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Relationship between Roboute Guilliman and Lion El'Jonson


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#51
Urriak Urruk

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I think as more loyalist primarchs show up in the current setting you will see Gman start a High Council just of primarchs with himself as the "first among equals" title/powers. I expect all the loyalist primarchs not expressly killed off to show back up. Also would not surprise me if some of the dead ones come back in some form or fashion.

 

That would probably be Guilliman's ideal for governing the Imperium, now that he knows normal humans are too inadequate and corrupt. Most of the other Primarchs would probably be cool with that too.

 

But again, the Lion is the exception. We don't really know how he would react, but him allowing anyone save the Emperor or Horus have a position of higher importance than himself seems anti-thesis to his character.



#52
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Except for the time he and G swore fealty to Sanguinius in IS.
You're really trying to paint Lion as a devil aren’t you... Have you read any HH books with DA/Lion?

When a Great Beast marauds, the warriors of the keep do not seek terms with it, they do not ride out and ask for it to accommodate their feelings. They set forth with shocklance and power sword, and all the courage and determination they can muster. They find the beast and they lay their blades upon it until it is dead, or they are.


#53
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Except for the time he and G swore fealty to Sanguinius in IS.
You're really trying to paint Lion as a devil aren’t you... Have you read any HH books with DA/Lion?

 

To be fair the Imperium Secundus books and shorts portrayed him as a complete jerk until the very end of the arc.


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#54
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Just throwing my 2 cents here. Lion and Guilliman are brothers. Regardless of rivalry/other ideals, they are family. What a lot of the discussion seems to be forgetting is that the galaxy is royally screwed at the moment, Chaos is running rampet across the divide and the Imperium is feeling the pressure assuringly. Both Primarchs have much larger problems at hand than squabbling amongst themselves at the moment they have a sworn duty to protect humanity and to eradicate Chaos where ever it stems. They will get along because duty demands it. 

 

Krash


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#55
Urriak Urruk

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Except for the time he and G swore fealty to Sanguinius in IS.
You're really trying to paint Lion as a devil aren’t you... Have you read any HH books with DA/Lion?

 

I've read a few, not any Imperium Secundus yet... you're right about Sanguinius, he's the third guy the Lion would follow. Not Guilliman though, as I've been saying from the start.

 

And no I'm not making the Lion the devil, I like that he's not going to take any of Guilliman's censored.gif . Rob has always been WAY too uppity IMO, thinking his way is best, the Codex Astartes being the prime example.

 

I don't get why not kowtowing to G-Man's order somehow makes the Lion and DA evil. It doesn't, the Black Templars, Space Wolves, and Dark Angels disregard the Codex Astartes plenty and they are not evil. To act independently of Roboute's order doesn't make the Lion bad, it just aligns with his personality.



#56
Jarl Caldersson

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Just throwing my 2 cents here. Lion and Guilliman are brothers. Regardless of rivalry/other ideals, they are family.
Krash


Lorgar and Horus were aslo brothers.

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"It has been said that the Lord of Ultramar sees little else besides the primacy of his own culture. For him, all worlds might as well be Ultramar." - Diplomat Pyke

"I would have expected that suggestion from Ferrus, or maybe even Horus, but never Russ. He has a hidden depth that one" - Primarch Fulgrim

"The Wolves were the Emperor’s red right hand–monsters in their own way–but how easy it was to only see the savage, to fear the axe and miss the subtle knife." - Prmomus


#57
Captain_Krash

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Just throwing my 2 cents here. Lion and Guilliman are brothers. Regardless of rivalry/other ideals, they are family.
Krash


Lorgar and Horus were aslo brothers.

 

 

I'm sorry please elaborate. You right obviously lol but I'm not getting what you mean.msn-wink.gif

 

Krash 


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#58
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I think as more loyalist primarchs show up in the current setting you will see Gman start a High Council just of primarchs with himself as the "first among equals" title/powers. I expect all the loyalist primarchs not expressly killed off to show back up. Also would not surprise me if some of the dead ones come back in some form or fashion.

