Malcador: First Lord of the Imperium.

[mc warhammer]

sure.

 

but i'm not even talking about questionable behaviour that can be understood within a cultural context

 

i'm talking about the power of dumb. dumb choices. made by otherwise competent characters (different to "dumb" characters being dumb)

 

i like a bit of competence porn in my sherlocks and dr whos and takens as much as the next punter, but i find characters displaying moments of pure self sabotaging stupidity fascinating.

 

more orpheus turning around than achilles and agamemnon having a tiff.

 

or smoking. smoking ain’t “smart”

 

or david avocado wolfe. if someone can explain why people follow him, you get my first born. not even a joke.

 

smart people can tend towards dumb decisions and conclusions. dan kahan's (yale) research has clarified why; there can be a tendency for smarter people to reject evidence contrary to their established bias. part of the answer to that is that choices aren't made in an intellectual vacuum, there's all the human muckety muck that accompanies them. that would go for primarchs too. they aren't immune to cognitive bias.

 

i'd even argue that primarchs are walking examples of cognitive bias

 

all that though relies on the stupidity of the choice being written believably for character reasons, not simply to propel the plot (ie most bad horror movies). and here's where i think context does apply; but its a character based one. one way to look at it might be that magnus' choices and actions aren't just "smart" or "stupid", they're mixed up in so many levels of self sabotaging, self loathing, utterly desperate compulsion that they can't be extracted and evaluated on their own merit. he's a mess... who also happened to be a genius.

 

then if you want, add in the cultural context: insane pressured competitive environment of the primarch fraternity, 2 failed brothers and humanity's future on the line...and maybe, maybe we have reasons.

 

maybe?

[Phoebus]

I mean, it depends on the character and their context. For instance, I don't think Orpheus was dumb; he was in love enough to go to the underworld and fetch his wife from the god of death. Even if early poetry wasn't able to capture it, it's understood that there's a tremendous amount of turmoil and fear at play as Orpheus is approaching the mortal realm. Is Hades duping him? Is Eurydice still behind him? Even Odysseus's seemingly suicidal boasting against unseen gods has to be seen within the lens of him knowing that, for ten years, the Olympians were toying with the Achaeans and the Trojans: offering up their support or withdrawing it as was their whim. He’s essentially screaming, “I did this, I managed to do this, despite everything you threw at us!”

 

On the other hand, I'm sure there are instances where a character can just be wrong - whether due to arrogance, ignorance, or whatever. What I against is the concept of "on steroids." Frankly, I hate that.

 

Angron doesn't even into my equations, incidentally; he's been cybernatically butchered. Nor do I worry much about Fulgrim (possessed, corrupted), Perturabo (probably a psychopath), the Night Haunter (insane, definitely a psychopath), or Lorgar (religious fanatic). It's when we get to the Lion or Horus that I get annoyed, whose lack of judgment is childish at times. Mortarion has gotten so little spotlight that the reversals in his character are just jarring, and Magnus... well, we've covered him.

 

So no, to bring this back to the topic at hand, I don't have much confidence in the concept "Malcador" alludes to being pulled off convincingly. Opinions will obviously differ, and I feel stunningly arrogant typing this, but I nonetheless can't help but feel that many fans of the series often nod their heads and say something makes sense because that's what the author says in the book.

[mc warhammer]

sorry, i edited out some poor sentences in my post while you were composing your reply...so there’s a bit of disconnect between them.

 

personally i extend the same understanding towards magnus’ depiction that i do orpheus. though little about the fulgrim depictions i’ve read so far makes much sense to me.

 

topic at hand? i’m open to it. just waiting to see if it lives up to its promise

[bluntblade]

Phoebus, your thoughts rather echo my reservations about this.

[Ascanius]

Laurie mentioned on Twitter that things kicked off earlier than planned, and that Chaos wasn't supposed to be part of it - i.e., the original plan was for Horus (or whomever) to rebel purely because of the jealousy/abandonment/ambition issues, but then Chaos pulled a Joker and "took your little plan and turned it on itself."

[mc warhammer]

just a reminder, that despite tweets (death of the author etc etc etc) that this story is still written in such a way that the concept can be dismissed by the audience if they want to

 

until further elaboration in the lore, it’s take it or leave it

[Scribe]

Laurie mentioned on Twitter that things kicked off earlier than planned, and that Chaos wasn't supposed to be part of it - i.e., the original plan was for Horus (or whomever) to rebel purely because of the jealousy/abandonment/ambition issues, but then Chaos pulled a Joker and "took your little plan and turned it on itself."

