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Will 'Oldtype' Marines be completely replaced by Primaris?


DogWelder

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“The Primaris Space Marines aboard the ships were all Ultramarines. At least, they were now – six weeks ago they had been the Unnumbered Sons of Guilliman. They were destined to reinforce the founding Chapter, and the pale grey chevrons partially obscuring their ultimas had been reverently removed. They had temporary squad markings, and had adopted a light blue for their company colour.

 

This would be their first battle as Ultramarines, led by Felix, an eleventh captain where there should only be ten. They had not even met the Chapter Master. Indeed, Marneus Calgar was ignorant of their assignment to his Chapter, and of their current mission.

 

Felix pondered how Calgar might feel about the primarch’s unilateral altering of the Codex Astartes. The captain could not help but feel that, in his drive for victory and efficiency, Guilliman had been careless with the feelings of his existing sons. Increasingly, Guilliman looked to the Primaris Space Marines as his first solution. He made no attempt to hide the fact that the days of the older Space Marines were numbered.”

 

Excerpt From: Guy Haley. “Dark Imperium.” iBooks. 

 

I believe Guilliman intends to replace the old marines utterly due to two reasons. One, he believes that there is something inherently flawed in the old-type marines for them to have betrayed the Emperor (and continue betraying the Emperor) in such large numbers. Something that is seemingly 'fixed' with the Primaris Marines.

 

Second, he might view it as the next step in combat evolution. A technological step forwards in creating a better, more perfect soldier. This fits his personality more in my opinion. He's always been more of a pragmatic statesman with a futuristic vision. As an Empire-builder, he sees war and combat as simply another part of sustaining or creating an Empire. A procedural task to be efficiently done (like managing the economy) instead of some sort of holy calling or noble profession. So its no wonder he doesn't have any qualms about creating a better marine. To him its like the production of a new pattern of bolter or power armor.
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So to be clear, this is a strictly 'in universe' question, not one about the product lines?

 

I think some elements in the new fluff would like to replace Marines with Primaris, but people like Cawl and Guilliman don't have the pull or the authority to do such a thing across all the Chapters of the Imperium, or even the majority of Chapters, I would imagine.  But as for the Ultramarines...yeah, probably.

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It's rather obvious that they will never completely replace the original space marines. The galaxy is a very large place and some chapters are rarely (if ever) in contact with the Imperium, and even some of the ones that are in touch with the wider galaxy will shun Guilliman's edicts and stick to the traditions that have kept them in good stead for ten millennia. GW are not going to completely invalidate existing armies on the tabletop, and they're not going to do it in the lore, either. But it's also very obvious that the Primaris are simply better than the original marines. Over time, the arithmetic of casualties, and a new emphasis placed on creating Primaris marines equipped with Cawl-pattern this and Cawl-pattern that is going to gradually skew the numbers hugely in favour of the Primaris. Why would the Imperium/Guilliman continue producing non-Primaris marines when the superior Primaris are readily available? It's not rocket science.

 

The reality is also that the lore and their sales plans are intertwined. With regards to something like the Primaris, it can't be a purely in-universe discussion; it is instead a matter of how they would justify, in the setting, the decisions they are making in the real world. What's almost certain to happen in the real world is that Primaris units will be gradually phased in over time, starting with generic squads before moving on to special characters and chapter-specific units in the years to come, and while the older Astartes still exist for the foreseeable future, less importance will be placed on them, both in terms of the lore GW produce, and their place on the shelves. It's not a plan for the short-term.

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Oh boy, here we go.

Prediction; people will have a sensible discussion for 2 pages and then arguing will start and the thread will get locked around the fifth page if it reaches that far.

 

Also to echo Marshal, if were going to talk about this, it cant be just an in-universe discussion, there are far too many factors in the real world that would pertain to this.

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In universe.

 

Old marines are gone. Some might still be around, but no new ones will ever be created.

 

So when an old type dies in battle or of old age, it will be a Primaris that replaces him.

 

Chapters that don't like this will likely be excommunicated.

 

Bobby G controlls the high lords. He is the Imperium now.

 

And Cawl. Well he did whatever he wants and changes whatever he wants. He is the literal deus ex machina.

 

Well second to space elf hand wavey death magic.

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In universe, the current fluff hints that this is the eventual plan. Keep in mind, however, that the absurdism of Grimdark™ pretty much demands that everything good that happens in the Imperium is a case of one step forward, two back. As things are now, Primaris are a miracle of engineering that cannot be matched. This assumes however that none of the following happen:

 

Primaris are embiggened in part by Cawl having worked out the special warp juice that went into the Primarchs, making them tied more closely to the warp.

 

Primaris initially show resistance to the flaws of their respective chapters, but it turns out to lead to even worse flaws later in life.

 

Primaris are revealed to have utilized some of the genehancement processes that made the Thunder Warriors larger and stronger, and their lifespan is thus markedly shorter than traditional Astartes.

 

Primaris end up having the same rate of betrayal as traditional Astartes, but are that much harder to take down.

 

Primaris training ends up giving more loyalty to other Primaris than to their nominal chapters, leading to a legion sized army of Primaris waging war against their outdated forebears.

