Mort's BA-Dex Observations.

[Morticon]

Hey all. 

I'm going to try post a few of my thoughts, builds, and mini-reports as I go.  I dont have the chance to game as much as Id like living in Beijing now, but Im still managing every now and then. 

I've been toying with variants on a brigade theme - just playing with different units. 

The most recent version was this:

 

Mephy

Lemmy

Smashy Cap (Hammer of Baal, Shield, Death Visions, Gift of Foresight) 

 

2x5 Intercessors

1x5 Tacticals - Melta, Hammer

2x5 Scouts - CCW - Pwr Swrd

1x5 Scouts - shotguns

 

9x DC - Hammer, 2Swrds, bolters

8x VanVets - Hammer, 2swrds, 5shields

Sang Ancient - banner

 

2x Tarantulas

4x Inceptors 

 

2x Rapiers - quad mortar

1x Dev - cherub, 2las, plas

 

Drop Pod 

 

 

_______


BUILD OVERVIEW:

 

I start off with 2 less CP (so 10) on account of the 2nd Relic. I'm debating the use of the banner at the moment.  It has come in handy, but I'm not entirely sure its the best choice for me, yet.   

Mephy and Lemmy are there as the heavy hitters- Lemmy just puts out so much damage for his cost, and the associated buffs to the DC are too good to not have him.  

 

Captain Smashytank is great.  The 3++/5+++ is really beneficial given that he can solo without the need for the Ancient around for his FNP.  Also means that Meph and him have annoying 5+++'s. 

 

I didnt find I missed the priest, and felt his smashyness to be more beneficial than the priests buffs (although, losing the ability to heal wounds was missed). 

 

The Tarantulas are just there for cheap FA slots, as are the Rapiers- which also provide some solid non-los shots from afar.  I'd love another squad of Devs, but the points are an issue- and I prefer the no LOS shots from the rapiers.  

 

The DC are almost auto-include on account of the Lemmy combo and Forlorn Fury options. I want to try find a way to get them to 12 men strong, but am too nervous to increase them much higher as their low LD when not near Lemmy means that if the squad is targeted heavily and they lose, say 7 men, any die roll will see losses.  Theyre just very tactically flexible with a chunky squad. 

 

The vanvets are another autoinclude for me.  High damage output, and with the shields, theyre even more survivable than the DC.  I will test a 2nd build with no DC and no Lemmy just to change things up.   

 

The troop selection is stock standard for 5 units (the scouts and inters).  I love the intercessors in support roles.  They're very slow, but really tanky and provide some solid back/mid-field roles. 

The scouts are a necessity.  I will not play competitively without at least +-15 of these guys (maybe 2x7/8 or usually 3x5). Their ability to mitigate alpha drops is just completely a requirement in any serious play imo.

Unfortunately, they rarely, if ever see combat, so I'm slowly gravitating towards bolters again...unsure though.  More thoughts from community welcome here. 

The Tac squad is usually either a las-caddy squad, or in the case of a pod list, usually a melta/melta unit.  I went for a hammer just to try things out.   I dont think i'll waste the points there again, though. 

 

Finally, i tried out Inceptors for the first time.  They did reasonably well in this game (underutilised, but I can definitely see their potential).  I think I would try always run them as a squad of 4 with the bolters, though, the potential for killy, killy death and plasma is still floating around my head.  They also synergise beautifully with Wings of Fire.  I think my tactic will try be to play them as mid/later game units, and keep them out of LOS from most, rather than shock troops getting in the thick of things. Almost like Tau/Eldar tactics? 

 

 

OVERALL THOUGHTS (Game vs Tau). 

I played a game vs Tau - basically a test list -nothing too optimised.  There was a LOT of LOS blocking terrain, so that changed things considerably in my favour, i feel.  Also, the Tau were spread out across the long table edge, rather than castled heavily, so i could engage ranks at a time.  I fluffed most of my first turn charges (mephy aside) - but made up for it by getting everything i needed into combat in turn 2, and smashing the back of the army. 

Using the triangle lock in tactic I was able to stay in combat too- and its now my favourite BA tactic to use.  

 

I've learned the following:

 

1.  Declare charges on multiple units - even ones far away - even if it opens you up to more overwatch.  WHY? 

 

This way you can not only consolidate in AND attack that unit (whereas before you could maybe trap them in, but not fight) but more importantly you could use Honour the Chapter on that unit.  

