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To the attention of all Swordbrothers.


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#51
Marshal_Roujakis

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I'm already perturbed by the sheer amount of changes to the lore of Templars that has changed in the span of 5 years that I'm starting to think that Tzeentch is manning the design team for GW... from praying to the "God-Emperor", the ups and downs to the number of active Templars, and now taking a knee to witches and asking that we have a Librarius back... I'm actually at the point where I feel that GW might actually change the Templar lore to accost to the changes happening with 40k lore in general... suddenly giving us access to Primaris Librarians, making Templars incompetent in the eyes of Primarchs, and lacking in zeal...

 

The rules definitely have changed, some have remained similar to the old lore of 4th ed., but majority have been replaced sometimes for the better, majority of the times for the meh...

 

And even though we have had a kit that has been our upgrade sprue for the last decade or so, GW didn't exactly improve in regards to upgrade parts, leaving only 1-2 torso parts and no parts for Dreadnoughts or vehicles for other Chapters that don't have their own Codex... with the only exception being the Black Templars... no other army out there with their own Codex has had a wider range of upgrade parts...

 

And this is what worries me about taking action and asking to be in the cross hairs of GW... they could literally screw us and give the excuse that this is what we said we wanted... we could say that we want something to be done in the Psychic phase since we're being over-powered by Librarians, and they'd give us witches with the excuse that Templars got their Librarius back due to Guilliman... we could ask for a better kit and we'd have 1 sprue costing more than half of the price of the current set, but only having 2 swords, 10 shoulder pads and 3 heads... sure quality over quantity... sometimes, but it doesn't change the fact that those just starting the hobby would have a severe lack of Templar upgrade parts if GW takes the Templar upgrade sprue out of the shelf... the old guard has had enough of that kit, but those just starting will have only little in terms of how to upgrade their standard Marines to Crusaders...

 

We could also ask for better rules to things, but they could also just absolutely wreck the game or our army some more, by giving us rules that don't really fit our description or play style...

 

idk guys, currently speaking I'd rather have nothing happen to us, than GW take a huge dump at us and call that as giving us what we wanted... 


Edited by Marshal_Roujakis, 08 December 2017 - 12:02 PM.

'No matter the laurels of victory, no matter the glories others may seek. We are Space Marines, the Adeptus Astartes, the Angels of Death! And more than this.' he said, his voice dropping quiet.
'We are Black Templars. Victory is its own reward.'

- High Marshal Helbrecht - 'The Crusader' - Crusade to the Ghoul Stars -

 

Spoiler

 

++The Vengeance Crusade Thread++


#52
Sete

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They already have been screwing us.
We got nothing to lose.
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#53
Marshal_Roujakis

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They already have been screwing us.
We got nothing to lose.

 

ummm... yes we do... how about army identity?

 

As it stands, we aren't that screwed, they still have us around, we are actually quite powerful, but our niches are sort of gone...

we have access to stuff that all other Chapters have access to, and then some... we still have our Special Characters, and I still can't field Librarians if I run Templars unless I ally them...

 

We could literally lose all that under GW magnifying glass... sure we can petition, but remember when we asked a lot of attention back in 5th ed. and as an answer GW rolled us into C:SM?

 

and the old guard here at BnC made this email asking why we lost our Codex and their reply was: Because you guys said you wanted all the new toys too...

 

YEAH! That can most certainly happen again... except maybe this time around they'll just toss us more Primaris stuff... and we all know that Primaris just focuses on shooting... GW has its eyes set on Primaris and all the other Codices that aren't done yet... I feel that since they aren't done with that and we are already crying about mistreatment, they'll just toss us disdain... we actually have plenty to lose if GW decides Templars aren't really worth anything in the long run... especially if they see that there aren't new Templar players, and that majority of the income from C:SM comes from other Chapters....

 

we might get a signature of 3000 petitioners... but in total in comparison to others from other factions, that might be too small a number... DA and maybe Space Wolves and Tau are up next... in comparison to the number of members we have here, how many SW and Tau players do you guys think are out there in your communities... I mean, kudos for trying, but I think this will actually be an uphill battle...