 

I think this should be discussed more. I dont find the idea as terrible as others, because...I mean look at some of the Primarchs. They never had a place in an Imperium at peace.

[Jareddm]

I feel back when The First Heretic was being released, the idea that the Heresy was planned by the Emperor wasn't just a popular theory, it was literally the only explanation that many people were willing to accept for why the Emperor had acted the way he did.

[Ascanius]

It's not a surprising development, if true.

 

My only reservation with it would be the same old question - did the Emperor not consider the possibility that Chaos would interfere?

 

Sometimes I think the notion that the Emperor is some kind of artificial psychic weapon from the Dark Age of Technology, out of its box and pursuing its goals without any oversight, is the only theory that accounts for everything; how else to explain why he overlooked so many pitfalls in his plans? No wonder Alan Bligh was fond of it. 

 

There is something interesting about the notion that the "wartime" or "necessary evil" Primarchs, those who would fit in poorly with an Imperium at peace, were the most likely to rebel. It's not just the damaged ones like Angron, Curze, or Mortarion - it's also the ones whose virtues only shone in war, and would forever be diminished with no battles to fight, like Horus.

 

If the Emperor intended for those four to spark the rebellion, maybe with Perturabo included given the fact that his treatment must have been deliberate in this theory (and a real shame, given what he was capable of off the battlefield), you can see how it would have accomplished the goals of eliminating the Primarchs and Legions that wouldn't have fit in and those that might have fit in, but less well - Ferrus, Sanguinius, the Lion, maybe Corax and Alpharius.

 

In this theory, it's not an accident that Ferrus was inclined to charge ahead too quickly at Isstvan V, both in terms of arriving without most of his fleet and pushing too far beyond the ability of the Salamanders and Raven Guard to support. It's not an accident that Sanguinius experiences visions of his self-sacrifice but doesn't shy from this destiny. Maybe it's not even an accident that Corax falls into melancholy and takes off when the war is over, or Alpharius seemingly sacrifices himself to prove a point. Also easily to believe that Lion "loyalty is its own reward" El-Johnson would end up going to his death in the fires of war - or that if he proved intractable, the established rivalry between Russ and the Lion would mean the VI Legion wouldn't balk at eliminating the I Legion . . . or they'd eliminate each other.

 

The Khan is a bit of a wild card, but you could easily imagine he and his Legion being more or less satisfied to roam the Imperium and put down any rebellions or xenos resurgences without interacting with the rest of the populace much at all - if they survived the war.

That would leave you with guys like Dorn, Guilliman, Fulgrim, Lorgar, Magnus, Vulkan, and Russ, all of whom in a mythical Chaos-free post-Horus future would be content to settle down with their Legions into a new duty and not strain at the leash to go to war. Dorn guarding and policing, Guilliman administrating, Fulgrim pursuing artistic achievement, Lorgar guiding Imperial thought, Magnus on the Throne exploring the galaxy with his mind, Vulkan crafting great works, and Russ lurking in his kennel on Fenris to be loosed when necessary.

 

Lorgar may seem questionable since he was so disobedient to the Emperor's wishes during the Great Crusade, but on The First Expedition forum Laurie once mentioned the possibility that the Emperor's plan always culminated with his dying gloriously in the rebellion to save humanity and leave them to govern themselves in the Emperor's planned future - and I could well imagine that being a transformative moment for Lorgar.

 

If the Emperor had actually died, then that proves he's not a god (leaving historical religions with dying god figures aside, Lorgar's faith rested largely on the whole "this god is real and here in the universe with us" idea), so Lorgar might have flipped back around to promoting the Imperial Truth, with added inspirational "the Emperor died for us" veneration-without-religion seasoning. Think George Washington or, less flatteringly, Kim Il-sung.

[Marshal Rohr]

Regardless of what Laurie says, engineering a rebellion is ridiculous because its so uncontrollable. The first issue is, the Emperor, as powerful as he is, isn't capable of engineering a galaxy wide rebellion if he wasn't capable of engineering a galaxy wide conquest without the Primarchs. It doesn't hold up to basic, simple scrutiny. The second issue is that the Legions don't need some big reason to go away, and this was a big issue with the way Black Library handled the Thunder Warriors. Its people with zero experience in the military or politics coming up with mustache twirling plots because they don't actually know the real way things happen is incredibly simple. The Thunder Warriors didn't need to be wiped out, that is as :cuss stupid as saying all the cavalrymen in western militaries had to be executed because horses were a liability with machine guns on the battlefield. The Thunder Warriors wouldve been integrated into the Legions and then died naturally. It's so obvious I guess it eludes them. As soon as the Great Crusade is over, you can demilitarize and send the legions to the frontier like literally every civilization ever. America didn't execute every single soldier coming home from Europe. It's just... stupid, sadly. Complexity for the sake of complexity without adding anything valuable at all. 