MORE IMPORTANTLY - you can attack one unit, ignore the other, and then lock yourself in to the unit you ignored using the tri-lock.  (Imma call it tri-lock from now).

 

2.  If opponents are bubble-wrapping - and doing it with units close - dont shoot the primary bubble wrap. 

 

This is because you reduce the amount of models you can tri-lock AND more importantly, wiley opponents will remove those locked models after bad morale.  Rather wipe those units out in the next round of combat.  

 

3. If you're relying on a 9" charge - I believe you're wasting your time.  When you "rely" on something that is has a higher chance of NOT happening than happening, you're looking for trouble.  Stack your odds.  Use Descent of Angels - and if you can use it on something with rerolls (even better).  This 

 

4.  Always* keep your DC in reserve.  

We've mentioned this in a few threads, but, for the first time since the new dex, I was deployed my DC.  I deployed them because conditions were right.  Dawn of War, and +1 to go first for me - AND, limited no LOS shots from the Tau. 
I still lost the first turn, so I had to burn 2 CP not to move them closer, but to essentially run them backwards and behind a ruin :/  I felt it was a 2CP(/3CP) gamble -and at the rate that BA burn CP, I'm not sure it was a gamble that is worth it.  (I say 3CP because you will then need to Wings of Fire them, rather than a support character).  

Worst case is they take fire and you lose X number of DC that you didnt need to lose in the first place.  If you're playing a CP mining army with an IG commander, then maybe you can make this gamble. 

This was best case scenario, and still...so, yeah. I think I will only try this on the rarest of occasions. Basically when its all or nothing, and when I know I can protect the DC from incoming fire.  Otherwise, you cant co-ordinate your assaults with the vanguard (see point 3!).  Vanvets doing the 3d6 and DC doing the Lemmy Reroll.  (With mephy doing the pod hop). 
 

 

 

That's all for now all.  Will add to this thread as I play.  Thanks. 

 

 

[Are Verlo]

Great post. I like you sharing the post battle thoughts. One very important part missing in the «vs tau battle summary» is the mission/victory condition.

Was it maelstrom, eternal war or custom scenario? That would influence how you play and deploy.

Edit: spelling

Edited January 14, 2018 by Are Verlo

[Shaezus]

That's a thoughtful list, Mort. Congrats on the win too, goes to show that Forlorn Fury has more than one use huh :p

 

It seems that the least flashiest things are those that can make the biggest difference; the combination of troop types is solid, flexible and as you say a necessity for holding off alpha strikes. How does that troop selection fare in the board control / objective contesting side of the game?

 

The weakness with the BA dex seems to be finding something BA-specific which will work every time. Nodding to the 9-inch charge here, the Lemmy and DC combo are the most reliable thing and I'd probably use DoA on the DC to combine with the reroll. I think the maths puts this at a 93% chance of getting the 9" charge.

 

Looking forward to following your progress in battle!

[Morticon]

Great post. I like you sharing the post battle thoughts. One very importat part missing in the «vs tau battle summary» is the mission/victory condition.

 

Was it maelstrom, eternal war or custom scenario? That would influence how you play and deploy.

 

Edit: spelling

 

 

Great catch. Thanks. 

 

It was 5 objectives! (Retrieval?) And, yeah, eternal war! :)

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

Great overview. I personally don't think DC are too great this edition. They need something like what Berserkers have yet don't. Vanguard with twin chainswords do the same job but better and all the time due to always having 4 attacks rather than 3/4 charging. Not a mind they're cheaper and you realistically need to bring Lemmy for the DC too. People will say they can take Bolters and what not but meh 7/8 Bolters isn't going to do too much.

[Morticon]

How does that troop selection fare in the board control / objective contesting side of the game?

 

Interestingly enough, really well.  The targeting rules of the rapiers mean that the crew almost always survive to claim back row.  Good deployment with back row stuff (no LOS rapiers) and then the tarantulas, then coupled with the scouts, mean that there is little happening back field.  And because we're primarily aggressive, the back ranks only get the hits their way in the first two rounds of the game.  (Which tragically in 8th is enough to table you, for sure).  I will need to play against more optimized and more brutal combinations - but its nice to know that there are choices. 

