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An Open Letter Re: Grey Knights to the GW Rules Team

Grey Knights FaQ Rules

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#1
Prot

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The opening moments of 8th edition are here. We have a Chapter Approved and a handful of codexes out.
 
It is safe to say the majority of Grey Knight players (some of you dating back a very long time on this forum and some of you just coming aboard) are... disillusioned about the current Grey Knight Codex. Well this is your chance. This is the post that will be stickied, and you can refer to it, and reference it to GW.
 
It will also act as an internal sounding board. To stop repetitive negativity, and concentrate on 'fixes'. This thread, this post, is your say.
 
Keep in mind this is what 'we' want GW to fix first. It's about the most important, the most deficient areas of the codex you want/need fixed. This can't be an epic tome of knowledge, but a logical and reasonable request backed by evidence, either through example, or simple math that supports the cause.
 
When we have agreement, and proper language sorted, this open letter will remain here. And it will be tracked, and updated as needed.
 
So now is your time Sons of Titan. Have your say, make it well thought out, and reasonable and let's put a strong case up for GW's rules team to consider for the defense of humanity!

-prot

 

The Bolter and Chainsword open letter to Games Workshop: Considerations for Grey Knights in 8th edition.

 


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#2
Grandmaster Rich

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The most significant problems with the codex are:

 

1) Paying points for things we cannot use all of the time: deepstrike due to deployment rules, psychic powers, nemesis forceweapons, and full smite (which we don't have access to but our units are costed as if we do)

2) The Rule of One limiting the power of our psychic phase and ability to generate the powers we are paying a high cost for in the base points values of our units.

3) Lack of strategic diversity (Forced into alpha striking and heavy reliance on going first otherwise Grey Knights are more expensive marines with the same survivability)

4) Heavy reliance on stratagems to make our units effective, but can at most generated 4-7 with no way of regaining them with a relic or warlord trait (Our Supreme Grandmaster gives us no bonus command points).

 

 

Honestly there are simple solutions for each one that can be taken care of in a single page of Errata. 

 

1) Points drops for the most obvious offenders (Paladin Ancients, Techmarines, Librarians, Land Raiders, Terminators, and our special weapons).  Instead of dropping the points of all our special weapons all of them could instead be changed to assault instead of heavy.

2) Allow Sanctuary, Hammerhand, Astral Aim, and Gate of Infinity to affect the targeted unit and one additional Grey Knights unit within 6 inches.

3) To increase strategic diversity (i.e. not pigeonholing GK armies into alpha strike GK lists) grant Battleforged Grey Knight detachments an additional special rule.  The Shrouding: "Your opponent must subtract 1 from any hit rolls for attacks that target a unit with this attribute at a range of more than 12."  This would not increase the strength of our current alpha strike list since they revolve around dropping your army within 9 inches and getting first turn charges.  It would however benefit other styles of Grey Knight play that revolve around mobility and keeping the opponents army within the 24 inch effective radius of most Grey Knight weaponry.  This rule would also significantly increase the viability of land raider based forces allowing them a chance to survive the opponents first turn shooting if the land raiders base cost is also dropped.

4) Because Grey Knight armies rely heavily on stratagems to make our units effective, have Supreme Grandmaster Kaldor Draigo grant battleforged Grey Knight armies 2 command points with a new special rule: Grand Strategy.  Moreover, Psychic Onslaught, Psybolt Ammo, and Heed the Prognosticars are reduced from 2 Command Points to 1 Point Command.

 

These four changes would go a long way to increasing the competitive and casual viability of Grey Knight armies, allowing for new strategies to develop and other unit choice to shine that at the moment never see the gaming table. 


Edited by Grandmaster Rich, 05 December 2017 - 05:00 PM.

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#3
Capt. Mytre

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Number 1 thing I want are fluffy rules. While there are a host of issues (special weapons/unit role overlap/overcosted units/useless units/lack of identity), I'll leave those to others and suggest <Brotherhood> traits, similar to <Chapter> or <Regiment> traits, intended to be used together. This represents the brotherhoods being deployed together. Also add on a special rule to Grand Masters so that you can only take one per detachment.