 

That would probably be Guilliman's ideal for governing the Imperium, now that he knows normal humans are too inadequate and corrupt. Most of the other Primarchs would probably be cool with that too.

 

But again, the Lion is the exception. We don't really know how he would react, but him allowing anyone save the Emperor or Horus have a position of higher importance than himself seems anti-thesis to his character.

 

 

I would say the in terms of sheer arrogance the bar was Fulgrim, Horus and then the Lion. But the Lion is not crazed with his pride to the point of rebellion. If he does come back, as I fully expect him to, what option is there for him other than work with Gman and whatever other loyal primarchs show up?


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#59
Urriak Urruk

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I think as more loyalist primarchs show up in the current setting you will see Gman start a High Council just of primarchs with himself as the "first among equals" title/powers. I expect all the loyalist primarchs not expressly killed off to show back up. Also would not surprise me if some of the dead ones come back in some form or fashion.

 

That would probably be Guilliman's ideal for governing the Imperium, now that he knows normal humans are too inadequate and corrupt. Most of the other Primarchs would probably be cool with that too.

 

But again, the Lion is the exception. We don't really know how he would react, but him allowing anyone save the Emperor or Horus have a position of higher importance than himself seems anti-thesis to his character.

 

 

I would say the in terms of sheer arrogance the bar was Fulgrim, Horus and then the Lion. But the Lion is not crazed with his pride to the point of rebellion. If he does come back, as I fully expect him to, what option is there for him other than work with Gman and whatever other loyal primarchs show up?

 

 

I think people are confusing my words a little bit, I don't think the Lion would rebel, just that he would lead his own crusade independently of Guilliman's wishes. That might sound similar to rebellion, but if he does it in the Dark Imperium its less secession and more of a crusade.



#60
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I think the Lion was the one who called Guilliman the avenging bean-counter

#61
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The Lion would be incapable of leading a crusade because anything beyond just the Dark Angels and their fleet would require permission from Guilliman? Guard allies? Need the Lord Commander to sign off. Real battleships? Need the Lord Commander. The Lion isn’t going to want to ask permission.

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#62
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The Lion would be incapable of leading a crusade because anything beyond just the Dark Angels and their fleet would require permission from Guilliman? Guard allies? Need the Lord Commander to sign off. Real battleships? Need the Lord Commander. The Lion isn’t going to want to ask permission.


He listened to Horus.

I’d imagine he’d extend the same courtesy to Guilliman. In fact I think Guilliman would give him more military individuality.

The Imperium is still in shambles. Once the Lion sees the state of the enemies of the Imperium I really believe concerns of power and glory won’t even register.

I think they handled Guilliman’s opening moments very well. It took all of 5 minutes for Guilliman to wish he’d never woke up.

Personally I believe regardless of those opening moments, the higher calling and decline of the Imperium will see the death of any friction. I truly believe Guilliman would be estatic to see the Lion and... share the burden of the decaying Imperium.
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#63
Marshal Rohr

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I’m not saying that isn’t the angle the authors will go with. If anything, you’re operating on the same wavelength they are. You’re thinking of it as the Iliad or Lord of the Rings. Two heroes putting aside their differences for the common good. My point is, if it were two real people and the Imperium was a real place and they had the history of mistrust and failed cooperation the Lion and Guilliman have, they’d end up fighting. I’m thinking of it as Histories of the Gallic Wars and the Peloponnesian War.

Edited by Marshal Rohr, 07 December 2017 - 03:55 AM.

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#64
Urriak Urruk

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The Lion would be incapable of leading a crusade because anything beyond just the Dark Angels and their fleet would require permission from Guilliman? Guard allies? Need the Lord Commander to sign off. Real battleships? Need the Lord Commander. The Lion isn’t going to want to ask permission.

 

As others have stated frequently, the Imperium is huge.

 

If you are an Imperial governor, and suddenly a DA fleet led by what to you is a living angel, and demanded you supply troops on his glorious crusade, are you really going to wait for permission from Terra?

