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Relationship between Roboute Guilliman and Lion El'Jonson


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#26
Bryan Blaire

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Considering the chequered history of the Dark Angels and their shame, does anyone honestly think the Lion would openly oppose the Lord Protector of the Imperium?

I think there’s a ton about the entire situation that depends heavily on exactly what meta-plot state GW brings the next Primarch out in. Folks are acting like the next Primarch to be released will just have omnipotent knowledge of what is going on across the whole galaxy immediately upon awakening. If the next Primarch is embroiled immediately in a war, they may not stop to ask a lot of questions until afterward, and may not like the answers they get.

Plus open conflict/opposition isn’t the only way the story can happen. Ignoring things may also take place.

Wait, what was the point behind Lion-Russ feud? I am getting lost.

That the Lion likes to set his strategy and have it executed. When Russ failed to uphold his part in the strategy, the Lion charged in and finished everything. Russ got angry about not being allowed to do what he had sworn to do, the Lion was ticked at Russ for failing to uphold the strategy, Russ punched the Lion and “fisticuffs” ensued. Feud.

Even more so, the quote by DogWelder illustrates almost exactly what I said. The Lion is better on the ground, strategizes, sends his men to do what he ordered, leads his force and will alter his strategy for his direct command units as the situation alters, and if things aren’t working, will pay the price in blood and will to see his plans through through sheer tenacity.
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#27
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Considering the chequered history of the Dark Angels and their shame, does anyone honestly think the Lion would openly oppose the Lord Protector of the Imperium?

Two Primarchs are better than one, and the Lion would be just as disgusted with the state of the Imperium as Guilliman was upon his awakening.

 

Yes, because the Ultramarines had people join the Warmaster, too. The Dark Angels aren't the only Legion who had traitors. Every legion did. He would openly oppose Guilliman trying to rule the Imperium (this would be time number three: Imperium Secundus, Scouring, and now this). The Lion would certainly be disgusted by the state of the Imperium, which is why he would hedge his bets and support the staus quo that leaves him tied for sharing the most powerful position in the Imperium. 


Edited by Marshal Rohr, 04 December 2017 - 02:58 PM.


#28
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On topic, The Lion would not trust Guilliman, he trusts no one, a quirk of his upbringing, as he alone was not raised by people, but grew to maturity in the jungles of a death world. Trust did not exist. However, I don't believe he would turn from the Imperium, or even fight Guilliman for Regent.



.....besides, that chat he's going to have with Luther is going to take a while....

Lion did not trust Guilliman because he knew that G will go seccesionist with his 500 worlds. Weak plot why IS secundus was founded aside but if I recall correctly even Malcador or Emp suspected that G will do it.

Lion was found as a boy not as an adult and I think he became distrustfull later in the GC when things with Terrans and Luther started.

#29
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Also worth considering what the audience with the Emperor will tell the Lion. It would be silly if he didnt talk to dad too.


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#30
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Considering the chequered history of the Dark Angels and their shame, does anyone honestly think the Lion would openly oppose the Lord Protector of the Imperium?

I'm not sure Lion "Loyalty is its own reward" El'jonson himself will be very pleased to learn his sons let the Imperium hanging every time they hear about the Fallen.

 

If I'm not mistaken, this is what he thought about the Emperor, Horus and Guilliman in The Primarchs;

There is only the Emperor, none is worthy of inheriting that mantle. I will ensure the Legiones Astartes destroy themselves before another matches the power upon Terra. That is true. Faced with the prospect of mutual annihilation, my brothers may come to terms. Horus will be forced to acknowledge the Emperor again, and Guilliman and the others will not usurp their true master.

I've not found the quote I was looking for through the search, but I believe he followed that up with "yes, even if it destroys my legion."

 

And he apparently wanted to be Warmaster in Horus' stead so much he stuck backroom deals with Perturabo, though I'm not sure how that works out with his title of Lord Protector of Imperium Secundus.