 

This petition and Crusade for GW would be better done once all the Codices have been released... look at Chapter Approved as an example... we petitioned them for cheaper LRC on their Facebook page, instead we got a pricier Land Raider Crusader...

They can still screw us some more... I just don't want to tempt them...


'No matter the laurels of victory, no matter the glories others may seek. We are Space Marines, the Adeptus Astartes, the Angels of Death! And more than this.' he said, his voice dropping quiet.
'We are Black Templars. Victory is its own reward.'

- High Marshal Helbrecht - 'The Crusader' - Crusade to the Ghoul Stars -

 

Spoiler

 

++The Vengeance Crusade Thread++


#54
Sete

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I disagree with you roujakis.
Asking to be ignored is the worst of the 2 evils.
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#55
Reinhard

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I'll have to agree with Sete here. Ignoring us will breed apathy towards the Templar brand on both sides. This in turn I feel will make it even more likely for them to streamline us further down the line.


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#56
varg_vikernes

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I'm also agree with Sete...

 

 

BUT unfortunately my guys, until now , numbers are talking so clearly, we're too few signers, players. 250 signers. Now.

 

 

Right now, me and my team are trying to contact some of the admins of the biggest pages,groups of facebook to gather some concrete feedback, ideas, different points of view, and probably some help for a good english.


Edited by varg_vikernes, 08 December 2017 - 06:00 PM.


#57
Marshal_Roujakis

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I'm also agree with Sete...

 

 

BUT unfortunately my guys, until now , numbers are talking so clearly, we're too few signers, players. 250 signers. Now.

 

 

Right now, me and my team are trying to contact some of the admins of the biggest pages,groups of facebook to gather some concrete feedback, ideas, different points of view, and probably some help for a good english.

 

That's the thing though... even in my local area, there has only ever been 2 Templar players... and none new since the roll into the Codex... I just don't think that even if we spread the news worldwide, we won't really have the numbers for it... a lot of the Veteran players here left as well after the fold... none here took the rolling into the Codex lightly, and we made quite a show of force to it by using our wallets as statement and stopped purchasing GW products unless we get a Codex back...

GW reply was: "We thought this is what you guys wanted, access to new stuff, getting up to date and keeping your old stuff... so we rolled you into the Codex: Space Marines..."

I'm just saying as well, that this could also harm the Templar fan base, just as much as help us... so I'm just asking that we think about this first before jumping down the barrel and regretting it later on...

 

We can definitely get their attention, as for it being a good attention or a bad attention we will just have to wait and see... and if it does become bad, I think Templars might be a minority enough that they can ignore us pouting and rallying and just tell us once more that: "Isn't this what you guys wanted?"


Edited by Marshal_Roujakis, 08 December 2017 - 06:19 PM.

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'No matter the laurels of victory, no matter the glories others may seek. We are Space Marines, the Adeptus Astartes, the Angels of Death! And more than this.' he said, his voice dropping quiet.
'We are Black Templars. Victory is its own reward.'

- High Marshal Helbrecht - 'The Crusader' - Crusade to the Ghoul Stars -

 

Spoiler

 

++The Vengeance Crusade Thread++


#58
varg_vikernes

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I'm also agree with Sete...

 

 

BUT unfortunately my guys, until now , numbers are talking so clearly, we're too few signers, players. 250 signers. Now.

 

 

Right now, me and my team are trying to contact some of the admins of the biggest pages,groups of facebook to gather some concrete feedback, ideas, different points of view, and probably some help for a good english.

 

That's the thing though... even in my local area, there has only ever been 2 Templar players... and none new since the roll into the Codex... I just don't think that even if we spread the news worldwide, we won't really have the numbers for it... a lot of the Veteran players here left as well after the fold... none here took the rolling into the Codex lightly, and we made quite a show of force to it by using our wallets as statement and stopped purchasing GW products unless we get a Codex back...

