Disappointed

[GreyCrow]

Come on, shooting twice with Stormbolters is absolutely awesome!

 

I mean we are talking 8 (!) shots per model. 80 Bolter Shots with a reroll To Hit wipes a Tactical Squad off the board.

And you are left with 10 Terminators on the table.

 

Slaanesh's combi Plasma stuff is often overkill and a significant points investment for a one trick pony.

[dtse]

Your aiming low tbh if all you are worried about is a tactical squad lol

[Saphrael]

I mean we are talking 8 (!) shots per model. 80 Bolter Shots with a reroll To Hit wipes a Tactical Squad off the board.

And you are left with 10 Terminators on the table.

To be precise it takes 68 storm bolter shots to remove a 10 man MEQ unit. But is spending ~400 points and 2 CP (likely ~33% of your total CP) really worth it to remove a ~130 point unit?

 

This stratagem would have seen use if it was 1CP, though that might be too cheap when you factor in heavy weapons. At 2 CP though it'll rarely get used. There are better ways to remove chaff than spending large portions of your CP pool.

[dtse]

Yea guys. In a 5-6 CP army using 2 to kill a tac marine squad. You lose. 40 cultists are going to make you cry when your terminators did turn 1. It’s just not good enough I’m afraid. Not with how the game is right now. My 10 man guard squad makes terminators cry. My taurox prime makes them cry. My 3 primaris psykers make them cry.

[Trunkello]

Yea guys. In a 5-6 CP army using 2 to kill a tac marine squad. You lose. 40 cultists are going to make you cry when your terminators did turn 1. It’s just not good enough I’m afraid. Not with how the game is right now. My 10 man guard squad makes terminators cry. My taurox prime makes them cry. My 3 primaris psykers make them cry.

What about The Eye of the Unseen relic? As a hardened tournament veteran such as yourself how do you see it? I mainly face deathguard so the first picture that comes into my mind is Mortarion chargin in second turn but here is this relic forcing him to attack last as my dw knights and ven dreds clubbing his face to the ground.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Trunkello

[Lord_Caerolion]

Its not the codex I hoped for, but I can work with it. It feels like GW is trying to force DA players to use RW, DW, and greenwing all together, rather than as individual armies. Don't really know if that was their intent, but it definitely feels like they want you to have a couple units of greenwing gunline, a Ravenwing biker/Black Knight unit, and a Deathwing teleport strike unit in an army.

 

Converting my 30k DA to 8th ed is now possible, as my Cataphracts can now be used, so that is nice.

 

That's... kinda the point of the different Wings though? They've always been meant to complement each other. The Battle Companies form the anvil, the Ravenwing hunt down the Fallen, encircle the foe, and call the Deathwing in to deliver the killing blow. That's how it's always worked in the fluff. 

[Berzul]

 

Its not the codex I hoped for, but I can work with it. It feels like GW is trying to force DA players to use RW, DW, and greenwing all together, rather than as individual armies. Don't really know if that was their intent, but it definitely feels like they want you to have a couple units of greenwing gunline, a Ravenwing biker/Black Knight unit, and a Deathwing teleport strike unit in an army.

 

Converting my 30k DA to 8th ed is now possible, as my Cataphracts can now be used, so that is nice.

 

That's... kinda the point of the different Wings though? They've always been meant to complement each other. The Battle Companies form the anvil, the Ravenwing hunt down the Fallen, encircle the foe, and call the Deathwing in to deliver the killing blow. That's how it's always worked in the fluff. 

 

 

This is hard to put on a list, though

[Lord_Caerolion]

Yep, and from what I've seen they've gotten rid of some of the synergy between DW and RW, which is a shame. Would have been nice to see some sort of Teleport Homer strategem, along the lines of Deathwing being able to deepstrike within 9", so long as it's close by a RW unit.

[Loar]

What about The Eye of the Unseen relic? As a hardened tournament veteran such as yourself how do you see it? I mainly face deathguard so the first picture that comes into my mind is Mortarion chargin in second turn but here is this relic forcing him to attack last as my dw knights and ven dreds clubbing his face to the ground.

 

 

It sounds good on paper but its really easy to avoid in practice.  It's on a character in a 3 inch bubble, not the Deathwing knights in your example.  So all it takes is being conscious with your charge so you aren't within 3 inches when you finish, its the same as avoiding heroic intervention as normal which is the same range.  In Morty in this example its even easier as he has fly so doesn't have to worry about moving around other models. 

 

This doesn't mean it's not good, I can see some uses when used more offensively than defensively.  It's just not a super great relic like you're thinking against any half-way decent player, if it was a 6 inch bubble, or applied the aura to friendlies within 3 as well...then we're talkin.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Loar

[Stoic Raptor]

40 cultists are going to make you cry when your terminators did turn 1. It’s just not good enough I’m afraid. Not with how the game is right now. My 10 man guard squad makes terminators cry. 