 

So unless the Emperor himself tells him to play nice, I can see the Lion being less than impressed with Guilliman, though I don't think to the point of starting a civil war.


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#31
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On Imperium secundus Guilliman try to avoid putting the Lion in charge because he always has his agenda first(his secrets), Rob could not trust him because he had a plan for Imperium secundus and the Lion deviating from the plan will waste all his effort, this is the only motive for him to not want the Lion in the chair, outside of that they have a good relation, each one admires and praise the other.

 

Guilliman did not want to seat on the throne of the Imperium Secundus just because declaring a new imperium in the time of the Heresy could be seen as he was doing the same as Horus if he put himself as regent of the Secundus, this is the only reason to be declare as the main figure. Here too is mention he feels others are not at his level(obviously) and this is a set back for him to delegate responsibility to others. Looks like he has learned from the past, as he did not try a smooth transition with the lords of terra, he just arrive and impose himself.



#32
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Whatever the Lion may be, he is no idiot. After reading through this thread, my idea of the Lion would be an immature baby that throws a fit if he can not have it his way, blinded by his own arrogance and his immesurable pride. Is that really who Lion is? I am asking more or less earnestly, because I did not read any HH books that really touch on the Lion. Because if that is who Lion is, then it would be better to let him sleep. An arrogant upstart is the last thing the Imperium needs right now.

 

I never got the image of Lion being like this though, from things I heard anyway. Problems to connect with people? Definitely. End justfy the means kind of guy? Yes. Prideful? Oh yes. But being to stuck up that he is incapable of seeing the current situation and act in his own way regardless of consequences? Probably not.

 

Besides, who said that Guilliman will not reevaluate the whole situation should the Lion wake up. He knows how well a singular leader worked the last time around. When G is the only one alive, then even the Lion would agree to let him rule. With more Primarchs coming back and being actually fit to rule, I do not see why Guilliman would not accommodate them. Lion would probably stay clear of politics anyway, so hand him the regiments and let him go punch Demons and do military stuff. Leave politics and logistics to G. Sounds like a solution both would be fine with.


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#33
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The Lion isn’t stupid enough to think for a minute that just being a general will protect him from Guilliman eventually trying to strip him of the power that makes him a possible contender to Guilliman’s supremacy.
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#34
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Does anyone think the Lion would be a better leader than Guilliman?

He was a fine contender for Warmaster, no doubt, but being in control of non military organisations?

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#35
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Does anyone think the Lion would be a better leader than Guilliman?

He was a fine contender for Warmaster, no doubt, but being in control of non military organisations?

 

Nope. And the Lion knows it too, hence in Secundus why he was the lord of the armed forces and Guilliman was the tax-man.

 

Ruinstorm has some good moments between the two and the events of that may mean they won't see each other again until after the siege of Terra is complete - of which we don't have much in the way of concrete information.

 

I think there'll be pleased to have one another, really. The new crusade means the Lion can probably go off and do as he pleases too and I don't think Guilliman will stop him from having a Legion sized force of successors as even he feels like the codex is outdated now.


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#36
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The Lion isn’t stupid enough to think for a minute that just being a general will protect him from Guilliman eventually trying to strip him of the power that makes him a possible contender to Guilliman’s supremacy.

 

Guilliman is no power-hungry tyrant. He cares for the Imperium. If he would try to strip Lion of his station, then the latter will have done something to deserve it. Wouldn't it be great if some Primarchs could have let go of their ego and pride? We might've never had the HH. It still makes me mad Oo


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#37
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The Lion isn’t stupid enough to think for a minute that just being a general will protect him from Guilliman eventually trying to strip him of the power that makes him a possible contender to Guilliman’s supremacy.