 

I'm sure whenever Guilliman arrived somewhere in the Indomitus Crusade no one told him they needed permission from the High Lords first. It's very similar to that.

 

(this doesn't really work if you're near Terra, but I'm assuming the Lion is going to be on the fringe)



#65
Marshal Rohr

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Well, let’s say he does get some governor to conscript a few hundred thousand troops. How do they get off World? How do they get off World, and then back down again without all dying at the next one. This is the fundamental purpose of the codex reforms. The Dark Angels cannot simply demand naval assets and expect to be obeyed without question. An admiral with orders to patrol the rift isn’t going to abandon his duties if one Primarch says gimme your boats and the other says drive your boats from A to B. If they seize assets violently then of course Guilliman will step in an stop them. As second arrival, the Lion will be playing catch up and Guilliman has had 100 years to make everyone on the functioning side of the rift a part of his new chain of command.

You cannot handwave away the truth that two powerful leaders will come into conflict as surely as night and day. Every time. In every period of history. Cooperation is an aberrant phenomena driven by outside factors on the balance of power. Just because we live in one of the hiccups and might for our whole lives doesn’t make it any less of an anomaly.

I get your point. It’s a big galaxy and their relationship will be however they decide it is, regardless. The chances of them being bestie bros is far more likely than my scenario. That’s why I’m being very clear saying my scenario is the historical and reality based trend.

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#66
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Otoh, most people have to cooperate every day, even with people they disagree with/consider difficult and even on subjects that they feel strongly about. Conflict is an intrinsic part of human nature, yes - but so is cooperation, especially in the face of external pressure.
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#67
Jarl Caldersson

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I think the Lion was the one who called Guilliman the avenging bean-counter


That was Curze.

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"It has been said that the Lord of Ultramar sees little else besides the primacy of his own culture. For him, all worlds might as well be Ultramar." - Diplomat Pyke

"I would have expected that suggestion from Ferrus, or maybe even Horus, but never Russ. He has a hidden depth that one" - Primarch Fulgrim

"The Wolves were the Emperor’s red right hand–monsters in their own way–but how easy it was to only see the savage, to fear the axe and miss the subtle knife." - Prmomus


#68
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Otoh, most people have to cooperate every day, even with people they disagree with/consider difficult and even on subjects that they feel strongly about. Conflict is an intrinsic part of human nature, yes - but so is cooperation, especially in the face of external pressure.


Most people have so little power or influence they must cooperate. I’m not makin this stuff up man. People with letters after their name who work at the highest levels of academia and government have written book after book about why this happens.

Your opinion is important, and someone posting here probably does care what you think. You should go tell them. Remember that it really hurts to come up with an idea you care about and have no one else care. Go care about something and tell them what you think. Now. Think of what it would have meant to you when you were young.

 

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#69
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A lot of opinions I've seen all over seem to assume The Lion will be furious with Guilliman, but I honestly think a lot of emphasis would be given to how relieved Guilliman would be to have another at his level helping with things. Guilliman, if nothing else, surely has to respect the military skills of The Lion, and how they could be of use while freeing himself to handle more administrative duties. I wouldn't be surprised for Guilliman's first words to The Lion to be "Brother! You've Awoken! Remind me again how you always wanted to be Warmaster..."
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#70
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Except for the time he and G swore fealty to Sanguinius in IS.
You're really trying to paint Lion as a devil aren’t you... Have you read any HH books with DA/Lion?

 

To be fair the Imperium Secundus books and shorts portrayed him as a complete jerk until the very end of the arc.

 

Well to be fair he was the only Primarch in the Triumvirate that did anything (like mopping up Shadow Crusade and liberating worlds for example), unlike incompetent and hiporcitical RG. One my wonder how he could conquer anything after reading Angels of Caliban haha.rolleyesclean.gif 


When a Great Beast marauds, the warriors of the keep do not seek terms with it, they do not ride out and ask for it to accommodate their feelings. They set forth with shocklance and power sword, and all the courage and determination they can muster. They find the beast and they lay their blades upon it until it is dead, or they are.