 

1. The Swordbearers: Vehicles in this detachment gain a 5+ Invuln save. If they already have an invlun save, they gain +1 invuln save.
2. The Blades of Victory: Grey Knight units in this detachment can move D6" after DS (including GoI).
3. The Wardmakers: Grey Knight units in this detachment have a +2 Cast/Deny.
4. The Prescient Brethren: Each Grey Knight unit in this detachment can reroll 1 die per turn.
5. The Preservers: Grey Knight Apothecaries in this detachment are considered HQ choices and gain a 6" aura that grants a 5+ FNP to infantry. Only one Apothecary may be taken per detachment. Dreadnoughts gain "Unyielding Ancient" (6+ FNP). If they already have Unyielding Ancient, they gain a +1 to the Unyielding Ancient roll. Apothecaries from this detachment may attempt to heal Dreadnoughts at the end of each movement phase. Roll a dice, on a 2+, heal 1 wound. Roll again, each time increasing the roll required. They can either use this ability or heal a GK infantry unit, but not both.
6. The Rapiers: Grey Knight units in this detachment gain a +1 to hit after DS (including GoI). Servitors gain Teleport Strike and can be fielded as 20 man squads. Servitors lose Mindlock and receive Mindlock Array, granting them +4 WS and BS, LD9 and ignore moral phase losses as long as there is a total of 10 servitor models within a 6" bubble of the unit, including the unit itself. Servitors also gain this buff if there is a friendly Grey Knight Techmarine within 24".
7. The Exactors: Any friendly units with the "Imperium" key word gain 9LD if within 6" of a Grey Knight unit from this detachment. These allied units also each gain the ability to deny one power per turn.
8. The Silver Blades: Gain +1 to hit in the fight phase. Units in this detachment can Fall Back and shoot or charge in the same turn, but not both.



#4
Riddlesworth

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Grandmaster Rich basically hit the nail on the head.

Ways round the deployment rules for deep striking also wouldbt go amiss.

#5
skarn

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My suggestions:
Full smite for all units.
Reduce cost of special weapons on models that replace their nfw to 5pts each, 10 on terminators.
Increase incinerator range to 10".
Increase purifier smite to 6".
Reduce terminators cost to 28ppm.
Give paladins the bodyguard rule to GK infantry characters within 3".
Give NDK power of the machine spirit.

Lastly, give all GK the malleus keyword, and stipulate that Malleus inquisitors don't prevent GK from receiving their chapter bonuses.

Edited by skarn, 06 December 2017 - 02:31 AM.


#6
Waking Dreamer

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So we all agree our unique special weapons NEED a points drop...but can we all agree on how much?

The best way is to use maths and go beyond what we "feel" they "should" be. Can someone crunch the numbers compared to say the NFW + stormbolter, and other armies infantry special weapons like the assault cannon etc?

#7
Capt. Mytre

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So we all agree our unique special weapons NEED a points drop...but can we all agree on how much?

The best way is to use maths and go beyond what we "feel" they "should" be. Can someone crunch the numbers compared to say the NFW + stormbolter, and other armies infantry special weapons like the assault cannon etc?


They need new rules rather than points changes. Psilencers should be anti-MEQ, Psicannons should be anti-tank. Think assault cannons/plasma guns cross for psilencers and las cannons/krak missile launchers for psycannons. They sacrifice range for being more effective + being balanced for just our army.
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#8
Reclusiarch Darius

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Some very basic changes on top of what Grandmaster Rich suggested (very good compilation)

 

- Psycannons changed to Damage 2 (fixes their most glaring issue)

- Incinerators changed to range 12" (general problem with all flamers GW, make them all range 12")

- Crowe causes Mortal Wounds on 6+ to wound in melee

- Dreadknights ignore the -1 to hit when firing Heavy weapons after moving

- Instead of Draigo just granting +2CP, all Grand Masters (including Draigo) gain the 'Grand Strategy' special rule. Whenever a strategem is used (by either player), roll a D6, on a 5+ the GK player gains +1 Command Point. This makes Draigo less of an auto-include, and meshes well with the '0-1 Grand Master per detachment' restriction. It's hard to abuse because GK players rarely take more than 2 detachments (and GMDK's are very expensive), and its random. Also if you kill the Grand Master, the ability switches off. This also sidesteps the issue of having to change any of the existing Warlord traits, by just being a special rule.

- Purifiers 'Purifying Flame' changes the range of their Smite to 9", D6 mortal wounds and 2D6 if 10+. This fixes all their current issues without a need to change their stats or cost. They're more expensive Strikes that Smite better. Currently its simply unusable, this makes it viable if you bring a Brother-Captain. 


"Already, you exalt me for my triumphs, when I ask only that you remember me for my treacheries.
Victory is nothing more than survival. It carries no weight of honour or worth beyond what we ascribe to it.
If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers."

Grand Master Khyron, Eighth Brotherhood

"One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness, One last blade, forged in defiance of fate,
Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered. And my final gift to the species I failed."