 

Guilliman is no power-hungry tyrant. He cares for the Imperium. If he would try to strip Lion of his station, then the latter will have done something to deserve it. Wouldn't it be great if some Primarchs could have let go of their ego and pride? We might've never had the HH. It still makes me mad Oo

 

 

'Wouldn't it be great if Alexander's Generals/Royal Heirs/Neighbors/Children on a Playground could let go of their pride and ego?'

 

I guess the Lion and Guilliman, even though every example of them before supports my theory the lack of trust is too great a hurdle, could potentially be the first two humans in history to not do what every other human in history would do. 



#38
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The Lion isn’t stupid enough to think for a minute that just being a general will protect him from Guilliman eventually trying to strip him of the power that makes him a possible contender to Guilliman’s supremacy.

 

Guilliman is no power-hungry tyrant. He cares for the Imperium. If he would try to strip Lion of his station, then the latter will have done something to deserve it. Wouldn't it be great if some Primarchs could have let go of their ego and pride? We might've never had the HH. It still makes me mad Oo

 

 

'Wouldn't it be great if Alexander's Generals/Royal Heirs/Neighbors/Children on a Playground could let go of their pride and ego?'

 

I guess the Lion and Guilliman, even though every example of them before supports my theory the lack of trust is too great a hurdle, could potentially be the first two humans in history to not do what every other human in history would do. 

 

 

Not every human being is a misanthropic arse, you know.


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#39
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Y’all realize these are fictional characters, right?

Sure, there’s base characterization, but if the folks at BL and GW tomorrow woke up and said “Guilliman is going to murder the entire 500 Worlds” or “The Lion is going to be able to organize masquerade balls and be on a philanthropic crusade against the Administratium”, those events would occur, regardless of whether the fans liked it or not.

These aren’t real people and are subject to the whims of the story, authors and IP owners.
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#40
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Right, which I have acknowledged. The question was what would likely happen, which is a hypothetical question, I answer hypothetically basing my response off historical and sociological trends in human behavior (which Primarchs have shown evidence of having turned up to 11, in spite of their supernatural creation). They could very well team up for some Games Workshop Avengers shenanigans. That’s more likely, obviously. But it wont feel as real.

Edited by Marshal Rohr, 05 December 2017 - 03:55 PM.


#41
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Does anyone think the Lion would be a better leader than Guilliman?

He was a fine contender for Warmaster, no doubt, but being in control of non military organisations?

 

Of course not, the Lion has no real experience in "ruling." The closest he came was to essentially being the militaristic "king-but-in-name" of Caliban, when prosecuting war against the beasts.

 

But that does not mean these two characters won't have conflicts of interest. For one thing, the Lion still thinks he was the best candidate for Warmaster, which in his eyes Horus' betrayal vindicated that opinion.

 

If the Lion returns, the only way I can see him fully integrated into the Imperium is if he's made Warmaster or some equivalent title, the head honcho of military affairs, just like in Secundus when he was Lord Protector.

 

Problem is, I'm not sure Rob will accommodate him. He may very well think he was doing a good job on his own and ceding so much control of the military to the Lion is a mistake, especially when you consider all the mistakes and deceit the Dark Angels made in the HH.

 

I do not think the DA under the Lion will rebel or turn to Chaos. I also don't think they are going to be fully integrated into Rob's order, and will instead prosecute war against humanity's enemies independently of the new Imperium, with plans to confront the power struggle after the current crisis is passed.



#42
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Does anyone think the Lion would be a better leader than Guilliman?

He was a fine contender for Warmaster, no doubt, but being in control of non military organisations?

 

Of course not, the Lion has no real experience in "ruling." The closest he came was to essentially being the militaristic "king-but-in-name" of Caliban, when prosecuting war against the beasts.

 

But that does not mean these two characters won't have conflicts of interest. For one thing, the Lion still thinks he was the best candidate for Warmaster, which in his eyes Horus' betrayal vindicated that opinion.

