Tirak Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 We're guard. In an army where we bring 10 of everything 5 points adds up quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchverr Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Hades veterans are still 6 points per model yet have no advantages over guardsmen, points reduction or given better statlines (veterans or krieg engineer equipment without cult of sacrifice would work well either way) (still a shame the hades isnt engineer material but oh well) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Hades veterans have better leadership and better weapon options than regular guard but I agree. I had FW respond recently to an email asking to make the Subterranean Assault Squad that they sell actually usable in game. I also asked for Engineer Heavy Weapon Squads. They said they will forward it to the rules team, but we’ve all heard that before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral_80 Posted December 5, 2017 Author Share Posted December 5, 2017 - Streamlined the text as much as possible - Removed the initial thing about -1 hit, while I am still very persuaded that this is/will be one of the major (in)balance problems of this edition. I have already been forced to drop half of the long-range units I used to select from, and will likely drop more...and we are only at the beginning - corrected the Thunderbolt vs Lightning thing - added something about the Hades - removed DKK Alpha LR - I do not agree at all that Elysians and DKK are worth 1 extra point over a normal guard. At the moment, esp. DKK get crappy orders, crappy weapons options, and no relics/stratagems in exchange for their bonuses, which is more than a counterbalance. If one or more of this issues is addressed, they *might* become worth 1 extra point. Reworded the entry for clarity anyway. - Will wait to hear some more opinions about Astropaths, I am still unsure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halfpint100 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Hades veterans are still 6 points per model yet have no advantages over guardsmen, points reduction or given better statlines (veterans or krieg engineer equipment without cult of sacrifice would work well either way) (still a shame the hades isnt engineer material but oh well) Baring in mind, currently at bs 4+ the plasma is still 7 points a model, give them bs 3+ and that goes to 13 points. For an extra 2 points you get +1LD, a shotgun and deepstrike, not bad IMO. These soliders are the suicidal guys that will dig a hole into the heart of the enemy lines, using the drill to burst through for the last few meters, armed only with a shotgun and their faith in the emperor. I doubt accuracy and that mindset is correlated. Sure i would love bs 3+, but they still do well for me with just bs 4+. But yes, there should be an option to make them Kreig (not just keyword) and give engineers the options to use the drill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 - I do not agree at all that Elysians and DKK are worth 1 extra point over a normal guard. At the moment, esp. DKK get crappy orders, crappy weapons options, and no relics/stratagems in exchange for their bonuses, which is more than a counterbalance. If one or more of this issues is addressed, they *might* become worth 1 extra point. Reworded the entry for clarity anyway. - Will wait to hear some more opinions about Astropaths, I am still unsure. Elysians get army-wide deep strike, which is worth 1 point. Death Korps are missing two good orders, it's true, and the replacements are pretty bad, but they have all the relics and stratagems regular guard do, as well as the memento mori unique item which is like a relic but not. So they just need the regular orders and a unique stratagem, done. Not being able to field heavy weapon teams inside regular infantry squads is not a huge deal, that one item alone does not mean they have "crappy weapon options". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tirak Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Hades veterans are still 6 points per model yet have no advantages over guardsmen, points reduction or given better statlines (veterans or krieg engineer equipment without cult of sacrifice would work well either way) (still a shame the hades isnt engineer material but oh well) Baring in mind, currently at bs 4+ the plasma is still 7 points a model, give them bs 3+ and that goes to 13 points. For an extra 2 points you get +1LD, a shotgun and deepstrike, not bad IMO. These soliders are the suicidal guys that will dig a hole into the heart of the enemy lines, using the drill to burst through for the last few meters, armed only with a shotgun and their faith in the emperor. I doubt accuracy and that mindset is correlated. Sure i would love bs 3+, but they still do well for me with just bs 4+. But yes, there should be an option to make them Kreig (not just keyword) and give engineers the options to use the drill. The shotgun is not a point in favor of the unit quite frankly, and the deepstrike comes courtesy of the 65 point drill you haul along. If they are meant to be guardsnen then they need to go to 4 points despite the +1 leadership. If they're meant to be vets then they need the BS to go with it. Either way the unit is bad right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halfpint100 Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 - I do not agree at all that Elysians and DKK are worth 1 extra point over a normal