#71
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Except for the time he and G swore fealty to Sanguinius in IS.
You're really trying to paint Lion as a devil aren’t you... Have you read any HH books with DA/Lion?

 

To be fair the Imperium Secundus books and shorts portrayed him as a complete jerk until the very end of the arc.

 

Well to be fair he was the only Primarch in the Triumvirate that did anything (like mopping up Shadow Crusade and liberating worlds for example), unlike incompetent and hiporcitical RG. One my wonder how he could conquer anything after reading Angels of Caliban haha.rolleyesclean.gif

 

 

Angels of Caliban takes place concurrent to Pharos where Guilliman leads the reinforcements to Sotha and repels the Night Lord invasion there. An invasion that occurred, if I might add, due to the fact that the Lion was chasing false leads to the edge of Ultramar without telling any of his brothers as well as keeping the true nature of the Pharos device a secret from Guilliman and Sanguinius (which in turn led to a paltry garrison of a 1000 Ultramarines being left on Sotha to fend off against a 20,000 strong Night Lord force).  


Edited by DogWelder, 07 December 2017 - 07:18 PM.

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#72
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Wait, you're telling me that Guilliman who ordered the construction of  Pharos didn't knew what it really was and Lion did?

 

And please define "the false leads". Guilliman set the propaganda that there are no more enemies in Ultramar (Red Marked) with his legion doing almost nothing at all except garissoning. He choose to pretend that everything is fine, and Lion by trying to capture/kill Curze (which led to battles with still present WE,WB and NL forces) liberated many of the 500 worlds which Guilliman apparently didn't cared for.  He couldn't even secure his homeworld Maccrage which led to assassination attempt on Sanguinius. Where were his Legion all the time?


When a Great Beast marauds, the warriors of the keep do not seek terms with it, they do not ride out and ask for it to accommodate their feelings. They set forth with shocklance and power sword, and all the courage and determination they can muster. They find the beast and they lay their blades upon it until it is dead, or they are.


#73
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Wait, you're telling me that Guilliman who ordered the construction of  Pharos didn't knew what it really was and Lion did?

 

And please define "the false leads". Guilliman set the propaganda that there are no more enemies in Ultramar (Red Marked) with his legion doing almost nothing at all except garissoning. He choose to pretend that everything is fine, and Lion by trying to capture/kill Curze (which led to battles with still present WE,WB and NL forces) liberated many of the 500 worlds which Guilliman apparently didn't cared for.  He couldn't even secure his homeworld Maccrage which led to assassination attempt on Sanguinius. Where were his Legion all the time?

 

The short story 'Heart of the Pharos' goes into much more detail. Basically no one figured out the truth behind the Pharos device until a pair of Ultramarine scouts got lost in the mountain and accidentally stumbled across the Pharos Beacon itself (and started seeing visions of the Tyranid fleet but thats a story for another time). They were going to inform Guilliman when the Lion intercepted them and made them pledge their silence in order to keep the secret to himself and in an effort to prevent panic.

 

As for the attempt on Sanguinius, Curze literally disappeared from Macragge due to a mini-warp rift caused by John Grammaticus and was deposited right in front of Sanguinius' throneroom. There was nothing anyone could have done to stop the attempt since Curze was technically not in the same universe until the attempt. 

 

The Ultramarines were exhausted after the Shadow Crusade (having to face two entire Legions by themselves after losing 50% of their Legion to a surprise attack). It was a constant battle for them from Calth to Nuceria and then the effort to clean up Kor Phaeron's failed attack on Macragge itself. Not to mention that warp transit was extremely slow due to the reliance on the Pharos Beacon. Is it any wonder they chose to garrison the core worlds of Ultramar and try to consolidate their forces/build up their troops and numbers once more instead of leading expeditions into the frontier? The reason the Dark Angels could go wherever they wanted was due to the Tuchulcha engine which, once again, was kept secret from the other Legions.


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