Assault Terminators Math

[Father Mapple]

Help me out Frater.... I'm good enough at math to make sure my customers in real life get invoices, but the first fight phase due to the Red Thirst is complicating numbers for me. Did I do it right?

5 Assault Terminators have, in the first round of combat with Marines:

Hammer and Shields: (10 Attacks hitting on 4s), (wounding on 2s), (saves on 6+), meaning 3.4 unsaved wounds, or 9-12 damage. 3 Tactical/Intercessors dead, 1 character.

Lightning Claws: (15 attacks hitting on 3s) (wounding on a 4, reroll below that, then keep 3s and above, or 83.5%?) (saves on 5+), meaning  5.6 unsaved wounds, or 5-6 damage. 5-6 dead tacticals, 2-3 dead Intercessors. For 6 Terminators, it's 6.72 unsaved wounds.

 

5 Assault Terminators have, in the first round of combat with Marine Terminators:

Hammer and Shields: (10 Attacks hitting on 4s), (wounding on 2s), (saves on 5+), meaning 2.7 unsaved wounds, or 6-9 damage. 2-3 Terminators dead, 1 character.

Lightning Claws: (15 attacks hitting on 3s) (wounding on a 4, reroll below that, then keep 3s and above, or 83.5%?) (saves on 4+), meaning  4.2 unsaved wounds, or 4 damage. 2 dead terminators and most characters still alive. For 6 Terminators, it's 5.04 unsaved wounds.

 

5 Assault Terminators have, in the first round of combat with most T7 Vehicles/MC with 3+ save:

Hammer and Shields: (10 Attacks hitting on 4s), (wounding on 2s), (saves on 6+), meaning 3.4 unsaved wounds, or 9-12 damage. 

Lightning Claws: (15 attacks hitting on 3s) (wounding on a 5, reroll below that, then keep 4s and above, or 74.7%?) (saves on 5+), meaning  2.48 unsaved wounds, or 2-3 damage. For 6 Terminators it's 2.98 unsaved wounds.

 

The Lightning Claws drop off after the first round of combat more dramatically than Thunder Hammers do, but is anyone expecting people to stick in combat and not withdraw?

This is all for a difference of 45 points between 5 marine terminator squads, meaning you could get the 6 lightning claw terminators for the price of 5 hammer terminators, which is why I added a terminator at the end of the Lightning Claw math.

Is it worth it? 

Don't forget, you could do the math with Cataphractii and Tartaros options as well. With the increased survivability of Cataphractii, Lightning Claws should be pretty persuasive.

EDIT: Updated for correction down below on hammer damage.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Father Mapple

[Indefragable]

I will leave the math part to people who can count all 11 of their toes, but my shorthand is that Cataphractii are the premier anti-MEQ/GEQ unitnin out book. Crazy AP-2 D:1 output and T4 2W 2+/4++ is a nightmare to chew through in any reasonable amount of time/effort. Add in Red Thirst...and Corbulo...

[Father Mapple]

I didn't factor in a Sanguinary Priest, much more Corbulo, as the Thunder Hammers see a smaller impact from it unless it's T8+, but they're still beating Lightning Claws at that level.

But the thunder hammers see a much bigger impact from reroll 1s to hit or rerolling all hits than the Lightning Claws.

[brother_b]

I will leave the math part to people who can count all 11 of their toes, but my shorthand is that Cataphractii are the premier anti-MEQ/GEQ unitnin out book. Crazy AP-2 D:1 output and T4 2W 2+/4++ is a nightmare to chew through in any reasonable amount of time/effort. Add in Red Thirst...and Corbulo...

Why do we even have normal terminators, then? If cataphractii is so much better? This is actually a game and fluff question. Isn't that armor supposed to be old, from 30K? Why is it so much better?

 

If we had those things all along why even make new terminator armor?

 

On a side note, cataphractii and the other armor is brand new to me.

[Panzer]

It depends what you use them for. Cataphractii are awesome to chew through infantry due the lightning claws plus 4++. Indomitus (normal ones) are awesome to bash big stuff with their hammers plus 3++. That much for the crunch. For the fluff...every Terminator armor is an extremely valuable relic and there are simply more Indomitus than Cataphractii available.