 

I'm just needing to find a way to maximise my aggressive forces.  9DC, 8VV, 4 inceptors and the Tac squad isnt near enough.  (Characters too- but yeah, still need a little more). 

 

The weakness with the BA dex seems to be finding something BA-specific which will work every time. Nodding to the 9-inch charge here, the Lemmy and DC combo are the most reliable thing and I'd probably use DoA on the DC to combine with the reroll. I think the maths puts this at a 93% chance of getting the 9" charge.

 

This is one of the reasons I'm gravitating towards a big DC (12-14)! Problem is you need to clear wrap first, which can be a pest.  But, yeah! That's the most solid approach.  

[Morticon]

Great overview. I personally don't think DC are too great this edition. They need something like what Berserkers have yet don't. Vanguard with twin chainswords do the same job but better and all the time due to always having 4 attacks rather than 3/4 charging. Not a mind they're cheaper and you realistically need to bring Lemmy for the DC too. People will say they can take Bolters and what not but meh 7/8 Bolters isn't going to do too much.

 

This was exactly my initial assessment too, Bro-Cap Lucius.  

Baring in mind, though, Forlorn Fury and the Lemmy reroll do give them something of an edge- at least in terms of having a tool, even if its not needed! 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

What got you to choose the +1 damage hammer rather than negate overwatch?

 

One of my favorite tactics this edition is deep striking 9" or more vertically for a much easier charge, since vertical distances aren't counted with keyword <FLY> units.

 

Something else I've found to be solid is reivers. They are extremely durable, and being able to move as they do with out worrying about vertical movement and their damage out put are both solid options.

[Morticon]

What got you to choose the +1 damage hammer rather than negate overwatch?

 

One of my favorite tactics this edition is deep striking 9" or more vertically for a much easier charge, since vertical distances aren't counted with keyword <FLY> units.

 

Something else I've found to be solid is reivers. They are extremely durable, and being able to move as they do with out worrying about vertical movement and their damage out put are both solid options.

Reivers and the vertical charge shenanigans are next on the play list, DBH! Will definitely be playtesting them.  

 

As far as the hammer, it's not something I would have considered- but the community here got me on to the idea.  The 2+ to hit with a captain that puts out 5 attacks on the charge is just so, so solid. And with the 5+++ he's tanky.   

 

 My primary thinking was that he would be getting rerolls from Lemmy - so, the only benefit of angels wing would be no OW.  (That being said, I think vs. Tau, the Angels Wing would have been MUCH better - so, it's something I will need to reconsider.  

[Are Verlo]

 

 

1.  Declare charges on multiple units - even ones far away - even if it opens you up to more overwatch.  WHY? 

 

This way you can not only consolidate in AND attack that unit (whereas before you could maybe trap them in, but not fight) but more importantly you could use Honour the Chapter on that unit.  

 

MORE IMPORTANTLY - you can attack one unit, ignore the other, and then lock yourself in to the unit you ignored using the tri-lock.  (Imma call it tri-lock from now).

 

 

 

I believe you can lock yourself in combat with units you did not declare a charge against. The rules say you can only move within 1" of units you declared a charge against , during the charge move and can only target units you declared charges against in the charge phase. 

 

There is nothing stopping you from moving a model to 1.000000000000001 " away from a unit that you did not declare a charge against and then pile in 3" towards the nearest model, which happens to be a unit you did not declare a charge against. You can not attack that unit, but you can consolidate closer to any unit as per rules of consolidate (you can move in any direction as long as you end the move closer to the closest enemy unit).

 

This means you can move a few of your models to 1.000001" of a non-charged unit, pile in to say 0.2", consolidate over the base if you can fly, and end on  the backside 0.1". 

[Kallas]

Great overview. I personally don't think DC are too great this edition. They need something like what Berserkers have yet don't. Vanguard with twin chainswords do the same job but better and all the time due to always having 4 attacks rather than 3/4 charging. Not a mind they're cheaper and you realistically need to bring Lemmy for the DC too. People will say they can take Bolters and what not but meh 7/8 Bolters isn't going to do too much.

DC and Berserkers are very different beasts.

 

Berserkers are the quintessential brute force. DC are a very powerful scalpel/distraction Carnifex.

