Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Psychic Powers

Beta Rules

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
78 replies to this topic

#1
Brother Tyler

Brother Tyler

    ++ FIDELIS MILITUS ++

  • +++ADMINISTRATUM+++
  • 20,668 posts
  • Location:The Temple of Oaths
  • Faction: VIIth Legion
Published here.

This rule will be tested at the Las Vegas Open and AdeptiCon (two of the largest Warhammer 40,000 events in the world) in 2018.
 

40kFAQFuture-Dec15-Boxout1e.jpg


Hidden Content


Meanwhile, this proposed change to Smite means that the power is still a great way to dish out mortal wounds, but one that you'll only be able to cast (easily) a few times in a turn. Using multiple psykers is still a great way to go, but rather than relying on a single trick, you'll benefit from using a wider pool of psychic powers to secure victory in your games.



#2
Plasmablasts

Plasmablasts

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 842 posts
Bit of trepidation, being the first to post here.

The obvious drawback to this beta rule is that it adds a second penalty to inherently psychic armies (e.g. Grey Knights) who already have a reduced efficacy Smite. Although there would be many possible solutions, I think the simplest would be to put an exemption from this beta rule into, e.g., the Rites of Banishment rule.
  • Dolchiate Remembrancer likes this

#3
Gentlemanloser

Gentlemanloser

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • +EXCOMMUNICATUS+
  • 14,653 posts

That wouldn't work for GK units that don't have Rites.

Like Stern, Purifiers, Ancients with the relic banner and Index Librarians in Terminator Armour.

You could tie it to Faction Keywords, like any unit with Faction GK isn't effected.

As looking as you're cool with Index Libraians having full power Smites not effected by this beta rule.

I still say this is addressing the wrong problem. Some units are design to only spam smite. Like zoanthripes. They literally have no other weapons to use.

The underlying problem is mortal wounds themselves, not the smite power.

Address mortal wounds instead.

This beta rule also goes against Smites design of dealing more damage on 10+. 3 failed or denied casts, not even successful ones, locks out smites increased damage for every other psyker in your army.

Personally, leave smite as it is. But not deal mortal wounds. Let the actual discipline powers, limited by the rule of one, be the route for mortal wounds.

And get rid of all baby smites.

Edit. This rule not only makes it harder to cast, but also easier for your opponent to deny.

Which is massive combined with the synergy some armies like chaos or nids have to punish you when you deny or fail a cast.

 

Edit2.  This also effects Characters who can cast 2 or more Psychic Powers, and know only 1 (or more) Discipline Power, with Smite as the 'other' power they can cast.  These characters points are based on their in built ability to cast Smite alongside the limited discipline powers they know.  This Beta rule impacts these characters more than those who can only cast 1 power per turn (which might be used on a Discipline power over Smite).

 

Edit3.

 

I fear for the testing process.  The state they are in, I doubt many, if any, players will take a Grey Knight army to either Tournament.  Therefore offering no feedback to GW on this Beta rule, from the two event they will actually take notice off.  Current rule changes have been based off of Tournament results, and that's bad when not all armies are represent equally at tournaments...


Edited by Gentlemanloser, 02 January 2018 - 11:54 AM.

  • Deamon Wolf, Soder and Capt. Mytre like this
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#4
Drakmoore

Drakmoore

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3 posts

This rule threatens the viability of Grey Knights ad any army that relies on baby smites in general. GW has given an email address 40KFAQ@gwplc.com  where you can email feedback on the new rules. As a community I suggest we all weigh in asking them to refrain from making this change to Smite for armies who rely on casting a lesser version. Please send an email telling them how you feel about this potential rules change before it gets permanently added to the game.



#5
Paladin777

Paladin777

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 900 posts
  • Location:US
  • Faction: Thousand Sons, Blood Angels
I think I speak for all the Thousand Sons players when I say we also have a lot of animosity towards this ruling. We have nearly as many smite casters as Grey Knights.

#6
Gentlemanloser

Gentlemanloser

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • +EXCOMMUNICATUS+
  • 14,653 posts
Its not just GK/TS.

Nids And Eldar (And those niche inquisitor/primaris psyker/malefic lord spam armies) Can put out comparable numbers of psykers if they wish, and suffer from this just as much as we do.
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#7
Kallas

Kallas

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,145 posts
  • Location:Edinburgh, UK
  • Faction: Howling Griffons

Nids And Eldar (And those niche inquisitor/primaris psyker/malefic lord spam armies) Can put out comparable numbers of psykers if they wish, and suffer from this just as much as we do.

 

Nids definitely aren't the same though. While they can potentially spam a bunch of Neurothropes (or whichever one it is), that's not the same as an army like GK/1KSons that have Troops with Smite-alike rules.

 

Eldar are the same, while they can bring a bunch of Warlocks and Spiritseers, they're more about using their (second set of) powers for buffing/debuffing, they're not a dedicated Psyker army.