Inscription upon the Arcus Daemonica, attributed to the Emperor of Mankind


#9
Danarc

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As Italian GK community we sent to GW the following advices:
 

 

Points adjustments (before Wargear)

 

Grand Master – 140 (There is virtually no reason to take him over a Grand Master in Dreadknight Armour at his current cost, and he is 55 points more expensive than a Space Marine Terminator Captain but only gains 1 attack and a psychic power but has far less customisation options)

 

Brother Captain – 130 (In line with the above change)

 

Chaplain - 124 (In line with the above change)

 

Paladin ancient  - 120 (In line with the above change)

 

Brotherhood ancient - 108 (In line with the above change)

 

Brotherhood Champion - 93 (In line with the above change)

 

Librarian – 137 (in line with the Space Marine Librarian in Terminator Armour which currently is 40 points cheaper than the Grey Knights version)

 

Techmarine – 70 (We currently pay an exorbitant increase over a Space Marine Techmarine for a single psychic power)

 

Strike Squad – 18 ppm

 

Purgation Squad -17 ppm (they have the same stat line of strike squad, but can't deep strike. Carrying ut to four special weapons doesn't worth, if the special weapons are so bad as they are now)

 

Purifier Squad – 19 ppm (without any change they are only overpriced no deep striking strike squad)

 

Interceptor Squad - 20 ppm (In line with the above change)

 

Terminator Squad – 36 ppm (you should consider that in 8th a 2+ armour save can't be considered as in previous edition. now every weapon with at least -1 AP can modify it. The cost of Terminator squad should reflect this change).

 

Nemesis Dreadknight - 110 (In line with the above change)

 

Daemonhammer – 10

 

Psilencer – 5 (PAGK), 10 (TDA) (based on current weapon stats & the fact PAGKs sacrifice NFW to take these)

 

Incinerator – 2 (PAGK), 5 (TDA) (based on current weapon stats & the fact PAGKs sacrifice NFW to take these)

 

Psycannon – 5 (PAGK), 10 (TDA) (based on current weapon stats & the fact PAGKs sacrifice NFW to take these)

 

Gatling Psilencer – 20 (based on current weapon stats)

 

Heavy Psycannon – 20 (based on current weapon stats)

 

Heavy Incinerator – 20 (based on current weapon stats)

 

 

Rules changes (non sono convinto che le prenderanno mai in considerazione ma alla fine tanto vale provare)

 

Lord Caldo Draigo: D10 - No point increase

 

Psychic Powers

 

All Character that is also an HQ choice can use the regular version of smite, in line with the army released after GK codex. 

 

Librarian knows 3 powers plus Smite, casts 3 powers, denies 3 powers. In this case his price should increase to 150.

Grand Master knows 2 powers plus Smite, casts 2 powers, denies 1 power. In this case his price should increase to 143.

Brother Captain knows 2 powers plus Smite, casts 1 power, denies 1 power. In this case his price should increase to 133.

(This provides a bit more variation on the psychic strength of the more experienced of the Chapter.)

 

General Rules

 

Lord Caldo Draigo: Master Tactician: If your army is Battle-forged, you receive an additional 2 Command Points if Lord Caldo Draigo is your Warlord.

 

Castellian Crowe: Gains the perfect warrior. He can use both stances together - No point increase

 

Brother captain gains Tactical precision rule - In this case his price should increase to 135.

 

Brotherhood Champion: he can take every weapon from Titan melee weapons list.

 

Librarian: 

 

Dreadknight Armour ignores -1 to hit when moving (look at the support struts on the arms, there’s no way it should be affected by recoil).  - No points increase 

 

Purifiers get 2 attacks base and increase Smite range to 6” (as they are now, they are completely useless as you will almost never be in range to use your Smite. Ever)  In this case their price should increase to 22 ppm.

 

Paladines get Command squad bodyguards special rule. - No points increase  

 

Psycannons, Incinerators and Psilencers (including Heavy versions) do Mortal Wound on a to wound roll of 6+ and Psycannon should have AP -3 as for Assault cannon, if these changes are made then points cost drop on Psycannons/Incinerators from current cost to 10 for PAGK and 15 for TDA. Point drop for Psylencer should be 7 for PAGK and 12 for TDA. Heavy Versions should be 25 points each

 

Make Terminators Ld 8 (this will make such a small difference in-game but it is infuriating from a fluff perspective. The Codex states that as soon as a Grey Knight completes his training, he is the equal of other Chapters’ most seasoned veterans but this is not reflected in our Terminators having the lowest Leadership of all other Terminators)

 

Moreover we need something that every time the opponent use a Command Point on a 5+ allow as to gain a Command Point. You should insert a new stratagem to allow us to launch a powers for the second time during the same turn and drop the price of psybolt ammunition and psychic onslaught to 1 CP. It could be useful if when the Teleportarium stratagem is used the unit subject of the stratagem is not considered in reserve. 


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#10
Holier Than Thou

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Not much more to add than what I put in my original post.