 

    

 

Nah, they're crying because of your loaded dice.  Because if your 10 Guardsmen are a threat to an equal number of Terminators, you're either cheating, blessed with extraordinary luck, or playing an utter imbecile.

 

What's your secret? 

[RayJ]

If you haven't seen Tabletop Tactics' video where they use the new codex in a RW army, it's at least worth checking out. They use the Eye of the Unseen on a Ravenwing Champion, and his job is to hunt characters in general. I don't think this is supposed to be a defensive tool at all. It is specifically to get those hits on your opponent's otherwise deadly melee beatsticks and kill them before they can do anything.

 

I think we can do a little better than the RW champ (IC on a bike sounds awesome for this).

[dtse]

40 lasguns do work on terminators. Trust. This is the edition of weight of fire. Any 50 point model dying to a lasgun will make anyone cry. But it happens when you shoot that many shots.

 

Lawrence’s list unfortunately is too elite to really succeed in the current competitive meta, especially with three flyers leaving very few models to grab objectives. And keep in mind he was playing necrons. Possibly one of the worst factions right now

 

I can see deathwing doing ok but again. Elite army. Black knight spam might catch some off guard but again, elite army. Making your apothecary your warlord and giving him grenade launcher to snipe characters might be fun but that isn’t gonna win you games.

 

Putting some plasma cannons together as we speak...

[Trunkello]

 

It sounds good on paper but its really easy to avoid in practice. It's on a character in a 3 inch bubble, not the Deathwing knights in your example. So all it takes is being conscious with your charge so you aren't within 3 inches when you finish, its the same as avoiding heroic intervention as normal which is the same range. In Morty in this example its even easier as he has fly so doesn't have to worry about moving around other models.

 

This doesn't mean it's not good, I can see some uses when used more offensively than defensively. It's just not a super great relic like you're thinking against any half-way decent player, if it was a 6 inch bubble, or applied the aura to friendlies within 3 as well...then we're talkin.

Thanks for your answer. You are right i should not think about these rules so defensively. Waiting for thoose charges and things to step into a trap sounds really risky and stupid now as i think about it. At least it can prevent some cc locked units to cut our recently charged in units into pieces next turn.

[march10k]

I'm thinking that their intent is to induce us to play Unforgiven Soup, the DA answer to Imperial soup.  A darkshroud shadowing two crusaderloads of melee terminators under the covering fire of 3 damage plasma vets?  Or maybe plasma devs?  I'll have to see which one makes more sense.

 

 

Aren't Dark Angels better just by virtue of getting sruff like the Storm Raven?.

 

Storm Raven?  How is that a bonus when I already have a Storm Eagle?

[G8Keeper]

 

 

Storm Raven?  How is that a bonus when I already have a Storm Eagle?

 

Maybe not better for your army in isolation but for the vast majority of us who don't have a Storm Eagle we just got a huge boost in the form of an aerial transport.

[march10k]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound condescending. Mine's FW, but three guys in my shop have conversions, and one of them builds them on commission. 

[depthcharge12]

40 lasguns do work on terminators. Trust. This is the edition of weight of fire. Any 50 point model dying to a lasgun will make anyone cry. But it happens when you shoot that many shots.

 

Lawrence’s list unfortunately is too elite to really succeed in the current competitive meta, especially with three flyers leaving very few models to grab objectives. And keep in mind he was playing necrons. Possibly one of the worst factions right now

 

I can see deathwing doing ok but again. Elite army. Black knight spam might catch some off guard but again, elite army. Making your apothecary your warlord and giving him grenade launcher to snipe characters might be fun but that isn’t gonna win you games.

 

Putting some plasma cannons together as we speak...

I watched the MWG batrep against Alaitoc - which should benchmark the other end of the spectrum. Necrons being the weakest, and Alaitoc warlock coven being amongst the strongest (-1 to hit, -1 for strategems/warlord, 3++, 5+++ with a Unit that can throw a ton of spears and put out a metric ton of shuriken).

 

Honestly, I think any DA army should start thinking about mortal wounds support when faced with redunkulous combinations that you see at the higher tiers. I like Ravenwing but I hate to see everyone exclusively focus on it and not trying to find synergy or try out some greenwing or Deathwing parts. Plasma bikes are good, but a heavy points sink that seems to melt too fast.

 

Perhaps start switching to plasma incinerators or plasma devs babysat by Azrael or a darkshroud.

 

I never see the avenger cannon variant do much in lists, but the rift cannon/stasis bomb always does. Perhaps try for two dark talons in a list. Their ability to clear out chaff (hurribolters) and problematic units (bomb plus rift cannon) goes without saying.

[Ishagu]

40 Las guns in rapid fire range is one dead terminator on average lol

 

Why are people worried?