guard. At the moment, esp. DKK get crappy orders, crappy weapons options, and no relics/stratagems in exchange for their bonuses, which is more than a counterbalance. If one or more of this issues is addressed, they *might* become worth 1 extra point. Reworded the entry for clarity anyway. - Will wait to hear some more opinions about Astropaths, I am still unsure. Elysians get army-wide deep strike, which is worth 1 point. Death Korps are missing two good orders, it's true, and the replacements are pretty bad, but they have all the relics and stratagems regular guard do, as well as the memento mori unique item which is like a relic but not. So they just need the regular orders and a unique stratagem, done. Not being able to field heavy weapon teams inside regular infantry squads is not a huge deal, that one item alone does not mean they have "crappy weapon options". Plus DK get +1 ws and ignore moral from shooting, that last ability is worth the extra point (and they are gorgeous models). I think from a CA point of view, Elysian and DK points are fine, they just need a unique stratagem and relic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tirak Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Army wide deepstrike doesn't seem extra expensive given Catachans are S4 and all their vehicles reroll shooting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchverr Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Plus DK get +1 ws and ignore moral from shooting, that last ability is worth the extra point (and they are gorgeous models). I think from a CA point of view, Elysian and DK points are fine, they just need a unique stratagem and relic And others reroll Dx dice when shooting, become strength 4 or reroll 1s and so on, its just a different flavour of doctrine which again, nobody else pays points to have nor pay in losing options. As for the Elysians and their deep strike, they lose so many options that it evens it out handedly, they dont get tanks, ground transport, lascannon teams iirc, 1 type of officer too iirc, again, this is equivilent to a doctrine in my mind simply from all the negatives in order to get the boon. They are good when used correctly, but that applies to all the doctrines really. If the guard dex said "pay 1 point per infantry model to use a doctrine" then I would say sure, but they dont, so FW regiments shouldnt either. Even with deep strike or the WS3+, they are still basic guardsmen and each point adds up, to the point many elysians say you should take the minimum numbers of infantry you can due to being overpriced and for krieg, well, most krieg players would be getting a good 130 points plus saved with a point reduction per model due to relying heavily on infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral_80 Posted December 5, 2017 Author Share Posted December 5, 2017 My bad, with DKK crappy weapons options I was thinking mostly to a very limited selection of support units compared to an AM list. Plus yes, the loss of hwt in the squad, which *is* bad considering that heavy weapons squads simply die on a stiff breeze, and the rest of their heavy fire is average at best. Between this and all other downsides listed in the above posts, I am still persuaded that DKK and Elysians should not cost more than a normal guardsman at the moment. Let's move on? I am sure there is still much to consider. Any other important rules clarification besides the Tallarn stratagem? I'd include something about terrain rules, but I seem to be among the few who is really puzzled and annoyed by these, plus it has nothing to do with AM directly, so never mind. Let's hear something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchverr Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Mortars slightly cheap for effect? They do seem to be the primary spam model currently. Increase by a point per? Multilaser too expencive, lacks a role, same for twin multilasers. Missile launchers slightly overpriced, outdone by other weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral_80 Posted December 5, 2017 Author Share Posted December 5, 2017 All sadly true, updated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchverr Posted December 5, 2017 Share Posted December 5, 2017 Sorry to spam a bit, but also remembered the death korps mole launcher, 18 points for the weapon, but remember only engineer weapon teams can bring it, so it becomes 32/33 points (not sure on adding krieg shotgun). overpriced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperator Deus Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 I thought it was odd that the Exterminator was passed over when twin-linked weapons became twin weapons. Doubling an Exterminator's shots to Heavy 8 would make it worth taking imho. Every other twin-linked weapon doubled the number of their shots, so I presumed it was just an oversight in the Index to be corrected in the Codex, but so far it still stands. Maybe a point increase to 25 or 30 pts. would balance out an 8 shot Exterminator Cannon? As for the Vanquisher, it's supposed to be a tank hunter, but as it is now, it is awful in that role. Why not make the Vanquisher cause D6 mortal wounds? It would make it capable of damaging other tanks, monsters and super-heavies. To further the tank/monster hunter theme, they could make it so that these mortal wounds don't carry over to other models in the target unit; so it's really good at putting holes in big stuff, but not so useful against infantry hordes. Coupled with Grinding Advance this