 

Honestly, if someone is bringing ten Warlocks, or Neurothropes or whatever, just because Smite is super effective (which it is, especially in those kinds of numbers) then that's a problem with Smite. Which is kind of what the point of the Beta rules are trying to attenuate. I'd actually say that the Beta rule is probably fine, but probably does need some kind of exclusion clause for things like Grey Knights, Horrors and other core-unit-Smiters.


  • Oxydo likes this

#8
Khalan

Khalan

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 147 posts

This wouldn't be terrible with a few changes:

 

1) Make it so each SUCCESSFUL cast increases difficulty by one.

 

Small change but solves a few issues:

1) Doesn't lower the chance to hit a 10/12 for the D6

2) Doesn't make it easier to Deny every cast

3) Doesn't penalize you for getting nothing.


  • Chaplain Dosjetka likes this

#9
Gentlemanloser

Gentlemanloser

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • +EXCOMMUNICATUS+
  • 14,653 posts
Smite is not the problem.

The probkem is it deals Mortal wounds.

They are the problem.

No one would raise an eyebrow at smite spamming if it was just a normal 'weapon'.

And nids do spam neuros and zoans. And they literally have no other weapon other than smite.

Plus It's not even thither best route for spamming mortal wounds...
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#10
Kallas

Kallas

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,145 posts
  • Location:Edinburgh, UK
  • Faction: Howling Griffons

And nids do spam neuros and zoans. And they literally have no other weapon other than smite.

Plus It's not even thither best route for spamming mortal wounds...


Yes, people do spam them but that doesn't mean that Nids are a Psyker army - if anything it shows how stupidly powerful Smite can be.

And I do agree that the issue is the Mortal Wounds, they were supposed to be pretty rare (SM and IG get them through Stratagems mostly, for example, which are a limited resource) but Smite spam and things like Nids Biovores can throw out way too many, way too quickly.

#11
yergerjo

yergerjo

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 303 posts
  • Location:Jacksonville, Florida

And nids do spam neuros and zoans. And they literally have no other weapon other than smite.

Plus It's not even thither best route for spamming mortal wounds...

Yes, people do spam them but that doesn't mean that Nids are a Psyker army - if anything it shows how stupidly powerful Smite can be.

And I do agree that the issue is the Mortal Wounds, they were supposed to be pretty rare (SM and IG get them through Stratagems mostly, for example, which are a limited resource) but Smite spam and things like Nids Biovores can throw out way too many, way too quickly.

However in opposition to the rarity of MW we have an increase in 6+++ FNP in Iron Hands, Ulthwe, Power from Pain, access in Nids, rumored change to the Changeling...

As a TS player I acknowledge that there are ways around this Beta change...however the most fair I believe would revolve around a progressive increase to the WC rather than the successive penalty. If the penalty would remain then leave it only for a success rather than an attempt, this would help those with "baby Smites".

#12
Brother Tyler

Brother Tyler

    ++ FIDELIS MILITUS ++

  • +++ADMINISTRATUM+++
  • 20,668 posts
  • Location:The Temple of Oaths
  • Faction: VIIth Legion

So I see a lot of theory here.

 

Has anyone actually playtested the beta rule? If so, under what conditions? Does the beta rule work better than the current rule? Does it work worse? Could it be improved? If so, how?


gallery_26_548_13550.pnggallery_26_6416_0.gifgallery_26_548_4494.pnggallery_26_6416_0.gifgallery_26_14910_14794.png


#13
Khalan

Khalan

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 147 posts

So I see a lot of theory here.

 

Has anyone actually playtested the beta rule? If so, under what conditions? Does the beta rule work better than the current rule? Does it work worse? Could it be improved? If so, how?

I played a game with it recently, and I have 7 smites normally, but with the rule after the 3rd the rest is not happening (Play Tsons/Demons)



#14
yergerjo

yergerjo

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 303 posts
  • Location:Jacksonville, Florida
I did as well.

Ahriman +1
Demon Prince
Exalted Sorc with Eye of Tzeentch

4 Aspiring Specs across 4 Rubric Squads.

I'd get 2 Smites off a turn on average...wasn't even worth it with the AspSorcs at that point.

Internal Gaze was better

#15
Gentlemanloser

Gentlemanloser

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • +EXCOMMUNICATUS+
  • 14,653 posts
BT, there's no reason to play this rule.

It's downsides are readily apparent.
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#16
Excessus

Excessus

    ++ APPORTO FERMENTUM ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 6,313 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Faction: Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons

BT, there's no reason to play this rule.

It's downsides are readily apparent.

 

Yes but apparantely they don't see that so you'll have to convince them...and without proper arguments and data, it's basically just whining...

 

So go and mathhammer the heck out of it, and/or build lists and play and get all empirical on them...


  • Chaplain Dosjetka likes this
"Deception IS the point. Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it from the moment he saw us. Now, he has to calculate what he can't see. And fear what he doesn't know."

