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Which troops to get?


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#1
chapter master 454

chapter master 454

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So, with my recent arrival into the eldar ranks, my collection is a huge array of wraithbone constructs of various forms (more specifically: 15 wraithblades/guards, 3 Wraithlords, 3 war walkers, 3 farseers, eldrad and a hemlock). Now I feel I need to add to the main bulk, the troop choices.
 
The two options I am looking at are Guardian Defenders and Dire Avengers. Ignoring Rangers because I will not tolerate a troop choice being resin (and to be honest they are more of a specialist choice later in an armies building) and to be frank, the Storm Guardians don't appeal because of their need for an upgrade pack to make them which is just stupid.
 
The reason I ask is because Dire Avengers are strong more elite versions that have some really strong range game to them in being able to dish out serious hurt that way. This extra range gives them a strong ability to control where they can go and their overwatch benefit is really nice.
 
However for 80 points versus 60 (each avenger being 12 total because of their gun but because of only be 5 base they are cheaper) I could go for the guardians who don't pack a special rule but instead have numbers and the ability to bolster their ranks with big guns. While 160 for a full squad, within range they are 40 shuriken shots of 3+ to hit which is just silly (couple with Ulthwé black guardian stratagem to hit on 2 is nuts). They do lack range and thus would rely on their weapon support platforms to get damage in while these guys attempt to run across the board (which they can do, battle focus does remove the penalty for advancing and firing their assault weapons).
 
The main consideration here is that one squad I would do one strat with while the other would be a bit more flexible. On one hand, dire avengers are flexible and can go where needed. 18" range on their guns means their bubble of threat is greater and thus more able to harrass targets. On the other hand however, the guardians do have bulk and the stratagems fort them can be a big deal. The main thing is their range and I would be inclined to make use of the bonus CP givein by battalion to just webway strike them in (literally have 2 blocks of 20 + 2 weapon platforms with shuriken cannons) and have them turn 1 blitz infantry off the board wherever I want.
 
Which would you guys think is a better plan really? Go for the huge massed infantry blocks of webway striking or get a core of dire avengers to keep things flexible?

http://www.bolterand...rk-in-progress/ my own chapter, still working on it
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#2
Marshal Wolfhart

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Right now i have 20 Guardians and 10 Avengers ready, working on another 10 Avengers. The downfall of Dire Avengers compared to Guardians is that they have the exact same damage output once they are in range. Whether the better save, extra range and better overwatch are worth 50% price hike is debatable.

I often find that Guardians are easier for my opponent to avoid once they come within range. They might get to shoot once or twice a game. The 6" on the Avengers subjectively really seems to matter a lot. Still i think a Serpent is mandatory to keep your opponent from kiting tooo much.

The ability to deepstrike 20 Guardians with two platforms is one of the most powerful things in the codex. Add doom and you can severly hurt even tough units, wiping most in one go.

I own no Rangers so far. That might or might not change at some point, depending on whether i get my hands on metal ones... ;)


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#3
Karhedronuk

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I find that a mix of Troops often works well. I normally run 1 unit of Rangers for screening or objective camping and 2 units of Avengers to move up the field in 2000 points.

You say you don't like Rangers and that is fine. A mix of Guardians and Dire Avengers might work well too. 20 popping out of the Webway at a crucial point can be very powerful as a Guardian-bomb while 2 units of Avengers (ideally in Serpents) can operate more flexibly.

One thing I have found is that Guardians sitting back and camping on an Objective with a heavy weapon tend to be disappointing. A single heavy weapon rarely contributes that much and the rest of the Guardians are wasted unless your opponent obligingly moves into 12" and then stays there without inflicting heavy casualties on the Guardians.
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#4
Marshal Wolfhart

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I find that a mix of Troops often works well. I normally run 1 unit of Rangers for screening or objective camping and 2 units of Avengers to move up the field in 2000 points.