[Scribe]

With respect, I think there is difference between humans coming home from war, and integrating with humans, and various levels of Transhuman, who we know (Outcast Dead) require upkeep to remain alive, or will live forever* (not really) in the case of Astartes.

 

When you are a person, you can reintegrate. When you had no reason to exist other than to kill, thats a bit harder.

[mc warhammer]

Regardless of what Laurie says, engineering a rebellion is ridiculous because its so uncontrollable. The first issue is, the Emperor, as powerful as he is, isn't capable of engineering a galaxy wide rebellion if he wasn't capable of engineering a galaxy wide conquest without the Primarchs. It doesn't hold up to basic, simple scrutiny. The second issue is that the Legions don't need some big reason to go away, and this was a big issue with the way Black Library handled the Thunder Warriors. Its people with zero experience in the military or politics coming up with mustache twirling plots because they don't actually know the real way things happen is incredibly simple. The Thunder Warriors didn't need to be wiped out, that is as :cuss stupid as saying all the cavalrymen in western militaries had to be executed because horses were a liability with machine guns on the battlefield. The Thunder Warriors wouldve been integrated into the Legions and then died naturally. It's so obvious I guess it eludes them. As soon as the Great Crusade is over, you can demilitarize and send the legions to the frontier like literally every civilization ever. America didn't execute every single soldier coming home from Europe. It's just... stupid, sadly. Complexity for the sake of complexity without adding anything valuable at all.

on this point, i was wondering if there were any irl examples or people in power manufacturing internal

strife or civil unrest/war? apart from false flag conspiracy nut theories

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Regardless of what Laurie says, engineering a rebellion is ridiculous because its so uncontrollable. The first issue is, the Emperor, as powerful as he is, isn't capable of engineering a galaxy wide rebellion if he wasn't capable of engineering a galaxy wide conquest without the Primarchs. It doesn't hold up to basic, simple scrutiny. The second issue is that the Legions don't need some big reason to go away, and this was a big issue with the way Black Library handled the Thunder Warriors. Its people with zero experience in the military or politics coming up with mustache twirling plots because they don't actually know the real way things happen is incredibly simple. The Thunder Warriors didn't need to be wiped out, that is as :cuss stupid as saying all the cavalrymen in western militaries had to be executed because horses were a liability with machine guns on the battlefield. The Thunder Warriors wouldve been integrated into the Legions and then died naturally. It's so obvious I guess it eludes them. As soon as the Great Crusade is over, you can demilitarize and send the legions to the frontier like literally every civilization ever. America didn't execute every single soldier coming home from Europe. It's just... stupid, sadly. Complexity for the sake of complexity without adding anything valuable at all.

on this point, i was wondering if there were any irl examples or people in power manufacturing internal

strife or civil unrest/war? apart from false flag conspiracy nut theories

There are none, because it’s either a revolution that catches its orchestrators up in the violence or one side wins and rewrites the rules. There’s never been a civil war where the winning side was executed for being too dangerous.

 

Which is also a massive problem with the way the authors are portraying the way people treat the loyalist legions. Imagine if allies liberated the concentration camps and the prisoners gave them :cuss. It’s mind boggling in its logic. People simply don’t work that way. Maybe in 40k where no one has ever seen a space marine but not in 30k where they are a staple of imperial culture.

[Marshal Rohr]

With respect, I think there is difference between humans coming home from war, and integrating with humans, and various levels of Transhuman, who we know (Outcast Dead) require upkeep to remain alive, or will live forever* (not really) in the case of Astartes.

 

When you are a person, you can reintegrate. When you had no reason to exist other than to kill, thats a bit harder.