GW reply was: "We thought this is what you guys wanted, access to new stuff, getting up to date and keeping your old stuff... so we rolled you into the Codex: Space Marines..."

I'm just saying as well, that this could also harm the Templar fan base, just as much as help us... so I'm just asking that we think about this first before jumping down the barrel and regretting it later on...

 

We can definitely get their attention, as for it being a good attention or a bad attention we will just have to wait and see... and if it does become bad, I think Templars might be a minority enough that they can ignore us pouting and rallying and just tell us once more that: "Isn't this what you guys wanted?"

 

Oh come on Marshall.

 

Let's  Imagine one second to have in your left hand an army rich, competitve, often updated like Ultramarines, in the other hand an army old, inefficient, hard to play not so much characterized like Black templars.

ME, today, if i can choose again, unfortunately, i will not choose Black templars again! Today what Keep me letteraly strong attached to Black Templars is the love for the Background, the heroes, the community with his way of talking, doing things... and the fact that i've already painted big part of my black guys ahahahha

 

WHY : today a should a guy start Black Templars? There's no a particulary reason, excluding Background and Colours choose.



#59
Sete

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250 people buying 2 boxes of let's say a new Primaris Crusader Squad at 35 quid each makes 17500£ .
The Templar FB group has 800 members.
That's 56000£.

I pretty sure that covers costs. And most of us would but a lot more than 2 boxes.
Players bandwagoning" would cover the costs by far.

In the Twitter poll of most popular successor chapter BT crushed it with FT way behind.
It's a gold mine. Someone in the company must like us tho.

#60
varg_vikernes

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250 people buying 2 boxes of let's say a new Primaris Crusader Squad at 35 quid each makes 17500£ .
The Templar FB group has 800 members.
That's 56000£.

I pretty sure that covers costs. And most of us would but a lot more than 2 boxes.
Players bandwagoning" would cover the costs by far.

In the Twitter poll of most popular successor chapter BT crushed it with FT way behind.
It's a gold mine. Someone in the company must like us tho.

 

Let's immagine no new kit, or units.

 

Only a pdf, digital supplement of 1-2 pages. Price 10€-15€ .... money with 0 effort, or expense.



#61
redmapa

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All we need is some sort of rule that boosts our units in close combat, I mean look at BA and even their tacticals can pack a punch in CC and we need something like that. Vows would be perfect for it, it requires a character and they could be auras if they were affraid to give us too much power, which is understandable. My most ambitious dream would be an upgrade kit that allows us to make unique units out of generic kits and the return of Vows so we can change a bit the way YOUR army plays like it was in 4th-5th ed.

 

We seriously dont need much but for what its worth I think we should all send the petition via twitter to GW, maybe it'll give the impression of us being larger than what we truly are.


++NO PITY.NO REMORSE.NO FEAR++
++Light your way in the darkness with the pyres of burning heretics.++
 
 

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And we'll keep on fighting
Till the end
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#62
allegedlynerdy

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I personally don't like the push towards primaris...my big concern would be if they gave us a new upgrade kit, it'd be primaris only and we'd lose the old one. I have nothing against primaris, I just don't plan on Collecting then any time soon.
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#63
Sete

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Primaris are the future of SM unfortunately.
I agree that we need some punch in CC without using Special Chars.

#64
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I'm also agree with Sete...


BUT unfortunately my guys, until now , numbers are talking so clearly, we're too few signers, players. 250 signers. Now.


Right now, me and my team are trying to contact some of the admins of the biggest pages,groups of facebook to gather some concrete feedback, ideas, different points of view, and probably some help for a good english.

That's the thing though... even in my local area, there has only ever been 2 Templar players... and none new since the roll into the Codex... I just don't think that even if we spread the news worldwide, we won't really have the numbers for it... a lot of the Veteran players here left as well after the fold... none here took the rolling into the Codex lightly, and we made quite a show of force to it by using our wallets as statement and stopped purchasing GW products unless we get a Codex back...
GW reply was: "We thought this is what you guys wanted, access to new stuff, getting up to date and keeping your old stuff... so we rolled you into the Codex: Space Marines..."
I'm just saying as well, that this could also harm the Templar fan base, just as much as help us... so I'm just asking that we think about this first before jumping down the barrel and regretting it later on...