You say you don't like Rangers and that is fine. A mix of Guardians and Dire Avengers might work well too. 20 popping out of the Webway at a crucial point can be very powerful as a Guardian-bomb while 2 units of Avengers (ideally in Serpents) can operate more flexibly.

One thing I have found is that Guardians sitting back and camping on an Objective with a heavy weapon tend to be disappointing. A single heavy weapon rarely contributes that much and the rest of the Guardians are wasted unless your opponent obligingly moves into 12" and then stays there without inflicting heavy casualties on the Guardians.

 

I totaly agree on the last part. Guardians hanging back with heavys never worked for me, they are no high enough threat to be a deterrent and are easily removed once the enemy points some serious firepower their way. I tried throughout several games to have a unit or two of 10 hanging back as support for my Dark Reapers and heavy weapons, should something close in, but they never did anything useful and died too quickly to anything that tried (e.g. deep striking terminators, bolter down a unit of guardians and still charged my Dark Reapers. Sad day for the craftword...).

Their heavy weapons have too little impact for the amount of points you spend on those frail ablative wounds, while the 12" guns never add up. If i push them up the board they tend to work far better, as the opponent usually has more threats in his face so he won't focus on the Guardians. Webway strike doesn't need any more ovations i think :P it's brutal.


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#5
chapter master 454

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I find guardians having 12" weaponry a bit of a head scratcher. These are supposed to be Citizens, members of their general public who are only pressed into service as a dire resort and are only good because everyone has to go through basic military training. Yet...their basic weapon they give out is terrible for general use of troops. The imperial guard get a better deal with their 'barbaric' lasguns and yet they could have conscripts out gun guardians all day because they have 24" range. Seems a bit daft strategically to give your citizens a shock troopers gun (which they are, short range and high rate of fire). If they maybe could have 6 or even 8 weapon platforms with them it may of made sense but as it stands they are literally arming them as artillery crews and yet not giving them artillery. Might of been interesting to see such a unit that for a troop choice: poorly equipped infantry but their weapon platforms really shine.

 

Also as a curiosity: are the weapon platform guns the same as the ones that mount onto war walkers and wraithlords?

 

As a note: currently thinking I will mix it up. Get a full squad of 20 guardians with 2 platforms and 2 squads of 5 dire avengers and see how the single bomb does. From there, push more into the dire avengers to get upto 10 each there as since the guardians would prefer to have the stratagems they have access to, only one is really needed and is a cheap(ish) bomb to drop on the enemy (and if they live, great).


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#6
Torin

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i have a build of 40 guardian with asurmen.. simply awesome with a 4+ invul. they are good for defensive play. Having a group of 15 guardian defender would be good to.


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#7
Karhedronuk

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I find guardians having 12" weaponry a bit of a head scratcher. These are supposed to be Citizens, members of their general public who are only pressed into service as a dire resort and are only good because everyone has to go through basic military training. Yet...their basic weapon they give out is terrible for general use of troops.


I hear you! I have played since 1st edition and in the first 2 edition of the games, Shurican catapults had 24" range and were more dangerous than storm bolters so they fitted well with the fluff. Then in 3rd edition, Gav Thorpe decided that they should be like machine pistols and the fluff has never matched the rules since. sad.png If you look at real militias (like Switzerland), they are normally armed with longer ranged weapons so that can hang back a bit and still contribute. This combination of short range and poor armour is why I do not like Guardians. No wonder Eldar are a dying race.

Also as a curiosity: are the weapon platform guns the same as the ones that mount onto war walkers and wraithlords?


I think they are but I am not 100% sure. I know the Wave Serpent has different heavy weapons as they are mounted on axles rather than on a socket.
 

As a note: currently thinking I will mix it up. Get a full squad of 20 guardians with 2 platforms and 2 squads of 5 dire avengers and see how the single bomb does. From there, push more into the dire avengers to get upto 10 each there as since the guardians would prefer to have the stratagems they have access to, only one is really needed and is a cheap(ish) bomb to drop on the enemy (and if they live, great).


