quicker either. The XIIIth were the most successful Legion in terms of bringing planets into compliance alongside the Sons of Horus.
Guilliman would crush opposition but is also open to dialogue and negotiation. He would be outright superior to the Lion in this regard.

Also, saying that RG is best in an economic or managerial position is really selling him short. His greatest talent has always been war - the books stress this. Upon his return he launched the biggest Crusade since the Horus Heresy and has been destroying anything that opposes him for over a century.

The Lion is a fascinating character. He was secretive, proud, difficult. On paper he sounds like someone the Dark Gods would target to turn to their cause but he was a staunch defender of the Imperium.
In terms of planning and discipline on the battlefield his forces were without equal.

He's had many difficult situations with Guilliman precisely because he does things his own way, and that has strained their relationship.
The two respect each other, however. There is no real animosity, just a lack of reliance on each other.

Edited by Ishagu, 04 December 2017 - 12:00 AM.

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#15
DogWelder

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He's had many difficult situations with Guilliman precisely because he does things his own way, and that has strained their relationship.
The two respect each other, however. There is no real animosity, just a lack of reliance on each other.

 

The whole 'no animosity' is contrasted by the fact that each of them basically goes "yeah, take that you dork" in their internal monologue whenever they hear about each other being faced with a setback in the Imperium Secundus books. 


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#16
ronin_cse

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I hope the Imperium fractures into different kingdoms, with the Lion leading a conservative faction to maintain the Emperor as a figurehead and the autonomy of the marine chapters. Guilliman as the head of a reformist faction centered in the Galactic East on the Terran side of the great rift. The Lion wouldn't be inclined to just accept Guilliman as ruler, and hopefulyl that means civil war will ensue. 

 

I keep seeing people suggest this and I just have to ask: why would the Lion be the one to be upset about the changes Guilliman? If anything The Lion was far less conservative during 30k, going so far as to use an ancient Xeno machine/AI to achieve his goals AND he "died" before the legions were split up so there is no reason for him to maintain the chapters. I just absolutely don't see it.


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#17
Marshal Rohr

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Conservative as in defend the status quo in governance that keeps him unchallenged by any save Guilliman, and not subordinate his legion command structure through the inner circles of the successors to whatever new structure Guilliman is imposing on the Imperium that has yet to be revealed. The Lion’s personal ambiguity towards seeking an advantage even if it’s Xenos tech indicates he is a realist.
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#18
karden00

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What's the old adage? 
 

Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics. 

 

 

 

Guilliman is a more compassionate leader but not someone who would struggle with a more brutal course of action.
He did reduce Monarchia - the perfect city in Lorgar's eyes - to ash, for example.

I don't think the Lion would conquer quicker either. The XIIIth were the most successful Legion in terms of bringing planets into compliance alongside the Sons of Horus.
Guilliman would crush opposition but is also open to dialogue and negotiation. He would be outright superior to the Lion in this regard.

Also, saying that RG is best in an economic or managerial position is really selling him short. His greatest talent has always been war - the books stress this. Upon his return he launched the biggest Crusade since the Horus Heresy and has been destroying anything that opposes him for over a century.

The Lion is a fascinating character. He was secretive, proud, difficult. On paper he sounds like someone the Dark Gods would target to turn to their cause but he was a staunch defender of the Imperium.
In terms of planning and discipline on the battlefield his forces were without equal.

He's had many difficult situations with Guilliman precisely because he does things his own way, and that has strained their relationship.
The two respect each other, however. There is no real animosity, just a lack of reliance on each other.

 Ever since 2nd ed. codex. We need you, Legatus. 

 

What's the old adage? 

 

Amateurs study tactics. Professionals study logistics. 

 

I've enjoyed a lot of what BL has done to fill out the character of my Chapter/Legion, but anyone that has been close attention for long enough has always scratched their head at how Guilliman is often portrayed as someone whose talents in statecraft and empire-building seem to be portrayed (at times - not every time) as something that come at the expense of him being a general/tactician/strategist of the highest order. 

Perhaps in publications, the 'builder' side of Guilliman was stressed in order to give him another angle/depth, which is great, but it has undeniably led to the misconception that, as Corax alluded to, "Guilliman was amazing at war, but somewhat less so in battle." 


'Lorgar has his own battles to fight, Erebus,' replied Horus sharply. 'Should he fail at Calth, all this will be for nothing if Guilliman's Legion is allowed to intervene.
You can always ally the Dark Angels to your current ultramarine force.
Never.
My Ultramarines aren't taking the field with traitors.
That's what Dark Vengeance is. A box of traitors.

 

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#19
Bryan Blaire

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Actually this is in complete opposition to established fluff...


In what way and where, rendington? It's basically the entire point behind his "feud" with Russ.
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#20
DogWelder

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Guilliman's conversation with his 'mother' about the Lion offers a mortal's insight:

 

‘Do I need to say it?’ she said, standing up.
 
‘No,’ Guilliman replied. He looked away and then back at her. ‘I do not think the Lion is an ally.’
 