We can definitely get their attention, as for it being a good attention or a bad attention we will just have to wait and see... and if it does become bad, I think Templars might be a minority enough that they can ignore us pouting and rallying and just tell us once more that: "Isn't this what you guys wanted?"
Oh come on Marshall.

Let's Imagine one second to have in your left hand an army rich, competitve, often updated like Ultramarines, in the other hand an army old, inefficient, hard to play not so much characterized like Black templars.
ME, today, if i can choose again, unfortunately, i will not choose Black templars again! Today what Keep me letteraly strong attached to Black Templars is the love for the Background, the heroes, the community with his way of talking, doing things... and the fact that i've already painted big part of my black guys ahahahha

WHY : today a should a guy start Black Templars? There's no a particulary reason, excluding Background and Colours choose.
Crusader Squad and Crusader’s Helm.

I can show you the math if you want but the Crusader Squad Points for Point as good as specializad Units. Vangaurd&Pack w/o PowSwords and Crusader Squad (Equal Neo-Init Ratio) are point for point per attack as efficient. Vs 4 HeavyBolter Devi, our a 5 Man MSU w/HvyBolter,Double Plas is just as efficient.

Our 6-4 10 Man Midfield, while are basically replaceable by Intercessors, are still efficient midfield and rhino mounted units. With having more non PW melee attacks vs Intercessors having better range. Intercessors in general will tend to have more wounds than our equivalent Crusader Squad however.

But why should someone play Black Templars?
1) Solid Auxilliary HQ (EC), for unlocking speciality detachment
2) Cheapest Moral Immunity (Cenos)
3) Best Tactical Equivalant in Game
4) Helm Let’s a Character buff easily off deep strike (you have to more then 9” away from enemy. Assuming your base has any length to it your going then closer than 9” to the buffer). And buffs the equivalent area of two characters.
5) A solid deny ability (sense normally it’s the like 60-40 casters favor)

The only meh ability’s that we have is our tactics and warlord trait. Our tactics are not the best thing ever. But they have grown on me. The amount of 5”-7” charges I have not failed thanks to this ability is astronomical. Our Warlord traits keeps our enemy locked in. And assuming good consolidation with our troops. The trait allows our warlord to make a follow up ‘Charge’ in the next turn.

Are we a competitive army? Not really no. Our best ‘ability’ is our Crusader Squad. Which with the existence of speciality detachments, is less important than it used to be. However your claim is that there is no reason play to Black Templars from a purely gameplay prospective, that is wrong.

Edited by Schlitzaf, 08 December 2017 - 09:24 PM.

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#65
varg_vikernes

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Primaris are the future of SM unfortunately.
I agree that we need some punch in CC without using Special Chars.

Quote guy.

 

But it's interesting to see that some new units of old marines  is still coming.  As the new character on Land speeder of the Dark angels  for example ! A lieutenant if i don't wrong.

 

 

EDIT :  yep! Talonmaster!


Edited by varg_vikernes, 08 December 2017 - 09:52 PM.


#66
DER PANZER

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I know only a thing: if i will play BT i'll use the most competitive list (bikers) or something for fun; and if i'll play a CAC army i'll use death company or WE.

#67
Marshal Arthur

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One thing we may want to add at the start of any request or petition are the areas we think GW got Templars right. This has a double effect where it encourages GW and keeps the tone positive while also clearly telling GW where we don’t want any changes. This way we sound like grateful fans who are only offering a few suggestions.

#68
arigatous

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"A member of a Crusader Squad with a power weapon can make 1 additional attack with it".

 

Now it just doesn't make sense to give a Power Weapon to an Initiate because one can make 2 attacks with a free chainsword instead on 1 attack with a costly power weapon.