 

http://www.bolterand...ck-to-gw/page-2



#11
the jeske

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There is a ton of stuff that could/should be changed. Units should feel and work different, right now the 4[can you imagine I wrote 3, forgetting about purfires initialy] power armored units and the 2 termintor armed ones are clones of each other. And when the points costs are in favor of  one GW, invalidates the rest. Although I do not think that those will changed without a new codex or a new. So I would not concentrate on asking for stuff like that to change. CP cost of stratas, different rules, more/different psychic powers etc. All would be nice, all would be a good way to fix stuff, Non will happen.

 

The closest thing to a possible fix, and I think even that would be a real streatch for GW to do. Is to do something[aka lower] the cost of gear. GK stuff is not used by other armies so a sudden change of psycannon cost is not suddenly going to blow up the meta. Free incinerators, half cost on psycannons/psi lancers. I don't think there is a chance for rules of those weapons to be changed. A half cost psycannon on a razorback would actually be ok. Lower cost of weapons [for which power armored GK lose their melee weapons, which are not free] would at least let GK player entertain the idea of using something else then falchion strikes. Am not saying this would fix GK or that suddenly catapult them to the highest of tiers, but at least people that want to use purificators or interceptors would feel as if they are shoting themselfs in the foot each time they play.

 

 

So ask for one thing[imo the weapon cost is the only thing possible to get], a wall of changes, even if well though through and tested, is just going to get ignored or putin the "interesting" bin.


"Felix wondered how Calgar might feel about the primach's unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older space marines were numbered."


#12
Captain Coolpants

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I truly believe there is too much that we all want changing for GW to act upon any of it. We're basically wanting a codex rewrite.

Obviously our psychic phase needs a change, we went from a very special army with special powers in 6th,to slightly less special in 7th, to just smite spam in 8th (which every army has some form of access too). This WILL NOT be fixed by giving us full smite, that would just make us just as boring and we'll become the equivalent of those primaris psyker armies.
As whats already been suggested, give us some 'communion of psykers' rule, so any buff affects the caster and a unit/units if they are within x inches, maybe they also have to cast the same ability to help balance instead of auto being affected?

Command points are also a very big thing, yet we are only ever able to get no more than 4/5 in a normal size game? Give use some unique detachments that make cp much easier to obtain maybe?

Obviously our special weapons also need a looking at, they are really all just garbage and overpriced.
Flamers In general need a range increase due to all the 9" away from enemies deployment rules.

Since incinerators are currently useless for a whole turn at least after deepstriking (which is the only way we work) they need a drastic points drop, I'm tempted to even say free on power armour as they give up a storm bolter AND a force weapon which they pay for.

Psycannons are largely useless, they are a heavy weapon, that don't do heavy damage, but have all the heavy negatives. I mean a plasma gun... It's actually cheaper than a psycannon, same strength, is assault, and much better ap AND can overcharge and only replaces a standard bolter.
On that basis alone the psycannon should be reduced to 7pts or made D2 with less ap or made into assault that still costs less.

Psilencers are weird as well... Priced well in my opinion, but meant to be anti horde, but does D3 damage, which is usually redundant on hordes, so is actually better at taking pot shots at tanks since pretty much everything is wounded on 5s now.
I'd actually like to see it increased by 3pts and have its ap reduced by 1 and strength increased by 1 (remember power armour gives up a force weapon that it already pays for, and is heavy so will be - 1 to hit).


I'd also like a change in the force weapons, at the moment, maths tells us that falchions are just the best most of the time, up unit toughest 7 or something. Maybe have force weapons cost something again? Or don't auto include the cost on the GK stats (would actually help power armour with their current heavy weapons issues too).
Only have the force weapons price differ by 1 or 2 pts. 1 or 2 points doesn't sound a lot, but when you consider a whole army can have them, it can make a difference of 20/30pts. So will definitely allow more variation between weapons being chosen.

That's it for kit. Now on to units themselves!

The most glaring of annoyances, is the simple fact that no matter what units we pick, they all do the exact same thing, everything is just a clone with point differences.

Purifiers, they used to be cool with an extra attack and a cool cleansing flame ability that they could use in CC, then they received an arguably better, nova cleansing flame after that. Now they just have regular smite, with a downright pathetic range. To be honest, I don't even care of the range was 50 million inches, it's still just another boring smite to add to the list of smites in our army.
Gives them a cool cleansing flame power back. Make it 9", 2d6 shots that wound stuff on a 4+ or something.
They also need that extra attack back!

Librarians need to be cheaper, and (although I say it's boring) need to have full smite like any other librarian!

Techmarines are just a joke, we all know why.