. On the surface that would make sense, if Imperial society wasn’t flooded with trans humans and sub humans at every level, Class, and station. Mechanicum adepts are transhuman, genebred laborers, servitors, and so on. Marines what? Live a long time and hot stuff good, so do half the genetically engineered mechanicum soldiers and aristocratic household troops. Wear power armor? Take it away. They are soldiers. They’ll follow orders. I’m speaking generally of course. Not busting your balls in particular.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

Regardless of what Laurie says, engineering a rebellion is ridiculous because its so uncontrollable. The first issue is, the Emperor, as powerful as he is, isn't capable of engineering a galaxy wide rebellion if he wasn't capable of engineering a galaxy wide conquest without the Primarchs. It doesn't hold up to basic, simple scrutiny. The second issue is that the Legions don't need some big reason to go away, and this was a big issue with the way Black Library handled the Thunder Warriors. Its people with zero experience in the military or politics coming up with mustache twirling plots because they don't actually know the real way things happen is incredibly simple. The Thunder Warriors didn't need to be wiped out, that is as stupid as saying all the cavalrymen in western militaries had to be executed because horses were a liability with machine guns on the battlefield. The Thunder Warriors wouldve been integrated into the Legions and then died naturally. It's so obvious I guess it eludes them. As soon as the Great Crusade is over, you can demilitarize and send the legions to the frontier like literally every civilization ever. America didn't execute every single soldier coming home from Europe. It's just... stupid, sadly. Complexity for the sake of complexity without adding anything valuable at all.

on this point, i was wondering if there were any irl examples or people in power manufacturing internal

strife or civil unrest/war? apart from false flag conspiracy nut theories

There are none, because it’s either a revolution that catches its orchestrators up in the violence or one side wins and rewrites the rules. There’s never been a civil war where the winning side was executed for being too dangerous.

 

Which is also a massive problem with the way the authors are portraying the way people treat the loyalist legions. Imagine if allies liberated the concentration camps and the prisoners gave them . It’s mind boggling in its logic. People simply don’t work that way. Maybe in 40k where no one has ever seen a space marine but not in 30k where they are a staple of imperial culture.

 

 

mmm, you're likely right, but i might do some reading anyway.  the closest i can think of is the removal/dismantling/purge of the brown shirts; i know that's not a great analogy since it was due internal conflict rather than an orchestrated grand plan. also, the fact that enough people (despite what we might think of them) think that 9/11 was an inside job, isis was manufactured by the u.s.a and that all mass shootings are false flags at least gives the concept weight in the public consciousness. that to me says there's something of value in exploring it on an artistic level.

 

i mean, where else do you get to explore illuminati and depopulation type themes other than fiction? and dystopian sci fi/space opera/fantasy in particular? there's conspiracist websites, but they make me feel kinda ...icky.

 

i feel there's a point where artistic license can and should take flight to explore themes. if we only create things in terms of realism, we limit ideas. there needs to be room for the big what if? what if an imperfect emperor with a god complex ruled over humanity? things would get crazy.

 

ozymandias' grand plan in alan moore's watchmen suffers a lot of the same critique. i'm totally fine with it, but i know there's plenty of peeps that can't deal. they get hung up on the banal mechanics of it, rather than the thematic importance.

[MrDarth151]

 

Laurie mentioned on Twitter that things kicked off earlier than planned, and that Chaos wasn't supposed to be part of it - i.e., the original plan was for Horus (or whomever) to rebel purely because of the jealousy/abandonment/ambition issues, but then Chaos pulled a Joker and "took your little plan and turned it on itself."

 

I think this should be discussed more. I dont find the idea as terrible as others, because...I mean look at some of the Primarchs. They never had a place in an Imperium at peace.

 

 

The problem is, looking at it rationally, the Primarchs that were problematic hardly had a place in the Imperium at war. You basically have no justification as to why Emps just didn't let Angron die.

 

Doesn't change the fact that putting them against one another remains a monumentally stupid plan.

 

With respect, I think there is difference between humans coming home from war, and integrating with humans, and various levels of Transhuman, who we know (Outcast Dead) require upkeep to remain alive, or will live forever* (not really) in the case of Astartes.

 

When you are a person, you can reintegrate. When you had no reason to exist other than to kill, thats a bit harder.

 

Here's a thing: There is no problem of reintegration when it comes to Astartes, because they don't actually need to live within the boundaries of society. Why would you even need to reintegrate them?

 

And even then, we know for a fact that it's not impossible, because it has been done with both Salamanders and Ultramarines.

