Mort's BA-Dex Observations.

[Panzer]

Honestly I can live with not having access to the Shield when taking the Relic blade. The captain has a 4++ already anyway. My problem is that the Thunderhammer simply looks superior on paper.

[Firepower]

I feel like I need a picture to explain the tri-lock thing.  People just running out of combat is murder for my Templars.  I've got some Vanguard painted up recently that I'd like to actually, y'know, accomplish something. :lol:

[Morticon]

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Best i can do, now that they dinged the imge share site i used. 

[Xenith]

I feel like I need a picture to explain the tri-lock thing. People just running out of combat is murder for my Templars. I've got some Vanguard painted up recently that I'd like to actually, y'know, accomplish something. :lol:

You basically use your mobility to surround an enemy model in a unit - if the enemy model cannot move between your models bases, then it cannot fall back from combat.

 

It's called tri-lock because 3 models is the minimum you need to create gaps too small for the opponent to move out of.

[Firepower]

Wow, that's...mean.  

[Charlo]

The last part of it is that, you do it to a second unit you have charged but do not attack. This way your opponent cannot just remove the model as a casualty either.

[Brother Aether]

 

If anyone could run the numbers of a libby (or anyone else) with 3 attacks rocking a Sword, Axe and Staff(/maul) with the BA ability charging and see what they look like vs. T3-8 that would be so helpful! 

Just a cursory overview- T7/8 will have the same wound rate for the Maul and Axe (meaning axe wins out there). While the sword and axe will have the same to wound rate at T6/7 which means the sword wins out there.  The real math will come at the S3-S5 level, I think

 

Sword vs Axe, I'll assume 1 attack (then you can just multiply based on how many extra attacks you get from Quickening/Red Rampage!), Red Thirst is active, and I'll also ignore damage, as that's essentially the save after failed saves for each (essential 2 for the average):

 

T3/Sv4+ (eg, Scions)

1*0.66 = 0.66 hits

0.66*0.833 = 0.55 wounds

 

Sword, 0.55*1 = 0.55 failed saves

Axe, 0.55*0.833 = 0.458 failed saves

Identical vs Sv5+/GEQs

 

T4/Sv3+ (MEQ)

Sword:

0.66*0.66 = 0.44 wounds

0.44*0.833 = 0.367 failed saves vs 3+

0.44*0.66 = 0.29 failed saves vs 2+

 

Axe:

0.66*0.833 = 0.55 wounds

0.55*0.66 = 0.363 failed saves vs 3+

0.55*0.5 = 0.275 failed saves vs 2+

 

T5-7

Sword:

0.66*0.5 = 0.33 wounds

0.5*0.833 = 0.417 failed saves vs 3+

0.5*0.66 = 0.33 failed saves vs 2+

 

Axe:

0.66*0.66 = 0.44 wounds

0.44*0.66 = 0.29 failed saves vs 3+

0.44*0.5 = 0.218 failed saves vs 2+

 

T8

Sword:

0.66*0.33 = 0.218 wounds

0.218*0.833 = 0.182 failed saves vs 3+

0.218*0.66 = 0.144 failed saves vs 2+

 

Axe:

0.66*0.5 = 0.33 wounds

0.33*0.66 = 0.218 failed saves vs 3+

0.33*0.5 = 0.165 failed saves vs 2+

 

 

Analysis

Sword is better against everything up to T7, then the Axe is better. Against things with low save (like 4/5+) but high Toughness (5+) the Axe is a little better (Hive Guard; T5/4+ = Sword 0.33 vs Axe 0.363). Overall, the Sword is a better all-rounder, with the Axe being best against high-ish Toughness models with good saves (eg, Storm Shields: T4/3++ = Sword, 0.144 vs Axe, 0.181).

 

 

Thanks so much Kallas! Definitely need to bookmark this part of the thread or something.

 

 

Hey Mort,

 

Really enjoying this thread. Do you think that it would be worth having a Force Axe for the additional cost on your Librarian, so that you can get a few more wounds thrown on the DG/GK as well? (I'm thinking about doing a librarian like that myself).

Heya buddy - I'm not sure.  

 

I stand to be corrected here, but I think the math hammer shows the Sword Come out tops in most situations? 

 

If anyone could run the numbers of a libby (or anyone else) with 3 attacks rocking a Sword, Axe and Staff(/maul) with the BA ability charging and see what they look like vs. T3-8 that would be so helpful! 

 

Thanks. 