 

DC hit hard enough to be incredibly dangerous (the output potential they have is huge) and have the mobility of Blood Angels to make them a threat at any point in the game (between Forlorn Fury, Upon Wings of Fire and Descent of Angels they can be basically anywhere).

 

Comparing them is essentially wasted energy. They're different units in different armies. They're the sledgehammer of the Blood Angels - Vanguard and Sanguinary Guard can do similar things, but they're still different.

 

Vanguard are cheaper and (in some ways) better at melee (and some ranged aspects, like twin Pistols) but have less sledgehammer potential (15 DC utilise Stratagems more effectively, for instance) and somewhat less resilience.

 

Sanguinary Guard are more expensive but better (model for model). Though DC are far better into chaff, due to their volume of attacks.

 

DC apply pressure early and require immediate and decisive attention: if they aren't dealt with they'll just keep chewing away at the enemy, and thanks to FF they'll be on them instantly.

 

*Shrug* I haven't put them on the field (I'm playing counts-as BA, so avoiding distinct BA-only units) but to me to they look like they have a place.

[Morticon]

100% correct! 

My explanation there definitely wasn't clear. 

 

The multi-declare is more to give options for movement (and if need be for Honour the Chapter). 

[Are Verlo]

Great overview. I personally don't think DC are too great this edition. They need something like what Berserkers have yet don't. Vanguard with twin chainswords do the same job but better and all the time due to always having 4 attacks rather than 3/4 charging. Not a mind they're cheaper and you realistically need to bring Lemmy for the DC too. People will say they can take Bolters and what not but meh 7/8 Bolters isn't going to do too much.

 

Bolter + chainsword fills another niche than 2x chainswords. I rate bolter + chainsword DC with jump pack, higher than VVs (with regards to clearing chaff and general anti- light infantry duty). In  a meta firendly to hordes and many bodies, 10/20 or even 15/30 bolter shots matter a lot.

 

The argument about DC needing support I can´t see the the logic? DC without Lemmy have the same change to charge a target as the VVS, they both have 3+ to hit. Could you spesify how you use twin chainsword vets ? I fail to see how the DC need support in a way the VVs don´t?

 

Edit: Not meant in a confrontational tone, I just can´t see why the VVs perform without support, while the DC needs lemmy :-)

Edited January 15, 2018 by Are Verlo

[Morticon]

Going to try this next against an absolutely devastating GK/IG combo. 

Mephiston

Libby Dread

Libby Dread

 

5x Intercessors - stalker

2x 5 Scouts - pwr weapon

2x 5 Scouts

1x 6 Tactical Marines - melta/combi-melta

 

12x DC - Hammer, 2 Swds

8x VanVets - Hammer, Swrd

6x Batman Reivers 

 

3x Tarantulas

 

2x Rapiers - Quadlaunchers

1x Rapier - Quadbolter

 

Lucius Pod

Drop Pod

 

 

 

___________________


Idea is that he will annoyingly need to kill the Tacs, and the pods (easy, sure- but they've become something to ignore as of late) if he wants to target the characters.  So, as the pods come down, the units (Mephy and Libby) can start to put the hassle on.  Depending on enemy set up, meph will either do the line-jump, or he will wait for a beta strike.  I''ll more than likely attempt a line jump, and then try consolidate into a tri-locked unit. 

Reivers can also be used in a way that I can deploy them out of LOS, but closer to the enemy, meaning again, the characters cant be targeted.

The huge DC will drop down and DOA hopefully trilocking the secondary charged unit.  If he has one rank only, I'm unsure as to how I'll engage.  

This army sacrifices backline flexibility and support (especially the hard hitting devs) for a set of gimmicks or theme.  Much more focused - so if thats good or bad, i'll have to see. 

[Kappel]

Thx for your very interesting observations Morticon.

 

I was wondering if the tri-lock you are writing about is hard to achieve? The point is, as I understand it, to surround a unit/character (without the keyword 'fly') in the consolidation phase, to stay locked in combat. Which will protect the unit agains shooting in opponents turn. 

 

But what is your experience concerning the actual movement to be able to surround a unit/model so that it cannot move? Isn't it hard to do this when you are obliged to move closer to the nearest enemy model?

[Panzer]

Do you plan on giving the Librarian Dreads and Mephiston the same powers to have some redundancy or do you actually plan on using Blood Lance and Blood Boil?