Sounds like a promising approach. There are several stratagems and/or characters who can help to support the Guardians on the turn they emerge from the Webway. I would not try to pile too much on as you will start to lose the points efficiency but given that they put out 40+ shots, stacking one or two reroll buffs on them and possibly celestial shield the next turn may be a good investment.

Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.


#8
chapter master 454

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I play Ulthwé so I can activate the black guardian stratagem so if I could get a decent autarch (think I may consider trying to get some bits together and maybe create a dual avenger-shuriken catapult autarch with hawk wings so he can drop in or maybe even a warp spider).

http://www.bolterand...rk-in-progress/ my own chapter, still working on it
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#9
Marshal Wolfhart

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Weapon platforms fit with warwalkers and wraithlords, merely the gap in the shield of the platform can be a bit narrow, so you might want to file those a bit wider to not scrape off paint (or it's just me, as i failed to put the magnets in the exact same spot for all mounts/guns, so that might well be the difference...)


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#10
CrystalSeer

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First off, congratulations on choosing the right craftworld :D.

 

Like most stuff in this game, I think it really depends on what you're trying to do. Guardians are really good at getting of volume of fire and controlling space, because they are cheap. The Black Guardian strategem also pumps them up well. These are my go to.

 

I have issues with avengers, because their damage output per cost is really no different than guardians, so you're paying  a premium for survive ability and range. However, to get them to be surviveable, you really need asurman. Multiple squads plus support gets kind of expensive, and they're still pretty squishy.

 

Even with this, it depends on play style. I usually have a lot of shooting in the back, so enemies are forced to run up to my Guardians. They get to play a counter-assault and bubble wrap role. They serve this purpose very well, as they are cheap, can be given a 4++ for 1CP, and the short range is mitigated by the enemy coming to you.

 

Avengers make a bit more sense with a mechanized assault, as your unit size is limited. I find this role better served by wraithguard however.



#11
chapter master 454

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First off, congratulations on choosing the right craftworld biggrin.png.
 
Like most stuff in this game, I think it really depends on what you're trying to do. Guardians are really good at getting of volume of fire and controlling space, because they are cheap. The Black Guardian strategem also pumps them up well. These are my go to.
 
I have issues with avengers, because their damage output per cost is really no different than guardians, so you're paying  a premium for survive ability and range. However, to get them to be surviveable, you really need asurman. Multiple squads plus support gets kind of expensive, and they're still pretty squishy.
 
Even with this, it depends on play style. I usually have a lot of shooting in the back, so enemies are forced to run up to my Guardians. They get to play a counter-assault and bubble wrap role. They serve this purpose very well, as they are cheap, can be given a 4++ for 1CP, and the short range is mitigated by the enemy coming to you.
 
Avengers make a bit more sense with a mechanized assault, as your unit size is limited. I find this role better served by wraithguard however.

 
I picked Ulthwé because of the Colour scheme. Like the emperor's left nut am I going to paint yellow for Iyanden, I have had enough blue from my own chapter, Biel-tan green doesn't appeal and I don't fancy doing Eldar blood Angels XD!
 
For Dire Avengers their max unit size with john woo exarch is 124 points compared to marines at 130. To me, they are incredibly potent looking all things considered. The main thing is I am using them to fill out a battalion as my troops and the idea is the opponent will need to chew through the first 20 guardians or be swarmed in shuriken fire forever more. This would mean the Dire Avengers will maybe get a turn of no issue. On top of that I do have Wraithhost running around so...I think they will be fine running around by themselves (they are meant to get objectives and be annoying. I don't expect them to do amazing things!)
 