Grandmasters need to have a rule that allows extra cp each turn and a price decrease, because at the moment, you're always better off just spending an extra 50pts and getting him a DK armour, but the DKGM is absolutely not undercosted, so leave him as is.

Paladin ancients need a small decrease in points, no more that 20.

Apothecaries are actually good. Leave them alone.

Dreadknights, I'd very much like more movement on them, as the degradation chart really does beat him up, or maybe a 'emperors light' rule that auto heals a wound each turn? Very much like daemon engines.
Other than that, a huuuge price drop in weapons. Literally by half for everything shooty. And obviously a change to make the psycannon/psilencer in line with the other proposed changes.


Brother captains need either a points decrease, or maybe they get the " communion on psykers" rule mentioned earlier, and everytime he casts a power it also affects units with 6" of him? Instead of his current boring smite enabler.

I'd like more access to heavy incinerators/heavy psycannons/heavy psilencers on vehicles. Makes us more unique, and will actually be worth it if the previous changes to those weapons are made.

Purgation squads are just strike squads with extra heavy options.. So again just a clone. Maybe give them an old relentless ability, or an in built Astral aim that ignore cover modifiers, or an ability that allows them to shoot twice if stationary, orrr literally anything to make them notably different from strike squads...

Edited by Captain Coolpants, 06 December 2017 - 03:00 PM.

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#13
Prot

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So since this is all over the place... and there are great suggestions, I think we have to pair it down because Captain is right, this has become a codex rewrite.

 

Let's try a critical change list. Take your top 5 changes. We will have to vote on the most popular items from these personal lists, and compile them into the top post. 

 

If you agree with someone's top 5 (or part of it), repeat it, or if you think it should have a tweak added to it, please do so. We need to not only shorten this, but agree on it. (IE: I'm not going to a include an item 2 people want, if 10 want something different.) So agreement is important here (if we can't agree on the most important changes, I don't think we can expect GW to do the same.)


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#14
Holier Than Thou

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So since this is all over the place... and there are great suggestions, I think we have to pair it down because Captain is right, this has become a codex rewrite.

 

Let's try a critical change list. Take your top 5 changes. We will have to vote on the most popular items from these personal lists, and compile them into the top post. 

 

If you agree with someone's top 5 (or part of it), repeat it, or if you think it should have a tweak added to it, please do so. We need to not only shorten this, but agree on it. (IE: I'm not going to a include an item 2 people want, if 10 want something different.) So agreement is important here (if we can't agree on the most important changes, I don't think we can expect GW to do the same.)

 

1. Points costs across the board (if done right this could mean changes to weapon profiles/stats/etc are not required)

 

2. Psychic Powers affect caster and additional unit within 3"

 

3. Dreadknights ignore -1 penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons

 

4. Psybolt ammo as a wargear upgrade for Stormbolters (on infantry only) rather than stratagem (we are command point-starved as it is)

 

5. Shrouding rule gives -1 to hit (Infantry only) at >24", gives us a measure of protection at ranges where we are completely powerless due to our short-ranged weaponry



#15
Gentlemanloser

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1. Points adjustments including weapons.

2. Changes to units to make them distinct. Like Purifiers getting 2A back.

3. Psychic Power changes. Like letting GoI work on a character and bodyguard unit.

4. Strat and Relic changes. So strats arent just bland C&P of SM strats and the Liber isn't the worst relic in the game.

Too generic a list?
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#16
Waking Dreamer

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As I pointed out originally

1. I agree on the points drop for our special weapons, as well as the Psycannon to be D2 for damage (agreeing with RD there)...should points drop for them need to be more specific though?

As much as I would like more enhanced improvements on our special weapons... the above I actually think can be feasibly changed. I don't want to venture into codex rewrites or wish listing here.

2. Agreeing with cheaper stratagem. At least Psybolt, and Onslaught need to be 1CP each. Heed the Prog. possibly as well.

3. Agree on better UTILITY on our psychic powers. GKs were never about the mind bullets...unless they were about banishing and smiting Daemons. Instead, have GOI, Sanctuary and Hammerhand affect the chosen unit PLUS 1 other unit 3" from the original unit casted on. Tweaked here a little - so not necessarily limited to the caster's proximity for the additional affected unit but 2 separate units not including the caster.

4. Purifiers/Crowe's smite need tweaking (the least used of the PAGKs, therefore more attention required/critical). Increase smite range to minimum 6" (possibly 9" as RD suggested). Indirectly encourages use of BrotherCaps as they would make tempting 12"-18" d6 smite combos.

@ GML, I think that is too generic a list.

Edited by Waking Dreamer, 06 December 2017 - 06:18 PM.