[Xenith]

The old stuff is better. They have to make new stuff because they lost the knowledge of how to build the old stuff - welcome to 40k!

[Panzer]

Old doesn't mean worse in 40k. Often it even means better actually. But generally it just means more rare.

 

EDIT: dangit, ninja'd when I wanted to add something to my post lol

Edited December 12, 2017 by sfPanzer

[swordofmandulis]

I haven't re done all the maths, but with flat 3 damage 3 unsaved wounds from a hammer would be 9 damage and 4 would be 12.

[The Unseen]

Your math looks good, the whole re-roll before modifiers is a pain both in theory and in practice. 1 thing I did notice however, is that you didn't count the sergeants extra attack (Terminator Sergeants have 3 attacks base) It won't change you math much, but will swing it a little bit more towards the hammers.

 

I'll answer your question with another question. What do you want them to do? If you want them solely to kill MEQ, or similar, then the lightning claws are performing very similarly if not better than the hammers offensively, but they lose survivability by dropping their SS. Tartaros are also good here, they can take dual claws, and get an extra 1" of movement, but can't mix stormshields in. If you want a unit that can kill anything except chaff infantry well, and survive almost anything, you want TH/SS terminators. If you want a still tough as nails unit (though not quite as tough as TH/SS Termies) that retains their chaff clearing potential with stormbolters, but can still kill almost anything, I recommend Cataphracti Terminators with SB/PF, but they are even slower than regular terminators, and need transport.

 

So it all kinda depends on what you need them to do, cataphracti or TH/SS for an anvil, lightning claws for more specialized anti-infantry killing for cheaper.

 

And Brother_b, Cataphracti plate is the oldest mark of terminator armor, and while it is more protective than anything less than a SS equipped Indomitus wearer, it is much slower. In game, they have a 4" move rather than a 5", and they halve their advance rolls. Tartaros is another older mark, in-universe its slightly less protective, but retains more mobility for the marine wearing it. In game, it gets slightly different weapon options, and a 6" base move.

Edited December 12, 2017 by The Unseen

[Arkhanist]

Covering purely fluff reasons: Cataphractii TDA was expensive to make and very complex to maintain, partly due to the many small overlapping plates. Scale that up to the requirements for equipping and supporting the vast legions in 30k, and the logistics were too much. Its slow speed and lack of agility also caused issues strategically (can't run as fast as power armour, can't just climb aboard a rhino to redeploy) so like all terminator plate, it was mainly used for shock assaults and boarding actions where its sheer survivability was key.

 

As with MK IV, tartaros plate took advantage of the re-discovery of STC designs and materials during the Crusade, and possibly xenos tech, to design armour that was lighter, more mobile, quicker to make and much simpler to maintain as long as you had spare parts. Still damn costly compared to power armour though. The downside were the requirements for a high tech and knowledge base, as well as a supply chain with access to complex materials. The collapse of that, along with the logistics issues during the Heresy led to massive supply problems (e.g. see mk V for scrabbled-together roughly repaired suits), and directly to the redesigned dual-tech mk VI and VII power armour that could be supported with shorter supply chains and repaired with more basic parts if that was all that was available.

 

The timeline for the creation of Indomitus is not entirely clear; older fluff was that the MK VII helmet was inspired by it and it did exist during the heresy; the IF used it I believe, and chaos terminators have it. In 40k Indomitus is the most common pattern as Mars can still make it, in small quantities.

 

Even the knowledge about Indomitus is rare in 40k though - 10k years, a religious fundamentalist approach to science and technology and losses in constant war have led to all terminator suits being near irreplaceable relics. No remaining forgeworlds in imperial control retain the knowledge to make new cataphractii or tartaros complete suits AFAIK, though it's rumoured some Hell-forges do.

 

Presumably Cawl's new MK X variants, including gravis, are intended to replace terminator armour eventually. 

[Brother Crimson]

If you need numbers to help you (assuming 3+ save)

5 th/ss is 3.8 unsaved versus t4/t7, 3.1 vs t8

5 lc is 6.3 unsaved vs t4, 5.3 vs t5/7, 4 vs t8

 

But in the end it really depends if you are charging multiwound or 1hp unit. TH terminator can open up a predator but those 3D attacks are wasted against single wound targets.