 

If the Lion returns, the only way I can see him fully integrated into the Imperium is if he's made Warmaster or some equivalent title, the head honcho of military affairs, just like in Secundus when he was Lord Protector.

 

Problem is, I'm not sure Rob will accommodate him. He may very well think he was doing a good job on his own and ceding so much control of the military to the Lion is a mistake, especially when you consider all the mistakes and deceit the Dark Angels made in the HH.

 

I do not think the DA under the Lion will rebel or turn to Chaos. I also don't think they are going to be fully integrated into Rob's order, and will instead prosecute war against humanity's enemies independently of the new Imperium, with plans to confront the power struggle after the current crisis is passed.

 

Generally speaking Lion was never a ruler, no primarch was except for Guilliman. In that regard he was special. Lion was a commander like majority of primarchs, who's sole purpose was to conquer worlds (Emperor's "secret plans" aside). I think no one in the right mind should discuss "Lion wants to be a new ruler" stuff because it is not a thing. Besides: "not sure Rob will accommodate him" is kind of funny. People tend to forget how censored.gif  large Imperium is. It's not Imperium Seundus - it's THE Imperium with milion of worlds. Do you really thing Guilliman takes care of every military problem in every part of Imperium himself? Sure as hell he doesn't. In fact I would expect RG to be quite happy that 1) one of his brothers is alive 2) he can share responsiblites of defending the Imperium with the other. And do you really belief that when/if Lion wakes up armies will not flock to his banner on themselves? Let's not forget that ALL primrchs are saints in the Creed.

 

Also...No one mentions DA turning renegade/Chaos. Do you really need to? rolleyesclean.gif



#43
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Does anyone think the Lion would be a better leader than Guilliman?

He was a fine contender for Warmaster, no doubt, but being in control of non military organisations?

 

Of course not, the Lion has no real experience in "ruling." The closest he came was to essentially being the militaristic "king-but-in-name" of Caliban, when prosecuting war against the beasts.

 

But that does not mean these two characters won't have conflicts of interest. For one thing, the Lion still thinks he was the best candidate for Warmaster, which in his eyes Horus' betrayal vindicated that opinion.

 

If the Lion returns, the only way I can see him fully integrated into the Imperium is if he's made Warmaster or some equivalent title, the head honcho of military affairs, just like in Secundus when he was Lord Protector.

 

Problem is, I'm not sure Rob will accommodate him. He may very well think he was doing a good job on his own and ceding so much control of the military to the Lion is a mistake, especially when you consider all the mistakes and deceit the Dark Angels made in the HH.

 

I do not think the DA under the Lion will rebel or turn to Chaos. I also don't think they are going to be fully integrated into Rob's order, and will instead prosecute war against humanity's enemies independently of the new Imperium, with plans to confront the power struggle after the current crisis is passed.

 

Generally speaking Lion was never a ruler, no primarch was except for Guilliman. In that regard he was special. Lion was a commander like majority of primarchs, who's sole purpose was to conquer worlds (Emperor's "secret plans" aside). I think no one in the right mind should discuss "Lion wants to be a new ruler" stuff because it is not a thing. Besides: "not sure Rob will accommodate him" is kind of funny. People tend to forget how censored.gif  large Imperium is. It's not Imperium Seundus - it's THE Imperium with milion of worlds. Do you really thing Guilliman takes care of every military problem in every part of Imperium himself? Sure as hell he doesn't. In fact I would expect RG to be quite happy that 1) one of his brothers is alive 2) he can share responsiblites of defending the Imperium with the other. And do you really belief that when/if Lion wakes up armies will not flock to his banner on themselves? Let's not forget that ALL primrchs are saints in the Creed.

 

Also...No one mentions DA turning renegade/Chaos. Do you really need to? rolleyesclean.gif

 

 

I'm just saying that I can't really visualize a situation where Rob and the Lion can come up with a mutually beneficial separation of power between the two of them.