#17
Corvus Fortis

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First of all, I suggest we need to present problems not solutions. We can, of course, include possible solution, but first of all - problems. Moreover, I believe we should explain how these problems affect our gameplay and why exactly they make life of a Grey Knight player so hard. Examples or real game experience would certainly be helpful too. I completely agree, wishlisting has to be avoided. Please, don't forget that GW probably sure we play open and matched play too (even if we actually do not) and considers this when balancing rules. Therefore, I am sure that they will not make any exceptions for GK in terms of matched play restrictions. To tell the truth, I do not think, that matched play restiricitons really hurt us. On the contrary they force us use something more than "deepstrike everything and spam vortex". As for me, it made me use transports and think where to use which power. Anyway, I am sure anyone will agree that our psychic phase is descent. Not broken, probably, like some other armies, but do we really want to be broken. And when a unit with a certain psychic power is destroyed, another one takes its place and having same powers on two units becomes not so useless after all. In short, GW can answer to some of our questions "just play narrative" or "ally some other imperium stuff" but I am sure they will never say "just do not take garbage units". So, again, pointing on internal balance, in my opinion, is a key. 

 

Ok, these are just my thoughts. Now for top-5 Codex: Grey Knights problems. 

 

1. Overall overpricing.

 

Some units just too expensive for what they do (Techmarines, Servitors, Chaplains, Librarians, Purifiers, Anients). Other units are nice, but not doing their job as good as counterparts (NDKs, Terminators, GMs). We pay too much for units just because of psychic powers (compare too Codex: Space Marines counterparts). Decreasing costs of our units will free space for other choices in our lists, making, for exampe, trasports a viable option. And having more transports will solve problems with reserve units limit and turn 1 safety. I consider overpricing is GK's main problem  so far.

 

2. CP starving.

 

If I recall it correctly, we are the only army that doesn't have a way of gaining CP other that from detachments. Every army have a way to return command points either through warlord traits, relics or characters. The irony is that GK do not have cheap troops to easily fill detachment requirements. So the only army that cannot have CP other than from detachments cannot fill requirements for these detachments as easy as other armies can. This forces GK to use only critical stratagems like Heed the Prognosticars, Psybolt Ammunition, Psychic Onslaught, Psychic Communion, Teleportarium, in decisive moments probably command re-roll and counter-attack, making usable set of stratagems very small and unvariable. I see too solutions here - either decrease costs of stratagems or give a way to return them. Personaly, I liked idea with Grand Strategies. If this rule apply only to GM in TDA and will not stack, it would make TDA Grandmaster a decent choice without breaking the game. 

 

3. Broken Heavy Weapons.

 

Psilencers are nice. I won't say decent or strong, just nice. They can hurt a bit both hordes and vehicles, but just a bit. In 7th it was gamble weapon for one-shoting multi-wound monsters. Now they can scary only terminators and primaris guys. Only scary, barely hurt. But they are ok. Cheap, shooty, deal damage with lucky roles.

 

Incinerators are strong. They can hurt t4-5-6. And they can be dangerous in large numbers. But they will never be because of their cost. This weapon is out of sync with deepstriking units. Incinerators must be delivered via transports. And they are too expensive for what they do. Expensive weapon in of expensive army that is out of sync with it. It costs twice more than a psilencer and has 3 times less potential damage. Heavy incinerator is even worse. It is twice more expensive than a standart incinerator but only gain +1 damage and +4 range. Psilencer costs twice less, but has twice more range, twice more max. shots and 1.5 times more potential damage. 2 more S is not as critical as it used to be. I was prepearing for upcoming tournament and realised that twin lascannon costs only 10 points more than heavy incinerator but way-way better against most targets (except only t3 low save hordes but not much). So why to take heavy incinerator if heavy psycannon and gatling psilencer is better almost in everything and costs more? H. Incinerator needs either to be reworked (2d6 hits? It is twinlinked, check the model) or cost at least 30 pts.

 

Finally, psycannon. It was a heavy infantry killer and light vehicle destroyer back then in 7th. It was tranfered straightforward to 8th loosing it's roll like... at all. Not enough shots to deal with light infantry, not enough AP to deal with heavy infantry, not enough damage to deal with vehicles. The easiest solution, I think, is to give it d2. With Psychic Onslaught it will become more dangerous for vehicles, primaris and TEQs. It will still need a point cost drop. Actually, I think that 10 pts is fair cost for all of GK special weapons (4 for PA).  If it had Rending-like rule back, I agree with 20 pts cost.