 

Also consider the sanguinary guard. They are cheaper, cooler and have very good damage output.

[Father Mapple]

It looks like with the addition of the Damage statistic to the weapon profiles that it discourages mixing of thunder hammers and lightning claws in the unit of terminators, as then they are not good enough against either type of unit.

​Guess this means I need to paint 2/3 of each type to bring me up to 1x squad of each weapon load out totally.

[Aothaine]

It looks like with the addition of the Damage statistic to the weapon profiles that it discourages mixing of thunder hammers and lightning claws in the unit of terminators, as then they are not good enough against either type of unit.

 

​Guess this means I need to paint 2/3 of each type to bring me up to 1x squad of each weapon load out totally.

 

That is another very interesting question though. Is mixing the units a bad idea? Is only having 5 man units better than 10? What about 6-9? 

 

Is it better to have a huge anvil that takes up a lot of board space or better to have multiple units? 

 

I lean toward MSU here but I'm not entirely positive if that is the best approach for an Anvil unit.

 

Would a 10-man unit of TH/SS be better than two 5-man units? 

 

Some points come to mind. What are you filling the rest of your elite slots with? Terminator Ancient with the BoS might be one. You might want some Dreadnoughts as well. But most people run 2-3 detachments. So you should have extra elite slots available.

 

Splitting the unit gives you another model with +1 ld and +1 attack. Allows for more deployment options but increases your drop count. Also, lets say you multi-charge with a 10-man and they wipe out the first unit.. they can then consolidate into the second unit possibly keeping them safe, though unlikely unless you have another unit on the other side assaulting them as well

[brother_b]

The old stuff is better. They have to make new stuff because they lost the knowledge of how to build the old stuff - welcome to 40k!

In my defense, those sets didn't exist when I played.

 

Your explanation, however, is so 40K, and instantly understood. Thanks for the answers.

[Father Mapple]

 

That is another very interesting question though. Is mixing the units a bad idea? Is only having 5 man units better than 10? What about 6-9? 

 

Is it better to have a huge anvil that takes up a lot of board space or better to have multiple units? 

 

I lean toward MSU here but I'm not entirely positive if that is the best approach for an Anvil unit.

 

Would a 10-man unit of TH/SS be better than two 5-man units? 

 

Some points come to mind. What are you filling the rest of your elite slots with? Terminator Ancient with the BoS might be one. You might want some Dreadnoughts as well. But most people run 2-3 detachments. So you should have extra elite slots available.

 

Splitting the unit gives you another model with +1 ld and +1 attack. Allows for more deployment options but increases your drop count. Also, lets say you multi-charge with a 10-man and they wipe out the first unit.. they can then consolidate into the second unit possibly keeping them safe, though unlikely unless you have another unit on the other side assaulting them as well

 

 

I can't see a good reason to mix the units besides truly not knowing what is coming or not having enough to be painted. They're good against such different targets, you'd have to know the opponents list was not tailored at all. 

 

I think multiple units makes shooting a harder priority decision for your opponent and lets you get more creative with deployment and charging tactics, soaking overwatch, filling out detatchments, etc..

 

I do think, for the points, having a 6 man lightning claw terminator would offset the amount of damage getting through and keeps the point for matched play prices closes to parity, but it messes up power points.

[Are Verlo]

I want to add an extra dimension/variable. wounds inflicted/cost. LC termies cost less than TH/SS termies. Based on memory (have to codex back home) an assault terminator has a cost of 26 + gear. So a TH/SS terminator would be 47 points  and a LC terminator would be 38. A 5 man squad of TH/SS cost costs a little more than a 6 man squad of LC termies.

[Withershadow]

You're late to the party with that, he already factored that in by adding the damage output of 6-man lightning claw squads.

 

It is a shame that Indomitus basically sucks except for thunder hammers, as it means yet another edition of my Space Hulk Blood Angel terminators sitting in their box.  I guess Tartaros are not much better despite the extra movement point?