 

I don't think Guilliman is willing to give up his position as Imperial Regent, or cede too much military control to the Lion. Same as I don't think the Lion will be comfortable with Rob being Regent or having anything less than the title of Warmaster/Lord Protector.

 

Sure the Imperium is big, but there still needs to be some sort of division of power between the two of them, otherwise it is a "Divided Empire" situation like Rome in the 3rd century. Even if they aren't at war, or even admit that the Imperium is split, they behave separately (a bit like how China and Taiwan both say they are the legitimate government of all of China, but behave like completely separate countries, without fighting).

 

In my mind, the most likely scenario is the Lion gathering the DA, their successors, and any Imperial forces willing to join him to prosecute war in the Dark Imperium. He's not going to waste time or resources fighting Guilliman, but he's not going to join his order either.



#44
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I still don't understand why people assume they would fight gainst each other. For example: as for the relationship between them we've seen only a fragment in IS and Runstorm. As much as events in the Angels of Caliban put Lion and Guilliman as a rivals, in Ruinstorm they are (using FW HH alliance chart gradation) sworn brothers. How do we know that Lion is not a best pal with Guilliman during the Scouring? We don't. Fluff han't progressed that far.

 

Aslo I don't believe that Lion would throw a fit upon not being a Warmaster - assuming he will wake up he still has to go the road RG went. "Sire it's been 10 000 years since you left us" - and what follows next, which is learning 10000 years of Imperial history, current state of affairs etc. Probably trip to Terra and to see his brother too. I don't believe he would be arrogant enough that after his respawn he will ignore all the stuff Roboute did and will just demand position of Warmaster. Thing to remember - Lion thought he deserved title of the Warmaster AFTER he conquered insane amount of worlds, not because he was in command of the First Legion.

 

But Imperium is BIG. I know that current narrative makes it feel claustrophobic but it is. BIG. I see no reason why taking command of the Imperium's ARMIES in the west for the Lion and east for the Guilliman couldn't work. If anything RG knows that Lion never craved being a ruler but a general. He recognizes him as a much needed resource - a military mastermind, one of the greatest that ever existed. etc.



#45
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Because the Lion will have never seen what happened to the Imperium when Guilliman took over. He won’t know Guilliman divided all the Legions, took power for himself, reorganized the entire Imperium in his own image. He will only wake up to see all of it ruined, and Guilliman in charge dictating to HIS legion what to do, how to fight, and so on. Imagine, for a silly hypothetical, Caesar woke up from being stabbed to find the Byzantine Emperor calling the shots in half of what was formed a massive, glorious empire he had just won from Pompeii. Would he be much inclined to listen to the guy say, ‘hey my half of the empire is ok, but you can have that other half filled with barbarians - also You can’t travel to your half of the empire because there’s a big demon infested crevice in the way’

#46
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That's possible toomsn-wink.gif Or the Lion accepting all of this as a neccessity. Everything is possible with "new GW".biggrin.png



#47
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The Lion will kneel to Guilliman. Then Ishagu will wake up. :D

I expect some sort of friction. Any thing less will be pathetic.

Edited by Sete, 05 December 2017 - 07:58 PM.

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#48
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I think as more loyalist primarchs show up in the current setting you will see Gman start a High Council just of primarchs with himself as the "first among equals" title/powers. I expect all the loyalist primarchs not expressly killed off to show back up. Also would not surprise me if some of the dead ones come back in some form or fashion.


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#49
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I think as more loyalist primarchs show up in the current setting you will see Gman start a High Council just of primarchs with himself as the "first among equals" title/powers. I expect all the loyalist primarchs not expressly killed off to show back up. Also would not surprise me if some of the dead ones come back in some form or fashion.

It will be a vision of Ferrus/Sanguinius that wakes the Lion:

"Lion. You will go to the Sol Sytem. There you will find our brother Guilliman..."



#50
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Lol if Primarch force ghosts start appearing I'm dropping this franchise


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