‘I see.’ Euten rubbed her nose and pulled out a pair of black gloves from the pockets of her coat. She spoke as she slipped them on. ‘You cannot trust him. He likes his secrets. He has lied to you more than once.”
 
'No man has a good enough memory to be a successful liar.’
 
‘But I thought that primarchs remembered everything.’
 
‘I take your point.’
 
‘He is also a character of action,’ she continued, turning to take up her staff. With slow paces she approached, her expression stern. ‘He excels at adaptation, the emergent strategist. Oh, he plans well enough, but it is determination that sees him to his greatest success. A determination to overcome everything set against him, despite the odds or the price.
 
'Give me six hours to build a tower and I will spend the first four measuring bricks.’ Guilliman smiled, but his humour quickly faded. ‘I have spent many hours building Imperium Secundus, but he will wreck it in the next five minutes. We have only just begun what we need to do here. Long on the theoretical, short on the practical.’
 
- From: 'Angels of Caliban'

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#21
Claws and Effect

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I think in the short term both would just be happy they have a brother alive and active.

Any friction between the two would come later, after they start remembering how different their philosophy is.

#22
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Guilliman's conversation with his 'mother' about the Lion offers a mortal's insight:

 

‘Do I need to say it?’ she said, standing up.
 
‘No,’ Guilliman replied. He looked away and then back at her. ‘I do not think the Lion is an ally.’
 
‘I see.’ Euten rubbed her nose and pulled out a pair of black gloves from the pockets of her coat. She spoke as she slipped them on. ‘You cannot trust him. He likes his secrets. He has lied to you more than once.”
 
'No man has a good enough memory to be a successful liar.’
 
‘But I thought that primarchs remembered everything.’
 
‘I take your point.’
 
‘He is also a character of action,’ she continued, turning to take up her staff. With slow paces she approached, her expression stern. ‘He excels at adaptation, the emergent strategist. Oh, he plans well enough, but it is determination that sees him to his greatest success. A determination to overcome everything set against him, despite the odds or the price.
 
'Give me six hours to build a tower and I will spend the first four measuring bricks.’ Guilliman smiled, but his humour quickly faded. ‘I have spent many hours building Imperium Secundus, but he will wreck it in the next five minutes. We have only just begun what we need to do here. Long on the theoretical, short on the practical.’
 
- From: 'Angels of Caliban'

 

Now, is that a proof for: ?

His philosophy seems to be that the more brutal a campaign is, the quicker it will be. If he had to take a planet, he would utterly shatter its ability to resist by destroying its resources, its military and much of its infrastructure thereby forcing it to surrender quickly as it had no way of waging war any longer. A much faster process than what Guilliman would use.

 

I don't think so.

 

 

Actually this is in complete opposition to established fluff...


In what way and where, rendington? It's basically the entire point behind his "feud" with Russ.

 

Wait, what was the point behind Lion-Russ feud? I am getting lost.


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#23
Grotsmasha

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Guilliman is a more compassionate leader but not someone who would struggle with a more brutal course of action.
He did reduce Monarchia - the perfect city in Lorgar's eyes - to ash, for example.
I don't think the Lion would conquer quicker either. The XIIIth were the most successful Legion in terms of bringing planets into compliance alongside the Sons of Horus.
Guilliman would crush opposition but is also open to dialogue and negotiation. He would be outright superior to the Lion in this regard.
Also, saying that RG is best in an economic or managerial position is really selling him short. His greatest talent has always been war - the books stress this. Upon his return he launched the biggest Crusade since the Horus Heresy and has been destroying anything that opposes him for over a century.
The Lion is a fascinating character. He was secretive, proud, difficult. On paper he sounds like someone the Dark Gods would target to turn to their cause but he was a staunch defender of the Imperium.
In terms of planning and discipline on the battlefield his forces were without equal.
He's had many difficult situations with Guilliman precisely because he does things his own way, and that has strained their relationship.
The two respect each other, however. There is no real animosity, just a lack of reliance on each other.

The Lion's Tactics would certainly ensure quicker "victories", as the Lion had the second most victories (not world's brought into the fold) in the crusade, second.d only to Horus despite being one of the last primarchs being found.

On topic, The Lion would not trust Guilliman, he trusts no one, a quirk of his upbringing, as he alone was not raised by people, but grew to maturity in the jungles of a death world. Trust did not exist. However, I don't believe he would turn from the Imperium, or even fight Guilliman for Regent.



.....besides, that chat he's going to have with Luther is going to take a while....

Edited by Grotsmasha, 04 December 2017 - 02:02 PM.

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#24
M@verik115

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Well look at it like this. The Lion never thought favourably of Guilliman, and during the Horus Heresy went so far as to call him several less palatable names... 


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#25
Ishagu

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Considering the chequered history of the Dark Angels and their shame, does anyone honestly think the Lion would openly oppose the Lord Protector of the Imperium?

Two Primarchs are better than one, and the Lion would be just as disgusted with the state of the Imperium as Guilliman was upon his awakening.

-~Ishagu~-





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