 

But if we could get 5 power weapon attacks with this small rule (3 from Sword Brother, 2 from Initiate), that would immediately change everything IMO.


Edited by arigatous, 04 January 2018 - 07:03 PM.


#69
Schlitzaf

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The reason for PowSwords is that v MeQ is your Kill death goes from 0.22 > 0.285; spending 4 Points to increase your Kill rate by 33%. Its more notable that we have 3 PowWeapon attacks vs 2 PowWeapon. 3 > 2 > 1. Or 0.84 vs 2 > 1.32 > 0.66 > 0.55. It goes without saying it’s just a 33% increase. More or less but over long combats or multiple fights it shows. The additional 1 attack over the course of 4 instance of attacking kills an extra Marine. Than seems small at first but that is Two player turns.

No PowWeapon
22 > 14.66 > 7.33 > 2.44

PowWeapon
18 > 12 > 6 > 2
3 > 2 > 1 > 0.84

If the squads fight 4 times
9.66 no Weapon
11.36 Weapon

8 Points give you another 1.7 additional marines dead. Or 22ish Points. It’s a small difference certainly but it’s not an insignificant one. On the tabletop the functional difference will be winning Combat a half turn or so earlier. Having Marine Slap Fights actually end in our favor, and making us less reliant to fickle dice gods.

I still think be a good tactic that a Templar armed with a melee weapon of with AP -1 Or greater May attack 1 additional time with than Weapon in addition to their normal attacks. And for what it matters is something useful for successors choosing our tactics to represent them.
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#70
arigatous

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One initiate with power sword costs 17 points comparing to (13+11)/2=12 points for an average marine with CCW.

 

Which in turn means that 17 points spent on CCW BT will bring you 0.31 wounds vs T4 AS3+ while 17 points spent on power sword BT will bring 0.28 wounds.

 

So even vs MEQ power sword is worse than CCW pointwise. And vs GEQ 17 points CCW has 0.84 wounds compared to 0.44 with power sword.



#71
Schlitzaf

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We don’t need to kill GEQ Better, a Crusader Squad will just murder Gaurdsman anyways. The Power Swords simply let us win Melee Combat vs MEQ faster (not necessarily better). Personally it more as 34 points for 3 PowWeapon Attacks and 1 ChainSword Attack, 2 wounds (which is slightly less than stellar with closest equivalent being a Jetpack Vangaurd with Sword/Chain at 22 Points or Intercessor Sgt for 22 Points and no Chain). Essentially paying 12 Points for an extra wound or an attack melee attack.

It’s a small buff, and over the course of the game we on average earn 10 points back on our investment vs MEQ. (Anything T3, 5 > 3 > 2 > 1.32 if 5+ (1 if 4+ Or 0.7 if 3+) and T4, 5 > 3 > 1.5 > 5 vs Sv3+, 3 > 2 > 1 Or 1.32 > 0.84 or 1.1. The 8 points add when compared to 3+, add 0.1 damage per 2 Points spent if the target has 3+ or doubles damage if target has 4+ or lower.

So vs GEQ those 8 Points are effectively equivalent to getting another another Marine. Sense every 2 Bolter attacks equates to roughly to 0.22 damage vs Marines. Or the long and short of it

8 Points or Three Power Weapon Attacks in Crusader Squad is Equivalent to (for us) spending 12 Points. Per point they are less ‘efficient’ but once you compare them beyond raw efficiency and directly by damage they win out. That was poorly worded.
12 Points gives you more 0.25 Dead Marine
Spending the 8 Points for PowWeapons adds 0.33 Dead Marines vs just making 5 Bolter attacks. Effectively saving a net 4 Points
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#72
Jacques Corbin

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If any of you Crusaders truly want to effect policy change regarding the Black Templars and how GW handles them, then I suggest that you buy GW stock, because MONEY TALKS, not whiny, convoluted protest letters. If you do not believe me, then ask Acebaur, as he is a banker IRL. I love that guy, I met my bride to be because of travelling to meet him for that game. Never so happy to lose to a worthy opponent in all my life. He is so invited to the wedding!