 

Just a cursory overview- T7/8 will have the same wound rate for the Maul and Axe (meaning axe wins out there). While the sword and axe will have the same to wound rate at T6/7 which means the sword wins out there.  The real math will come at the S3-S5 level, I think 

 

 

Great point, and based on the above math by Kallas the sword is a better all-rounder. I was likely planning on going with the axe based on a few things: (1) I already own the model, and (2) I was considering using my librarian with JP and Force Axe to hunt characters, which likely means the better wound rate against opponents with good Invuln saves (like enemy captains, Storm Shield-equipped troops, etc).

 

Thank you both for your input and ideas! Definitely helps me be more clear in defining how I view use of that Librarian.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Brother Aether

[Morticon]

Played vs. a cool DA list today. 

Still mid game, but it looks likely that the BA are going to take it. 

Inceptors did very well - despite taking heavy return fire after dropping- i just think their tactical viability is too good.  I'll almost definitely include 1 squad in most my lists.

 

The sternguard were amazing.  Just an axe sarge and 7 bodies.  I want to increase the bodies- but they're pricey. Their -2 is GREAT and their ability to use the +1 to wound strat is fantastic. Counter drops will suffer too with aupex scan. 

If ever I play a mephy drop pod, they will be the support here.  


I'm finding im NEVER using BA bubbles.  DOA is used to make the assault, along with meph.  Angels Wing is a potential on some character, as is a Lemmy reroll but in all my games so far, i've not had, nor needed the bubble buffs.  Smashy Cap and smashy Meph seem a far better choice. 

Also played uber-CP mining with the IG Commander-miner and a veritas Captain . That may be my go-to tourney  combo.  Too good for the CP guzzling BA to ignore. 

[Blackcadian]

Played vs. a cool DA list today. 

Still mid game, but it looks likely that the BA are going to take it. 

Inceptors did very well - despite taking heavy return fire after dropping- i just think their tactical viability is too good.  I'll almost definitely include 1 squad in most my lists.

 

The sternguard were amazing.  Just an axe sarge and 7 bodies.  I want to increase the bodies- but they're pricey. Their -2 is GREAT and their ability to use the +1 to wound strat is fantastic. Counter drops will suffer too with aupex scan. 

If ever I play a mephy drop pod, they will be the support here.  

I'm finding im NEVER using BA bubbles.  DOA is used to make the assault, along with meph.  Angels Wing is a potential on some character, as is a Lemmy reroll but in all my games so far, i've not had, nor needed the bubble buffs.  Smashy Cap and smashy Meph seem a far better choice. 

Also played uber-CP mining with the IG Commander-miner and a veritas Captain . That may be my go-to tourney  combo.  Too good for the CP guzzling BA to ignore.

 

Thanks for this thread, I‘ve been following it for a couple of days now.

 

How are you finding the Veritas so far? Originally I thought its an auto include, but then I noticed that you don’t roll for every CP spent but for every stratagem used, which makes it a lot less attractive imo. Say you’re starting off with 7, drop one for the 2nd relic, whcih you cant roll for, drop another for the DC captain which you also cant roll for... you see where Im going? :/

[Paladin777]

I would say that the more command points you have the more worth it is. If you’re playing a 4000 point apocalypse game it’s probably an auto include even if you have to pay three command points to get it, A 1000 point game where you maybe have six … Not so much.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

Played vs. a cool DA list today.

Still mid game, but it looks likely that the BA are going to take it.

Inceptors did very well - despite taking heavy return fire after dropping- i just think their tactical viability is too good. I'll almost definitely include 1 squad in most my lists.

 

The sternguard were amazing. Just an axe sarge and 7 bodies. I want to increase the bodies- but they're pricey. Their -2 is GREAT and their ability to use the +1 to wound strat is fantastic. Counter drops will suffer too with aupex scan.

If ever I play a mephy drop pod, they will be the support here.

I'm finding im NEVER using BA bubbles. DOA is used to make the assault, along with meph. Angels Wing is a potential on some character, as is a Lemmy reroll but in all my games so far, i've not had, nor needed the bubble buffs. Smashy Cap and smashy Meph seem a far better choice.

Also played uber-CP mining with the IG Commander-miner and a veritas Captain . That may be my go-to tourney combo. Too good for the CP guzzling BA to ignore.

 

Thanks for this thread, I‘ve been following it for a couple of days now.