could become a pretty strong option, so an increase to 40 or 50 points might be in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatBrannigan Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Mortars are a good candidate for a points increase, can't just send a load of suggested improvements if you want to be taken seriously! Trying to think of what else we could increase. Maybe Bullgryns? They're always beasts in the games I play unless they come across a really choppy character. Now that they can easily get a 2++ save with a bit of support maybe a slight increase for them. Punishers as well? Not really sure if they stand out as a good choice because they're undercosted or because other Leman Russ variants are poor. For the love of god emphasise the Exterminator and Vanquisher issues. One was forgotten about (double it's shots!) and the other is just awful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchverr Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Punishers shouldnt go up, they are fairly good right now and good =/= must be nerfed, the problem for punishers is that the other options for the vehicles they are on are not cost effective, if it was nerfed people would just roll basic BC russes en mass I suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral_80 Posted December 6, 2017 Author Share Posted December 6, 2017 I am adding/emphasizing the Punisher and Mortars thing, that's fair. Bullgryns: no, I don't think they should be adjusted. Within the economy of the whole army, they are a necessity, especially now that the game is quickly forcing all armies to move towards short range firefights and close combat. If you nerf the Bullgryns, then somebody will propose to nerf the DKK Death riders, and then AM will be pretty much screwed once again. I'd leave them as they are, they seem fair. The CA Astropath nerf has also limited the availability of psychic support to protect Bullgryns, so that's already an indirect nerf. The DKK mole launcher is probably poor, but given its very limited occurrence it belongs to the minor issues which I'd leave aside for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halfpint100 Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 I don't think that punishers need to go up in points, sure it is a lot of dakka, but it is short ranged and no ap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatBrannigan Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Fair enough, just some of the other LR variants need to be made better somehow. For the Vanquisher and Exterminator the main gun needs fixing, it would be a BIG points reduction to make those two worth taking. I don't really use conscripts (have 20 but that was more of a modelling project) but they are now abysmal, as are commissars. That's a real shame because the wining douches that had trouble dealing with conscript blobs (take anti-infantry weapons maybe?) have won the day there. Keep conscripts as they are now and revert to the index commissar rules perhaps? It's Valhalan players who have struggled through 7 editions of using a dreadful unit because that's the theme they want I feel sorry for. Apart from that I think we're good (not including forgeworld, that's a real mess at the moment)? Just ask them to stop randomly picking one unit and one weapon each year to add points on to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral_80 Posted December 6, 2017 Author Share Posted December 6, 2017 So are we done already? That was much quicker than expected :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallenSoldiers Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 What about addressing the Relic of Lost Cadia. Right now people are using it every round since the wording is vague on if it’s once per game or not. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feral_80 Posted December 6, 2017 Author Share Posted December 6, 2017 Some people are just sick. It's very obviously meant to be a one-use only. But I guess I can add it for completeness... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitchverr Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 So are we done already? That was much quicker than expected I have other niggling things in the FW book but most of it is rules changes which wouldnt be the position for this area :) I would say give it a couple more days, people might come up with an issue or 3. Other stuff which could fall under this. Centaurs do not have the fire out the vehicle ability as other vehicles which were open topped got, while having less toughness as they do. Tauros grenade launcher is overpriced, possibly the tauros assault vehicle is, but either way 1 of them is stopping people using it in general due to cost. Marauders slightly overcosted maybe? They seem decent right now but mostly due to the other flyers nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
librisrouge Posted December 6, 2017 Share Posted December 6, 2017 Some people are just sick. It's very obviously meant to be a one-use only. But I guess I can add it for completeness... While I think that everybody agrees with you, it warrants inclusion because it isn't clear. In fact, RAW, it can be used every turn. Of course, fluffwise and in the sense of basic human fairness, it really shouldn't work that way. This is why the RoLC is perfect for an FAQ, because it does need clarified so that nobody can unfairly make that argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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