[Helycon]

I'm thinking that their intent is to induce us to play Unforgiven Soup, the DA answer to Imperial soup. A darkshroud shadowing two crusaderloads of melee terminators under the covering fire of 3 damage plasma vets? Or maybe plasma devs? I'll have to see which one makes more sense.

 

 

 

Aren't Dark Angels better just by virtue of getting sruff like the Storm Raven?.

Storm Raven? How is that a bonus when I already have a Storm Eagle?

Yeah, you're right. Dropping a dreadnought with a platform that has massive firepower isn't useful. ;)

[Charlo]

DW TDA sound like the ultimate chaff-clearers which is very meta relevent this edition.

 

RW can then scoop into the hole and get some nasty charges off (while firing too).

 

Greenwing Cap objectives and provide solid, accurate fire support.

[Helycon]

The problem is, there are a lot of things to do chaff clearing better for cheaper. It's the entire reason Razorback got more expensive, as did assault cannons. Still, they outperform terminators due to the fact they have more and tougher wound, are more mobile, have higher strengt, can transport stuff. And yes, I realise they generally hit on 4's. If you want a good dakka platform, I'd go Talonmaster.

 

A Stormraven also excels at it, since it can be equipped with two hurricane bolters, an assault cannon and heavy bolters. You can then drop your heavy beatstick units in their lines and watch those do work. It's more expensive, but more survivable too. I've ordered two of them because yay, Stormravens!

Edited December 11, 2017 by Helycon

[march10k]

 

I'm thinking that their intent is to induce us to play Unforgiven Soup, the DA answer to Imperial soup. A darkshroud shadowing two crusaderloads of melee terminators under the covering fire of 3 damage plasma vets? Or maybe plasma devs? I'll have to see which one makes more sense.

 

Aren't Dark Angels better just by virtue of getting sruff like the Storm Raven?.

Storm Raven? How is that a bonus when I already have a Storm Eagle?

Yeah, you're right. Dropping a dreadnought with a platform that has massive firepower isn't useful.

 

If and only if you were planning on deepstriking dreads and are still mourning the loss of derp pods, then yeah.  But if you want a flying assault ramp for terminators and maybe a nice bit of lascannon action on top?  Steagle all the way.

[Berzul]

The problem is, there are a lot of things to do chaff clearing better for cheaper. It's the entire reason Razorback got more expensive, as did assault cannons. Still, they outperform terminators due to the fact they have more and tougher wound, are more mobile, have higher strengt, can transport stuff. And yes, I realise they generally hit on 4's. If you want a good dakka platform, I'd go Talonmaster.

 

A Stormraven also excels at it, since it can be equipped with two hurricane bolters, an assault cannon and heavy bolters. You can then drop your heavy beatstick units in their lines and watch those do work. It's more expensive, but more survivable too. I've ordered two of them because yay, Stormravens!

 

Ok, I usually use a combination of Bikers and Dark Talons to this same thing. If I can concentrate all that effort in a single vehicle, I gotta say, that sounds quite tempting... but, at the same time, this means you are putting all of your eggs in one basket, so to speak.

[Helycon]

 

 

 

I'm thinking that their intent is to induce us to play Unforgiven Soup, the DA answer to Imperial soup. A darkshroud shadowing two crusaderloads of melee terminators under the covering fire of 3 damage plasma vets? Or maybe plasma devs? I'll have to see which one makes more sense.

 

Aren't Dark Angels better just by virtue of getting sruff like the Storm Raven?.

Storm Raven? How is that a bonus when I already have a Storm Eagle?

Yeah, you're right. Dropping a dreadnought with a platform that has massive firepower isn't useful.

If and only if you were planning on deepstriking dreads and are still mourning the loss of derp pods, then yeah. But if you want a flying assault ramp for terminators and maybe a nice bit of lascannon action on top? Steagle all the way.

How about you can do the exact same with a Raven? It has the same amount of dakka if not more, slightly less room for transportation of infantry ('only' 7 terminators) and can carry ANY dread, including a Leviathan.

 

And yes, it will be a fire magnet, which is why it works well with a Darkshroud for us, since it makes most people hit it on 6's For more fun, you can even use a Deredeo Dread with Automantic Pavise, but that's adding up quick. With just the Darkshroud though, it'll be tough as nails to kill and deliver goods at a rapid pace.

[dtse]

so just wrote a list, its very rough:

 

Guard brigade (mostly for CP, screens and deep strike denial)

company commander x3

3 acolytes

6 infantry squads

3 scout sentinels

3 mortar teams

 

Azrael plasma line:

azrael

lieutenant

shroud

banner

hellblasters++ (thinking probably 2 squads of 10)

 

Flyer wing

3 dark talons (why not, only 140 points now, 420 for 3 flyers like that is pretty sweet)