Ichar Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 It makes me really appreciate how little care or time or concern has been put into the Grey Knights army. How about you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 So our eldar player who taking a new father break (gz!) Is looking at an Altioc (-2 hit on rangers, serpents and Reapers wirth Conceal/strat) and Ulthwé (FnP on WL and Wraithbros in those serpents) list. With that and our nid player getting the hand of his new codex synergies, i don't see myself ever winning another game versus either of them. And our Chaos player is jumping to Bangels. So what hope do I have. /sigh So much for a balanced game GW. Altioc Reapers in cover with Conceal up. 10 strikes shooting at 13+" away. 20 shots. 6.7 hits. 4.5 wound. 0.75 unsaved. Basically immune to my shooting over 12"... I really feel like playing now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danarc Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 But we have a new errata that.... changes.... nothing. REALLY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 We have a new errata? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvus Fortis Posted December 4, 2017 Share Posted December 4, 2017 And both BA and DA recieved ways to return CP. Fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 I think we should really have no expectations going forward guys. I agree that we just get ignored/shafted by every new codex release. Apparently GW will do another pass around March, looking at all the armies in more detail. Until then, I would just stop paying attention to any FAQ announcements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Mytre Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 I think we should really have no expectations going forward guys. I agree that we just get ignored/shafted by every new codex release. Apparently GW will do another pass around March, looking at all the armies in more detail. Until then, I would just stop paying attention to any FAQ announcements. They won't change the rules, just the points costs - aside from maybe universal rules such as Rights of Banishment. We won't see the rework we require to be fluffy for a year at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Chapter Approved focuses on point cost changes. But we may see FAQ changes to actual rules prior to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 the thing is the rules changes planed are going to be nerfs or removing of unexpected rules interaction due to wording used by GW. the chance of those making GK better are rather slim. The fact that GK fluffwise[as bogus as this may seem considering 8th ed fluff] do not have primaris [yet?] puts them in a odd place design wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 the thing is the rules changes planed are going to be nerfs or removing of unexpected rules interaction due to wording used by GW. the chance of those making GK better are rather slim. Where is your proof of this, or are you talking out of your arse...again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helycon Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 the thing is the rules changes planed are going to be nerfs or removing of unexpected rules interaction due to wording used by GW. the chance of those making GK better are rather slim. The fact that GK fluffwise[as bogus as this may seem considering 8th ed fluff] do not have primaris [yet?] puts them in a odd place design wise. There is no proof of this at all. The fact you are bitter about Grey Knights being in a bad spot is understandable, but spreading misinformation that is actually just your cynical outlook is not the way to go by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Am not bitter. I don't play them. And what miss information am spreading here. You have 3 rules packs out for GK. you want to tell me that any of the 3 indicatates that GW is planing to update GK with primaris or drastic rule changes? Where is your proof of this, or are you talking out of your arse...again? Every change to legacy stuff in 8th ed was like that. It was also the way rules changes were told to be dealt with on their chanel[FAQ only to missed wordings, or strange interactions and errata and real rules changes only every 6 month to avoid people being confused by new books coming out and being invalidated] Am not going to comment on the arse thing to a mod, when a warrning auto bans me. You want to talk about rules design GW, I can gladly do it in pms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helycon Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Am not bitter. I don't play them. And what miss information am spreading here. You have 3 rules packs out for GK. you want to tell me that any of the 3 indicatates that GW is planing to update GK with primaris or drastic rule changes? Where is your proof of this, or are you talking out of your arse...again? Every change to legacy stuff in 8th ed was like that. It was also the way rules changes were told to be dealt with on their chanel[FAQ only to missed wordings, or strange interactions and errata and real rules changes only every 6 month to avoid people being confused by new books coming out and being invalidated] Am not going to comment on the arse thing to a mod, when a warrning