 

How are you finding the Veritas so far? Originally I thought its an auto include, but then I noticed that you don’t roll for every CP spent but for every stratagem used, which makes it a lot less attractive imo. Say you’re starting off with 7, drop one for the 2nd relic, whcih you cant roll for, drop another for the DC captain which you also cant roll for... you see where Im going? :/

That's the whole point. Internal balance so you have to pick and choose.

 

2 CPs for a second relic and DVoS seems fair.

 

It's deciding which is more important.

[Kallas]

That's one reason I have been practicing my Brigade - gives me plenty of CP (10, after buying the Veritas Vitae and Death Visions) which really does help. It's like all of the CP regen ones though: the more CP you start with the more effective they are.

[Panzer]

Well to be fair...the second relic would be the veritas. Roll one 5+ and you got the points back. Roll another 5+ and you already got more CP than you would've without it. Of course take everything +1 if it's your third relic etc.

[Morticon]

 

Thanks for this thread, I‘ve been following it for a couple of days now.

 

How are you finding the Veritas so far? Originally I thought its an auto include, but then I noticed that you don’t roll for every CP spent but for every stratagem used, which makes it a lot less attractive imo. Say you’re starting off with 7, drop one for the 2nd relic, whcih you cant roll for, drop another for the DC captain which you also cant roll for... you see where Im going? :/

 

 

Heya Blackcadian, 

 

I think I would not bother playing Veritas by itself. 

 

However, with the Kurov/Grand Strat IG Commander in the Aux Detachment, every time I use a one CP strat, I roll 2d6.  If I use a two CP strat, I roll 3d6, and so on. 

 

In one round, I got MORE CP back than I used.  I believe that, unless people are building to specific WL traits, most tourney scenes are going to see their Imperial players using the IG commander. Its too good.   

[Diagramdude]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/342502-fight-phase-tactica/

 

This is the original "tri-lock" thread I made awhile back, credit to Mort tho for coining the phrase!

[Morticon]

Thats it!!!!! 

Thanks so much for that dude, muchly appreciated. 

[Morticon]

Trying this next:

 

Captain - JP, Hammer, MC Bolter.

Mephy 

Lieutenant  -  Hammer (Veritas)
CP Miner (IG  Commander)

 

5 Intercessors - grenade

5 Intercessors - grenade

5 Scouts- HB, bolters

5 Scouts- Axe, CCW

5 Scouts -  CCW

5 Scouts -Bolters

 

10 DC  - Axe, Sword, Hammer, Bolters

8 VanVet - Axe, Sword, Hammer, 5 Shields

Relic Scorpios

 

Whirlwind - Vengeance

Whirlwind - Castellan

Rapier - Quad Launcher

Tarantula

Tarantula

3 Intercessors

[ThatOneMarshal]

Hey mort, as always it’s awesome to see your tactical analysis. I was wondering how you feel about the vanguard? What role do they usually play on the table for you? Do you usually deep strike them in or just have them start on the table? It’s been a unit that I’ve been wanting to put on the table since 5th, however I haven’t been able to since they’ve been outclassed by things.

 

Keep up the good work and kicking ass in the name of Sanguinius!

[Jolemai]

How are you fielding the IG Commander? Only any Detachment he is in with BAs means they lose Red Thirst and (what was) Objective Secured.

[Charlo]

Aye, or you take him as an Auxiliary for -1CP.

[Panzer]

How are you fielding the IG Commander? Only any Detachment he is in with BAs means they lose Red Thirst and (what was) Objective Secured.

Since there are no other AM units I'd say in an Auxiliary detachment. Since he's a CP miner the -1CP shouldn't matter much.

[Kappel]

Would it make sense to use a Primaris Psyker instead of a Company Commander, simple because he brings a bit more punch for only 16 points more? 

[Morticon]

 

How are you fielding the IG Commander? Only any Detachment he is in with BAs means they lose Red Thirst and (what was) Objective Secured.

Since there are no other AM units I'd say in an Auxiliary detachment. Since he's a CP miner the -1CP shouldn't matter much.

 

sfP got it right.  Took the -1 CP hit to get him in for 30 points. 

 

Would it make sense to use a Primaris Psyker instead of a Company Commander, simple because he brings a bit more punch for only 16 points more? 

Sadly only officers can take the Aquila ! 

[Kappel]

Ah - I see Mort. Thx.

[Morticon]

Up against a disgusting Eldar list. 

 

(Alaitoc rules)

 

Farseer

Autarch (wl) - reaper, wings

Illiac

 

3x 5 Rangers

7x 3 Reapers

1x 4 Reapers

 

4x Hemlocks 

 

Gonna see what I can do with the list!