 

4. Crowe and Purifiers.

 

Crowe is simply not effective against anything. He doesn't have deepstike, doesn't have stances, has no AP and only S4, d1. So he is not effective against neither heavy infantry, no vehicles. He has only 5 attacks and generates bonus attacks only for successul to-wound rolls. In perfect situation it will deal 10 wounds per fighting phase. A brotherhood champion is cheaper and perfectly deals 12 wounds per fighting phase (only to single-multiwound target). And BC is cheaper, has +1 to-wound for stances and his sword is AP-3. Yes, Crowe can kill more 1-wound models but only if he 1)succesfully hits everything (very likely because of rerollable 2+), 2)successfuly wounds everyone (also likely but not as much because 3+/4+ re-rollable is not as reliable) 3) hits and wounds everything again (very unlikely even with rerolls) 4) not a single model will make a save (very unlikely because most horde untis will have 5+ save). But a simble strike squad with stormbolters will most likely do even better damage to a such a  unit. So what is the point in taking Crowe? If he could have perfect warrior and ignore any armor save on a roll of 6+, he would be much more interesting.

 

Purifiers are just Strike Squad which doesn't fill battalion slot requirements (remeber how CP are important to GK). It also cannot deepstike and cannot smite after deepstike. +1 Ld is not critical, neither is ability to have to more special weapons (especially as they are now). Purifying flame seems to be strong, but only 3" range makes it only possible to cast very close to important unit. This means it is almost impossible to cast in on turn 1. Even if purifiers are in range turn 2, even if their target is destroyed, they will be out of smite range again. It will take 1-2 more turns to reach another unit to cast Smite on. And no one is safe from bad rolls for the nubmer of wounds. So strike squad, that is better in everything, can deal on average almost the same damage through the course of the game. Let's assume a game takes 5 turns and both purifier squad and strike squad survive through the course of the game. Because of deepstriking turn 1 a strike squad will most likely always be in range of Smite (12" + movement or even advance). If it cast Smite every turn, it will deal 5 mortal wounds. Purifiers deal 3-4 MW on average. Let's consider they are in range every second turn. So they will deal 6-8 mortal wounds on average. Only 3 MW better than a simple strike squad. If purifiers had range of 6, they instantly would become much more powerful. Combining them with BC will make them turn 1 casters like a strike squad. They would be still hard to deliver to target, they would cost more and they wouldn't fill detachment requirements. But they would be worth their cost. 

 

5. Domina Liber Demonica.

 

Literally the worst relic in game so far. I bet, no one ever will take one even in a friendly game. Ok, probably in an open play to mass-purge a daemon unit. But we will easily destroy a daemon force anyway (except brimstone spam). If it gived extrapower to know from sanctic, it would be even interesting to consider (imagine combining it with lore-master on GMNDK).

 

 

I know, I repeated myself a lot and there is a bit too much of text probably. So let's look through it again:

 

1.Overpriced units.

2.Not enought CP while CP are important.

3.Special weapons either overpriced or do not have a role.

4.Crowe is Brotherhood Champion but worse. Purifiers are strike squads but worse. 

5.There is no situation in which Liber Demonica would be more useful than any other GK relic. Even outside of matched play.

 

Suggested solutions:

 

1.Decrease costs.

2.Decrease stratagem costs or give a way to return CP.

3.Reduce costs of both Incinerator weapons. Give Psycannon d2.

4.Give Crowe a way to ignore armor save and BC's stances. Increase purifying flame's range to 6". Give purifiers 1 more attack per model and even maybe a second psychic power.

5.Give Liber Demonica old rules from 7th edition.


  • SyNidus, Gentlemanloser and Waking Dreamer like this

#18
Plasmablasts

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I believe the Hellhound Inferno Canon changed from Heavy d6 D2 to Heavy 2d6 D1 between the Index and Codex: Astra Militarum, maintaining its average damage against multi-wound units but improving its utility against single-wound hordes, so that would be a good precedent for a simple buff to the heavy incinerator.

#19
Zamtro

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Just gonna bump this - Is anyone confident in their ability to write a short, concise statement that people can start sending to GW based on the above? Can't be so long that they won't bother reading and needs to be constructive rather than destructive?



#20
Danarc

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Just gonna bump this - Is anyone confident in their ability to write a short, concise statement that people can start sending to GW based on the above? Can't be so long that they won't bother reading and needs to be constructive rather than destructive?

in feedback to GW you can find two different letter sent to GW. Probably almost one of this is also published in this topic.

#21
STTAB

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*Noob wading in*

I really like the concept of Capt. Mytre's brotherhood tactics.

Maybe this is an elegant win/win option...

A new set of data cards including the strategem for 1cp...

"Before the start of turn 1 pick a brotherhood tactic if your army only consists of Grey Knights (and inquisition)"

So GW can sell you a pack of cards (high margin) with the strategem and brotherhood cards. You get to pick your solution per battle, giving you a nice toolset for a tournament setting and rewarding mono builds without soup armies being able to take the benefits.