Alpha Legion Cell #379, Thousand Sons and other friends - The corruption of cell #379
The Serpent's Lair - Alpha Legion Forum
+++ DIU AD BELLI - Legion War! +++ (2017 ETL replacement)

gallery_48988_10980_12646.pnggallery_29004_9303_652.pngEcJeVZz.pnggallery_48988_13169_1292.pnggallery_48988_10069_14888.pnggallery_61265_13249_83587.png

#17
Gentlemanloser

Gentlemanloser

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • +EXCOMMUNICATUS+
  • 14,653 posts
I've just played 20 games and they all match the observations i posted above. ;)

Edit. As my opponents in these matches either had no psykers in thither armies or only ran a single super powerful libby like Tiggy, Beta rule had no effect on them.

Edited by Gentlemanloser, 06 January 2018 - 05:44 PM.

QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#18
Captain Idaho

Captain Idaho

    ++ ARGENTARIUS IRACUNDUS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 16,708 posts
  • Location:Hampshire, England
  • Faction: Ultramarines
I'm taking part in a tournament end of month so I'll let everyone know how it went on.

My friend is a Grey Knight player so I'll have plenty of data from that event.

#19
Excessus

Excessus

    ++ APPORTO FERMENTUM ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 6,313 posts
  • Location:Sweden
  • Faction: Alpha Legion, Thousand Sons

I've just played 20 games and they all match the observations i posted above. ;)

I suggest you open with that next time. ;)

Personally I'm curious about how the TS codex handles psychic powers. Perhaps there will be some clues in it...
  • Gentlemanloser likes this
"Deception IS the point. Any fool can calculate strength. That one has been doing it from the moment he saw us. Now, he has to calculate what he can't see. And fear what he doesn't know."

Alpha Legion Cell #379, Thousand Sons and other friends - The corruption of cell #379
The Serpent's Lair - Alpha Legion Forum
+++ DIU AD BELLI - Legion War! +++ (2017 ETL replacement)

gallery_48988_10980_12646.pnggallery_29004_9303_652.pngEcJeVZz.pnggallery_48988_13169_1292.pnggallery_48988_10069_14888.pnggallery_61265_13249_83587.png

#20
yergerjo

yergerjo

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 303 posts
  • Location:Jacksonville, Florida
Wasn't February/March when we were supposed to ge5 the next update/nerf anyways by the GW schedule?

#21
Gentlemanloser

Gentlemanloser

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • +EXCOMMUNICATUS+
  • 14,653 posts
If we have to provide suggestions for improvements, rather than suggesting this rule is aiming at the wrong thing and impacts far too much of the game, and the entire idea should be scrapped. Then my improvement suggestion would be.

Make the -1 trigger from successful casts only.

Not failed attempts or successful denies.

And also ignore the minus when seeing if you trigger the bonus damage for a 10+ cast.

Edit scap that.

Make the penalty a +1 to the charge value. even capping at 10. From other sucessful cast only.

Solves both issues above. Plus doesn't make denies easier.

Still buffs enemy powers that trigger on failed casts. But that's just part of the inherant issue with this 'fix'.

Edited by Gentlemanloser, 08 January 2018 - 12:09 AM.

QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#22
Schlitzaf

Schlitzaf

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,620 posts
  • Location:Hazeorth Subsector
  • Faction: Black Templar: Dalthus Crusade
For GK and Thousand how many spells are you casting in a single turn? And somehow I doubt it’s a massive issue, espacially given GK Baby Smite. Sense your first 3 and half casts are gonna ‘pass’ anyways as GK (4 to 5 to 6 then 7).

Assuming half your powers are good that is 6.5 casts a turn. Like I get it, that is a nerf, but were you really casting smites 5+ times? And is losing only 2-3 wounds in that case such a big deal?

Edited by Schlitzaf, 11 January 2018 - 09:31 PM.

PEbafT7.png?1http://www.bolterand...althus-crusade/
Wish List:
BT Crusader Biker- http://www.bolterand...igensian-squad/
BT Primaris Crusaders - (WIP)
"Proper Tool for the Proper Job"

#23
Gentlemanloser

Gentlemanloser

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • +EXCOMMUNICATUS+
  • 14,653 posts
Yes. Really.

And yes.
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.

#24
Schlitzaf

Schlitzaf

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,620 posts
  • Location:Hazeorth Subsector
  • Faction: Black Templar: Dalthus Crusade
....why? Mind explaining how it would have made a difference in your games. If you 2-3 additional wounds on a target
PEbafT7.png?1http://www.bolterand...althus-crusade/
Wish List:
BT Crusader Biker- http://www.bolterand...igensian-squad/
BT Primaris Crusaders - (WIP)
"Proper Tool for the Proper Job"

#25
Gentlemanloser

Gentlemanloser

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • +EXCOMMUNICATUS+
  • 14,653 posts
Every turn for 5 to 7 turns.

That's a squad of terminators dead.

Just from smite.
QUOTE (Seahawk @ Jul 30 2011, 05:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We all feel different ways about different rules, but if you're traveling between different gaming groups or to tournaments, the only commonality is the rules as they are written. If you can get your opponent to agree with you on house-ruling something then that changes things, but until then all we can do is go by how things are written.





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Beta Rules

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users