 

 

 

mmm, you're likely right, but i might do some reading anyway.  the closest i can think of is the removal/dismantling/purge of the brown shirts; i know that's not a great analogy since it was due internal conflict rather than an orchestrated grand plan. also, the fact that enough people (despite what we might think of them) think that 9/11 was an inside job, isis was manufactured by the u.s.a and that all mass shootings are false flags at least gives the concept weight in the public consciousness. that to me says there's something of value in exploring it on an artistic level.

 

i mean, where else do you get to explore illuminati and depopulation type themes other than fiction? and dystopian sci fi/space opera/fantasy in particular? there's conspiracist websites, but they make me feel kinda ...icky.

 

i feel there's a point where artistic license can and should take flight to explore themes. if we only create things in terms of realism, we limit ideas. there needs to be room for the big what if? what if an imperfect emperor with a god complex ruled over humanity? things would get crazy.

 

ozymandias' grand plan in alan moore's watchmen suffers a lot of the same critique. i'm totally fine with it, but i know there's plenty of peeps that can't deal. they get hung up on the banal mechanics of it, rather than the thematic importance.

 

 

You see, the problem with that is that it is all reliant on a single thing: Is this story you are sacrificing realism for good enough to justify it?

 

And considering this portrayal feels more and more like an attempt at character assassination every time I see BL touch it, you should really know my opinion on it by now.

[mc warhammer]

 

 

You see, the problem with that is that it is all reliant on a single thing: Is this story you are sacrificing realism for good enough to justify it?

 

And considering this portrayal feels more and more like an attempt at character assassination every time I see BL touch it, you should really know my opinion on it by now.

 

 

i feel we both have a reasonable understanding of each other's position on this.

 

and that's not to say i don't agree with the general thrust of what you're saying- i do. though i wouldn't phrase it in terms of a "problems" and "sacrifices", i'd say strengths and potential. essentially the same, with a different mindset.

 

at the time of writing this, BL haven't stepped over any lines for me. i'll reappraise as we go, and of course once the whole shebang is doneso.

[Ascanius]

With respect, I think there is difference between humans coming home from war, and integrating with humans, and various levels of Transhuman, who we know (Outcast Dead) require upkeep to remain alive, or will live forever* (not really) in the case of Astartes.

 

Sidenote: The Crimson King makes it explicit that Astartes won't live forever in the scene after Hathor Maat fixes Lucius's face.

[Perrin]

Assuming that Malcador was telling the truth and that the Heresy was planned from the start - why did the Emperor bother making 20 (18) different Primarchs?

 

Why not make 20 (18) Guillimans? That way there's no need for a rebellion cull, as they can function quite easily as sector governors, and the Space Marines can be designed with the same degenerative flaw as the Thunder Warriors were to ensure they eventually die off. That's without the obvious solution of simple attrition, as mentioned above by Marshal Rohr​.

 

Sure, there have been examples of Legions defeating opponents by using their own tactical gimmick, but I can't think of any threat that could only have been extinguished by a specific Legion's trait.

[Phoebus]

Jareddm,

 

I don't know if that was literally the case, as I remember quite a few balanced debates about the matter, on various fora. I will tell you this: the issue that a lot of people who took a dim view to that idea (full disclosure, I count myself among them) is that it appeared in a vacuum, and wasn't really touched on until Deliverance Lost - and even then, only tangentially so (the revelation that the primarchs were designed in specific ways, at least one of which anticipated his arrival to his future adopted homeworld).

 

mhacdebhandia,

 

Everything you described is certainly plausible given a judicious application of author's fiat, but the "collateral damage" left is that the protagonists of the Heresy feel neutered. Now, it's not just a matter of Chaos tragically corrupting and subverting their lives and purpose, but of their various tragic errors or decisions being part of a "greater plan" that somehow anticipates everything. I'm sorry, I don't want to sound dismissive, but that sounds like so much hand-waving. The sinister maneuverings of Chaos in False Gods and Deliverance Lost are now no longer examples of just how powerful the Ruinous Powers are - able to outmaneuver the Master of Mankind through their mastery of time and space - but part of a carefully-crafted scheme. I'm expected to go along with the idea that the Emperor knew Leman Russ was going to Fenris to begin with, so he couldn't be bothered by the fact that daemons were running around his most impenetrable dungeon to engineer the Heresy because that was somehow his intent.