auto bans me. You want to talk about rules design GW, I can gladly do it in pms. If you don't play them, why are you coming across as bitter anyway? Why are you littering this section of the forum with misinformation? You may not think it is, but it is. The GK codex was one of the first codices, and sadly, this generally means they're at the start of power creep. This also means that GW has a chance to review it in time. We expected Chapter Approved to do so, and it was more rules, some minor balance tweaks in terms of points. Did they miss the mark? Yup, they did. This, to me, was the only ACTUAL shot at balancing. The other 'two' you describe, are errata's, not changes. It also turns out, they used community feedback. I guess that means Grey Knights didn't provide enough, or not in the right channels. This is being worked on on this VERY subforum. Hopefully this reaches the desks of the right people. They haven't done a huge amount of changing in 8th edition just yet. Some of the rules for specific units from index to codex are pretty profound, and some additions are pretty massive too, just look at the GMNDK. Currently, there is talk of an ACTUAL balancing pass in march, with more changes to rules and stats, besides just point changes. It's not set in stone, and I sincerely hope for Grey Knights there will be changes. They need them, and again, I understand why it's not fun to play them, since there is very little to no diversity in units, and making a competitive list for those that enjoy tournaments, is a long shot. The fact that there will only be nerfs is completely grabbed from thin air, since we don't know the process GW has planned for this pass at all. Let's keep faith and keep the feedback of people that DO actually play coming, so GW realises what the issues GK players face actually are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 You guys know Jeske has had early access to some/all of the 8th edition codexes? So presumably he has some connection somewhere. No idea what or who though. And you really don't have to play with GK to know and understand the issues with them. You don't even have to have played against them either. Edit. It also seems that the CA were not based in any player feedback at all. But all based on tournament results and rules. Presumably vetted by the same 15 playtesters that playtested 8th originally. The only thing we do know that will be coming in the next balance pass is a nerf. To Smite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helycon Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 I don't, and since he never stated a source, I'm not taking his word for it. It's just blatant negativism, which doesn't help anything but to turn people against you. Positive feedback works so much better in every case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Jeske talked about info before a codex release that was accurate once the codex was released. I don't begrudge him from not supplying a source. I'd love to give GW positive feedback. But there is nothing positive about the direction GW have taken the GK in 8th. Can you find anything positive to say about our army? That doesn't mean negative criticism can't be constructive. But that's different to positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helycon Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 I haven't read that he did and it's not relevant. If you don't have a written source, I'll not believe you. There is so much guesswork at hand that I'll see it when I believe it. Again, I agree GK aren't great and there is a lot that leaves to be desired. Stating that 'only nerds will come' at random, doesn't change that and it most certainly doesn't come across as trying to give constructive feedback. In fact, it provoked the exact reaction I'm currently writing, and would not blame GW for not even trying to bother. Stating the fact you don't play the army doesn't help either, since it means you can't pinpoint specific weaknesses as well as someone who has hands on experience in many games against armies that both do and don't have their codex, to see how they measure up. The good things about are codex is that we have a great new addition in the GMNDK. People are taking them even in Supreme Command detachments as add-ons to other armies. They are a welcome addition to the army. The melee game is strong, there is very little you can't deal with when you DO get close. This applies to virtually all of our units. I do agree there is too much overlap when it comes to our units and that it's just simple maths to what is a better unit. Sadly, this is incredibly difficult to change in the current day and age, since everything can be computed with relative ease. In World of Warcraft, there is only one way to do the maximum amount of DPS for any specialisation, and the same applies to an army in Warhammer. It's just worse for Grey Knights, since options are more limited and the variation we do have needs addressing more so than just stay changes. I'm still very hopeful that the constructive criticism that is currently pinned on this subforum will be a good start to show GW there are passionate players that want the best for GK. I'm not playing a ton with GK, since I am a DA main, but do feel that the negativism many people feel isn't an incentive