[Morticon]

sfP

its looking like this:

 

Meph - BB, Quick, Wings.

WL Dread (on foot) - Wings, BB

Pod Dread - Wings, Quick

 

Kappel - 

 

it's quite tricky and is not really about the pile in as much as the initial charge move!!! all about that! 

[Panzer]

Huh, so Blood Boil twice but no Shield for the Librarian Dreads or Unleash Rage to buff some other unit. Interesting.

[Brother-Captain Lucius]

 

Bolter + chainsword fills another niche that 2x chainswords. I rate bolter + chainsword DC with jump pack, higher than VVs (with regards to clearing chaff and general anti- light infantry duty). In  a meta firendly to hordes and many bodies, 10/20 or even 15/30 bolter shots matter a lot.

 

The argument about DC needing support I can´t see the the logic? DC without Lemmy have the same change to charge a target as the VVS, they both have 3+ to hit. Could you spesify how you use twin chainsword vets ? I fail to see how the DC need support in a way the VVs don´t?

 

Edit: Not meant in a confrontational tone, I just can´t see why the VVs perform without support, while the DC needs lemmy :-)

I suppose for me my meta isn't too blob heavy at the moment and what really knocks them down for me is the LD really and I typically will be using Forlorn on my Captain. I may try them again in another upcoming tournament at the end of January and see how I get on with them.

[Morticon]

Huh, so Blood Boil twice but no Shield for the Librarian Dreads or Unleash Rage to buff some other unit. Interesting.

 

Thinking is, that WL libby uses wings up the battlefield turn1. Mephy will use quickening, and maybe BB on his drop - unless there are juicier targets and he needs to hop to those - in which case he'll grab Wings, instead. 

 

The drop dread will then use Quick instead. 

 

I may, may consider (after you brought it up) giving Shield to the drop dread, in place of wings.  

 

BB on the WL dread was thinking of backline support for things dropping in there. 

 

 

[Remtek]

I have found quickening very unreliable, since i'm often re-rerolling wings even if i cast it low to avoid denies. Not sure what the math is, but i'd expect the combo to get shut down a lot vs GK's +1 to deny. It looks like an interesting combo though if they the pod can manage to screen. Looking forward to the batrep :)

[Charlo]

Going to try this next against an absolutely devastating GK/IG combo. 

 

Mephiston

Libby Dread

Libby Dread

 

5x Intercessors - stalker

2x 5 Scouts - pwr weapon

2x 5 Scouts

1x 6 Tactical Marines - melta/combi-melta

 

12x DC - Hammer, 2 Swds

8x VanVets - Hammer, Swrd

6x Batman Reivers 

 

3x Tarantulas

 

2x Rapiers - Quadlaunchers

1x Rapier - Quadbolter

 

Lucius Pod

Drop Pod

 

Interesting way to get all those juicy CP.

 

I like the triple Psyker HQ core, would like to try it too considering my Libby Dreads didn't get a single moment of real fun in 7th (vehicle rules suuuuuucked).

 

Think I'd try something simialr with a Double Battallion though, to avoid the 3 Elite/ FA/ HS "tax".

 

Perhaps a Raven to carry one of the Libby Dreads could be quite potent as a second wave an shore up the lack of firepower.

 

Quad Launchers are quite inspired; clears chaff and no LoS required means they are just fire and forget.

[Morticon]

For information's sake,

 

Rich is playing:

 

NDK Master

NDK Master

1 Guard Commander (CP miner build)

4x 5 man Strike Squads

 

4x 10man guardsmen (some plasma here and there)

3x Russes - plasma sponsons

1x Pask Russ - Plasma sponsons

 

 

He RIPPED up at the last tourney, and has gotten complacent - so asked me to take first turn for a challenge.

 

I'm going to attempt to make him regret that.

 

 

 

EDIT: OKay, so.....mephy rolls 4 for wings (2,2) - rerolls the 2 - its a 1 <_< Duffs quickening too....plans have now gone to pot <_< dumb.

[Panzer]

God dammit, Mephiston!

[Morticon]

DC just made it up with a 13" charge into 2 guard units - wiping out the one, tri-locking the  other and also getting two russes into combat through the pile in!! :D 

HUZZAH :D Worked out even better now, cause mephy cant be targetted at all.