Edited by Jacques Corbin, 09 January 2018 - 08:06 PM.


#73
Firepower

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If any of you Crusaders truly want to effect policy change regarding the Black Templars and how GW handles them, then I suggest that you buy GW stock, because MONEY TALKS, not whiny, convoluted protest letters.

 

There's no need to be insulting.  Anyway, yes, money is the key motivator.  The trouble there is that there isn't really a Templar 'range' to buy in bulk.  We have an upgrade sprue (and just about every Templar has several at least) and our Characters.  That's all.  The upgrade sprue can't even be used if you don't buy generic marines, and so generic marines remain the income source that grabs attention, rather than a niche faction of marines.

 

If you literally meant purchasing stock, then I can't see that comment as anything but outright dismissive.  There's no way you can be serious that Templar players buy enough GW stock to influence business decisions.

 

If a letter is polite and well thought out, it won't hurt anything (if not, it's more harmful than helpful).  That said, I haven't any confidence in them making a difference either, as money remains the key to it all.  But with our limiting factor above in mind, the most that could be done to draw attention to Templars as a popular faction is a wide presence in, say, tournaments.  Not a likely scenario, given our limitations compared to soup lists and/or Guilliman lists.  Templars simply aren't a tournie-level Chapter on their own, just as most of C:SM is mediocre in a truly competitive environment.

 

A large presence of Templar armies appearing in pics on social media, their website, what-have-you also couldn't hurt, but again, I wouldn't count on that influencing GW into paying us special regard.  


Edited by Firepower, 09 January 2018 - 10:07 PM.

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#74
Brother Adelard

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I find it surprising that everyone feels like we aren't treated in special regard by GW. We are. Just look at our record:

 

- We have three special characters. There are first founding Chapters with less or none. (Iron Hands)

- We are one of the only two second founding chapters to have special characters, chapter relics and Warlord traits. 

- We are the only second founding chapter with a unique chapter tactic and stratagem.

- We are the only second founding chapter with unique units (Both in the rules with Crusaders, and in the models as Sword Brethren are still sold.)

 

When you think about what we are in the grand scheme of things: an unorthodox second founding chapter, we are sitting massively pretty. Only us and the Fists have graced the covers of the Rule book itself and we were the 5th named chapter to have its own Codex! and I sit very smug when I see our fellow chapters' upgrade kits. Ours is far better value for money.

 

We are an integral part of 40k, one which is not going away any time soon. 

 

We only suffer on the table for one reason: We are an assault focussed army in a shooty dex, in a meta where MEQs are just not as tough as they should be. That problem is not confined to just our chapter. The answer is to rebalance that problem, not whine for special treatment and then pretend it isn't an issue for the rest of codex space marines.

 

I for one am pretty chuffed to be a Black Templar player, (and I haven't one a game in 8th yet.)  We are unique, well regarded and have a lot more cool toys than most of the first founding chapters. 

 

And we are not getting Librarians. If GW wanted to do that then 8th edition was THE perfect opportunity to do exactly that. Primaris Librarians joining the chapter would have been the only logical way to resurrect a Librarius. (Hell, they could have gone as far as to have them be former Templar Librarians frozen by Cawl back from the early days before they all died.) We can't start a Librarius from scratch, as who would train them? Some people are reading far too much into that box in the Codex where it says that we would embrace them if the Emperor decided to bless us with them. First, he hasn't made a lot of decisions in the last 10 thousand years sitting on the throne and second, I doubt if he did sit up and start giving orders then finding us a load of new filthy witches would be the first issue on his list. 


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#75
Schlitzaf

Schlitzaf

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I concur with Ade, I do think GW knows we exist and is listening. If they didn’t do you really think we wouldn’t have appeared in gathering storm?

Edited by Schlitzaf, 09 January 2018 - 11:22 PM.

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