for GW to do anything. It just makes you sound angry and bitterhich generally makes people dislike and ignore you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Being angry and bitter should spur GW on to find out how they've failed thier customers and what could they do to placate then. Look at EA and the paywall fiasco. Anger and ranting changed that. The same with the state Destiny 2 fina itself in. Months of oh it'll be ok ignored by the devs. Only when the players ranted about the shady xp calculations, and approached main steam media to help, did Bungie do anything. We need to stir up passionate, and *displeased* responses for GW to actually take notice. There were many GK players that have already and repeatedly given feedback to GW. They have seemingly taken none of it on board. Why do we think continuing along the same route will achieve a different response? Edit. The GMNDK is bar far the best unit in our codex. But I'd that really anything positive? It has no Dedicated model. It completely relegates the standard NDK into uselessness. It attracts other players to dip into the GK for nothing other then running multiple NDK in thier own. It adds no unfair synergy to the army that all our other GM don't already. Yet is the best unit in our Codex... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helycon Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 The comparison doesn't work, since this is only a very small part of the GW income, whereas Battlefront is massive for EA and implications for the future affect a LOT more people. People tell EA 'no' but not buying the product and costing them, whilst also costing them the trust of ALL of their customers. Sure GK players are disgruntled and again, rightfully so. I just think that this approach isn't the correct one since the parallel with EA doesn't work. The message also needs to be more precise l than 'screw you and your pay to win', since there is a lot more mechanisms involved than just blatant greed. Gathering ideas, providing them in a constructive manner, and showing compassion in stead of anger, will probably get us further than shouting angrily and incoherently. That's one of the bigger benefits using this forum. Ideas are posted, people can agree, making a stronger case for it. People can disagree and constructively relaying why. People can also take a good or bad idea, and build on it to improve it, getting us further in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Yes. It's either ignorance or ineptitude. Both probably worse than pure corporate greed. Edit. We are a minority. Which is why we need to be loud to be heard. Honestly, this is something i would hope the whole community ralies behind, which is why is great non GK players are contributing. But it seems the community is too complacent wirth thier own armies doing well to really care. Like the ynarri over nerf. Which i feel is very sad. Compassion. No that will get us no where. That type of feedback will be ignored as is no danger or worry to GW. Coherent, def. Rambling disjointed arguements wont get us anywhere either. But Compassion? Won't work. And GW don't deserve it from us either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvus Fortis Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Both IG and Ynnari got serious changes in FAQ's, so I do not think it is impossible for GW to change GK the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 Guys I know the topic has become contentious but please let's keep Frater comments to private messages, or not at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riddlesworth Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Top GK units: GMNDK, Strike Squads, Storm Ravens, Voldus, Draigo, Apothecaries, Paladins, Razorbacks Got to be honest, even taking beatstick armies made of these units, its still an uphill battle against even average players of Ynnari and other armies. There's a reason you're seeing supreme command detachments of 3xGMNDK + imperials Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 There's a reason you're seeing supreme command detachments of 3xGMNDK + imperials It's why they're banned in most local tournaments where I am. Supreme Command is the worst kind of cheese. I've never seen anyone use that detachment except to bring broken stupidity into their list. Flyer Wing is probably going to be unbanned now that GW kneecapped them as scoring. It's pretty disgusting people literally just steal the best unit from our book and mix it into the big Imperial soup pot of 'good stuff'. I really hope GW takes a baseball bat to soup armies (of all kinds) in the next Chapter Approved. Even compared to the dumb 'Taudar' lists of 7th, I'd prefer that over 'so I just cherrypicked the best stuff from 5 armies and threw it together, also I parked Guilleman in the middle so they re-roll everything'. Same for Chaos soup, Brimstones were a mistake (apparently the FW Lords are now too expensive so at least the Smite spam has stopped being as popular). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted December 11, 2017 Share Posted December 11, 2017 Yeah because 70 or 80 points for a full Smite is now overcosted. Where's my rolleyes smiley. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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