I really like all of Capt. Mytre's suggestions of Brotherhood traits, inspired by the descriptions in the codex.

With Grey Knights being about the poorest faction CP wise I don't think any of the brotherhood tactics should relate to CP gain but rather one should be dedicated to enemy CP/strategem denial. For example;

"4th Brotherhood, the Prescient Brethren. Assign one unnamed Grand Master as the Grand Master of the Prescient Brethren. Each time the enemy uses a strategem roll 1D6. On a 4 or 5 the cost to the enemy is +1CP, on a 6 the strategem is denied and the Command points are lost. When the assigned Grandmaster is killed the power is lost."

As this is a reward for mono builds, the brotherhood traits should focus on plugging holes where GK are lacking rather than enhancing existing strengths. Maybe a buff for less efficient units.

Also, how about;

"3rd Brotherhood, The Wardmakers. Rule of 2. Each power from the sanctic discipline can be used twice per turn"

Thoughts?

#22
Kruso

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I just want to get rid of anti-daemon rules in Matched Play and give us something else in return. Something that is useful against all armies/and/or unit types. Lack of CP is an issue and Psychic Onslaught and Psybolt ammo stratagems feel too expensive yet crucial. I'd also like to see every army get unit that can infiltrate during deployment. Those are really important in competitive play and not all armies have access to them, unless they go soup. Some old style servo-skulls perhaps.


-Heresy grows from idleness-


#23
STTAB

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The 2nd Brotherhood specialises in rapid deployment.

"2nd Brotherhood, Blades of Victory. At the start of the first battle round but before the first turn, Grey Knights infantry can move up to (unit M) in any direction, provided that it does not end within 7" of the enemy. In addition DS infantry can set up more than 7" from enemy units AFTER turn 1.

#24
Ichar

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With the amount of complaining that all of the other players are doing about their armies, no wonder GW doesn’t respond to the GK. I have already seen Blood Angel and Dark Angel complaints all over the place, and it isn’t even playability. Both codexes appear fluffy with some powerful combos and point reductions, not to mention addition of powerful new units like Cataphractii and Contemptor Dreadnoughts. Warlord traits that allow the warlord to target characters as snipers, Hammerhand on charging units (or charged, or heroically intervened), etc. I am sure it is very hard to hear legitimate concerns over endless nit picking.

Edited by Ichar, 10 December 2017 - 04:22 PM.


#25
FrenchKnight

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Hello everybody :)

I read post on this forum everydays for 3 years now :) And it's the first time i post myself (and Sorry for my  english, explanations are in my nickname :)
I play GK for 4 years now. i play every weekeed and do some local championship (In paris, so i fight agains't :cussty, OP, scary list agains't a lot of "That guy" -_-).

 GK  in the 7th was really a pain in the ass for me. but i stick with this army because i love the style, fluff and because big.E needs us. So i m happy to see GK in 8 th is a way less dreadfull to play.

Somewhat, i have the feeling we are not OP, and not :cussty too. We are just a way too much boring in an edition who give wonderfully fun tricks and mechanics to other army.
This is my thought and feelings for what we need :

1 ) Be a little bit scarier in CC whith our core units : overall our troops are not very scarry at CC. i have many situations in i struggle in units because i rely on one attack only. I equiped falshion on all my troups but i don't feel like the real killing elite warrior i want to be with this army. They are better firing the assault bolter than rush in  CC... strange feelings.

2) Do something special for our psychic : Yes we are well balanced in terms of "mortal wounds". we can do a little and  with great power comes great weakness ( purifier for exemple). But we pay a high price for that for every units, and our units needs a lot on  psychic buff... So the rules of one seems  not fair to us. I really want the rules of one stay for mortal wounds abilitty but i want a new system for buff ability ( +1 for difficulty per casting ?)


3) Have some cool rules for units: Seriously when i win a tournament it's only because i play the same OP units list  and have some good dice with my DS. I don't want broken rules, juste some love on units like interceptor or purgator. they have no real flavour like our "+1 to cast -1 to cast". Not bad but boring.

I don't want better long range weaponry, it's not our style . I don't want a decrease ( okay mayyybe for the techmarines XD) in point cost. We are an elite army. But i want  GW to create cool rules that impact our units and makes them match with their actual point cost. ( and maybe a thing for regen our CP :3)


I like to play this army, mostly because i love the theme. For exemple,  i m in love with purifiers.
In fun games i put two squad in a land raider reedemer with Castellan crow  and use a portal on it. I m generaly dead in 3 turns but sometimes when the Emprah look at my dices i do crazy stuff with that :)

So, thank you guys for doing this letter,
i hope this will help a little :)









 







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