One thing I will say is that Avengers are not worth giving the shimmershield due to how it inflates their cost for so little (5++ is nice but not worth 20+ points). One day I do intend of likely having the full set of all the phoenix lords, they all look like solid choices that have good abilities and seem respectable at their trade.

http://www.bolterand...rk-in-progress/ my own chapter, still working on it
"The objective of playing a game is to win. The point of playing a game is to have fun. Never confuse the two"

What do you call an Imperial Guardsman with a laser sight? Twin-Linked!

 

 


#12
Dr. Clock

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Both. Since you'll be taking three units most of the time for the CP, you can't go too far wrong with a mixture.

 

My go-to would be 15-20 Guardians, 10 DA in a Serpent and then 5 DA in a serpent or falcon for objectives further afield.

 

Guardians have worked pretty well with WLords and Farseers for a few editions now, though WLords have seen less play due to the Knight being released. Still an all, remember that the bigger the unit the more effective a buff on that unit will be. You can turn Guardians into a much more solid unit than they are on paper just by supporting them with psychics... or with a well-timed Strategem (or both).

 

It's true that the 12" range since 3rd ed. has created some weird dynamics for 'citizen levy'. It would be nice to at least have the option of lasblasters again - something like Assault 2 24" S:3 AP- with 6 to hit generating an extra hit would make sense IMO and give us something more substantial for camping/kiting infantry. Heck, there's a case to be made for giving them 30" range IMO. As-is guardians obviously end up advancing a great deal. I've long had decent success with a large unit plus a WLord pushing centre under covering fire... they usually die, but they also usually help me dictate the flow of the battle. 

 

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#13
Wolf Priest Redbeard

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The base of my Eldar is 3x 10 Guardian squads in Wave Serpents. The way I use them is to grab a objective here and there and to mop up a enemy unit that has strayed away from its pack. It works fairly well for me. I dont count on them to do any miracles. They are just there to do their thing. The heavy lifting I let the rest of the army do.


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#14
tdemayo

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Having messed about with the three major troop options lately, I think it mostly depends on what you want to do with your toops.

Dire Avengers are aggressive troops, with the speed, range, and durability to go out and attack stuff. 18" range + 7" move + advance is pretty respectable. Their 4+ armor save is mediocre, but Asuramen or the shield can give then a nice invulnerable save. Yeah, if you look only at damage output, they seem pricey compared to guardians. But that 18" range is worth a lot. It lets them move, fire, and stack multiple units on a single target. Multiple units have a multiplier effect. When 2-3 units shoot a single target, they are really nasty. The 6+ AP -3, combined with an 18 range, and maybe a doom, means they can credibly threaten any thing in the game. Mine killed a monolith the other day. They work well as mounted troops. I prefer to run three units of ten in wave serpents, with Asurmen, but no shields.

Guardians work well as defensive troops. Parked in a ruin, at 20 strong, they can be hard to shift. Their platform gives them ranged punch, and all those shuripilts means that in emergency, they can walk up just a bit closer and unload on anything that gets too close. Their shorter ranged shuripults, however, make them less useful moving in the open. I like them with Warlocks giving then -1 to be hit and/or +1 to save. There's a 1pt stratagem that can give them a 4++ save. I've played games where they lost only 1-2 guys while hiding in the backfield. Their job is to hold and not die. I prefer to run mine in units of 20, with two platforms and a warlock.

Rangers are cheap and sneaky. They have a deployment option allowing you to play various tricks. They are good for providing some ob sec troops without paying very much. Their damage output is mediocre at best. So if you want to annoy your oponent, contest objectives, and do a little bit of incidental sniping, they can be fairly useful. 2-3 units of five provide a nice distracting troops choice. Beware scenarios based on kill points, though.

Storm guardians.... Yeah, storm guardians. I sorta forgot about them. They have numbers, they can be made better with warlocks, and they can take special weapons. Whatever. I have some old metal Eldar from RT with nth weapons. Maybe I'll dust off and repaint them for nostalgia.

Edited by tdemayo, 17 January 2018 - 11:52 PM.

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