 

It's the points that MrDarth151 and Perrin bring up that really spell out how ill-conceived (or at least ill-executed) this idea was. The various "specialized legions" are necessary only in the most broad, generalized sense. The Dark Angels and Ultramarines did just fine throughout the Great Crusade. Point of fact, they and the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus are consistently cited as among the most successful of the legions, and the XVIth were "specialists" only in that they were more aggressive and focused on what the Germans called a "schwerpunkt." In the lore previously made privy to us, this specialism was a function of the primarchs being scattered, and so it was accepted. Jaghatai Khan and his White Scars didn't become paragons of fast-striking mobile warfare because the Emperor needed a legion with that specific focus, but because that reflected the ethos of their adopted homeworld. Now, though, the Emperor has essentially pre-ordained that all twenty of his sons will go to specific places to become specific things... and this somehow makes more sense than twenty well-balanced, emotionally and mentally stable warlords who are informed and invested in his plans. Because, you know, that worked out terribly with Malcador.

 

Marshal Rohr,

 

The thing you have to remember is that the Emperor wasn't just culling regular soldiers. The Thunder Warriors were fundamentally unstable in a way that the Custodes and Astartes never were.

 

mc warhammer,

 

I have no problem with themes being explored, even when those are difficult and unusual. Assuming Malcador isn't lying to begin with, "the Emperor as the mastermind of the Heresy" is an idea that could have been handled better.

[Marshal Rohr]

They may have been unstable mentally, and they could’ve been used as shock troops against the witch clans and Xenos slavers to reconquer the solar system while only recruiting space marines to fill their ranks.

[Ascanius]

 

In the lore previously made privy to us, this specialism was a function of the primarchs being scattered, and so it was accepted. Jaghatai Khan and his White Scars didn't become paragons of fast-striking mobile warfare because the Emperor needed a legion with that specific focus, but because that reflected the ethos of their adopted homeworld. Now, though, the Emperor has essentially pre-ordained that all twenty of his sons will go to specific places to become specific things...

 

I think you've made an assumption here that isn't necessarily supported - namely, that the Emperor sent the Primarchs to their worlds and circumstances.

 

For one thing, it's been hinted at or suggested in previous sources that the scattering of the Primarchs wasn't planned - that at best, the Emperor may have made a deal with the Ruinous Powers at Molech and the scattering was the price of that deal, but that he had no control over where they went.

 

For another, while I can't recall the exact context right now I know one of the Primarchs was told by a daemon that Chaos influenced where the Primarchs ended up, so even if the Emperor had tried to send them away to specific places it may not have worked as planned.

 

On another topic:

 

 

 

The sinister maneuverings of Chaos in False Gods and Deliverance Lost are now no longer examples of just how powerful the Ruinous Powers are - able to outmaneuver the Master of Mankind through their mastery of time and space - but part of a carefully-crafted scheme.

 

As I understand it from what Laurie Goulding has said on Twitter and The First Expedition, this isn't correct; the whole point was that the Emperor intended for there to be a mundane civil war (caused by Horus's being set above the other Primarchs or whatever) but that Chaos's intervention made it happen a) before it was expected b) while the Emperor was dealing with Magnus's Folly c) with extra daemon sauce.

 

In other words, the idea is that the Emperor planned for some Legions to rebel, but not for those Legions to fall to Chaos.

 

Why on Terra the Emperor would expect Chaos to keep its nose out of his plans, I have no idea; my best guess is that he's so autocratic and manipulative that he stopped believing it was possible for anyone to disobey him in a manner he didn't intend for them to disobey him.

[Marshal Rohr]

If he had such total faith in his ability to control the Primarchs, he could’ve just.... asked them to stand down and beat swords into plow shares? Again, he didn’t need to engineer a convoluted a damaging revolution to get rid of the legions when he could’ve just sent the to the very edges of the Imperium to keep looking for aliens until they were depleted and then given them menial administrative jobs until they died.

[Phoebus]

Marshal Rohr,

 

To your earlier point, easier said than done.

 

mhacdebhandia,

 

It's an assumption born of what is shown in Deliverance Lost. Remember how the VI Legion template had canid structures?

 

Either way you cut it, this rebellion just strikes me as ill-timed revisionism. This line of discussion is barely a day old and people are able to point out glaringly obvious holes into this idea with too much ease. At best, this idea needed far better implementation than it's received.

[mc warhammer]

it’s entirely possible i’ve missed the bit where they made this incontrovertible fact in the lore. are we still talking only about this audio?

 

and if we are, isn’t it fair to assume that more will be revealed in time? and that questions may eventually be answered?

 

i’m a late reader, so forgive me if i’ve missed the content that’s caused this reaction. summaries and pointers all welcomed.