 

A Primaris rises to a preeminent rank in a respected Astartes First Founding Chapter, and his favoring of Primaris troops at the expense of traditional Astartes creates large conflicts with other chapters, leading to a second inter-legionary conflict.

 

Any number of other things that contradict the notion of Primaris superiority.

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To Guilliman, it's a simple matter of what works best.

In-universe the Primaris are superior and have made quick work of Veteran Chaos Astartes boosted by the Warp, and have a clear technological edge over the prior generation.

 

Guilliman doesn't have any real attachment to the Marines of the 41St millennium. In fact he sees Felix - a Primaris marine who lived during the Heresy before his transformation into an Astartes - as potentially his closest friends.

 

I believe Primaris will gain more popularity on the tabletop as new models are released and the range becomes more complete.

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My prediction is that ole rowboat and crawly will keep favouring them to the point the old marines die off and start feeling used and ignored and slighted....then rowboat executes order 66, and all the primaris turn on the leftover marines and take over the empire cuz hes always thought he could do better than daddy E.

The survivors find shelter along with leftover remnants of guard at sister convents who have always suspected that xenos raised dead abomination and start a valiant rebellion against the false emprah bob.

Bobby and abby bro fist at their just as planned shenanigans.

 

...in all seriousness though, primaris are the new favourite child. Normarines will die out or be bred out to keep pace.

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Then there is those Chapter's who still don't trust or want the Primaris, like Space Wolves who do not to tolerate some outsider trying to force their crap on them, I mean true the space wolves have accepted the primaris reluctantly into the chapter but they don't exactly trust them or value them as true son's of LemanRuss.

With that said I doubt personally they will acknowledge the Wolfspear chapter, not after vowing not to have any more founding's from their gene-seed after the incident that happened in regards first and only chapter to be founded from the. ( forget the name of the chapter)

 

This said did the Flesh Tearers consent to the Primaris marines into their ranks in the end, despite denouncing them as an affront to their heritage, during the Devastation of Ball?

 

 

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Then there is those Chapter's who point blank refuse to have the Primaris, like Space Wolves who feel the same about the wolf spirit not to mention some outside trying to force their crap on them hence the Wolfspear Chapter, bet that was a slap to the face of the Space Wolves who swore never to have any more founding after the incident with the last one (first and only one at that) heh.

 

You've misconstrued what Dark Imperium says.

 

The Space Wolves have not rejected Primaris Space Marines, at all*. Bjarni is assigned to the Wolfspear chapter, along with the remainder of the Unnumbered Sons of Leman Russ left at the conclusion of the Indomitus Crusade, but later in the chapter:

 

'There are many Primaris Space Marines wearing the livery of the Vlka Fenryka, brother,' said Felix. 'You will be welcomed by them, even if Russ' warrior-sons of the older breed remain aloof.'

 

* As if they were ever going to, given that Space Wolves are popular and Games Workshop wants as many Space Marine players as possible to buy Primaris models . . .

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Sorry Ascanius I just edited to find your comment, I edited to make what I was trying to say more clearer as I can suck at time in trying to explain myself heh! but aye I may well have taken hold of the wrong end of the stick with it.

Your also right about games workshop, they have shown they are up for bending fluff or rewriting stuff so they can sell more, but then again they are a Business first Hobby second.

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Personally, I can't see them entirely replacing the standard Marines. After all, as the Lamenters show, what looks like a great fix initially, ends up with you siding on the wrong side of the Badab War, eaten by Tyranids, and the fix stopping working. The Primaris are going to be awesome for a while, then Chaos is going to strike back, and show why the Emperor didn't make them like that in the first place, and we'll see a whole bunch either turn to Chaos, or at least strike out as independent, claiming their own fiefdoms on the far side of the Rift.

 

This is 40k, and as the old saying goes, "if you think this ends well, you haven't been paying attention."

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Business-wise, that's probably the end-game, and because of that, while they might be flawed, it may never be as big as maybe they could/should be (depending on who you ask), story-wise.

 

Of GW could shock us completely, and actually write something similar to what Kinstryfe said.

 

Game-wise, even with the plasma benefit to Hellblasters from the DA rules, I think that there's definitely improvement that could be made to the Primaris to ensure that players do in fact take them, rather than still being a fair-to-middling option most times that most people seem to find them, before Primaris will be the only thing players want to field.

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Does it really matter? They all end up Chaos Space Marines the first time the vaguest corrupting influence enters the same solar system anyway. Seriously, you can't spill red paint near an Astartes without everything going all 'blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne!'

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Does it really matter? They all end up Chaos Space Marines the first time the vaguest corrupting influence enters the same solar system anyway. Seriously, you can't spill red paint near an Astartes without everything going all 'blood for the blood god, skulls for the skull throne!'

Red makes things go faster. Including falling to Chaos.

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In the same book, Roboute has en internal monologue towards the end, where he thinks about the actions of the Emperor.

"Knowing what opposed mankind made him see the utility of lies. Could Guilliman honestly say he loved all the men who called himself his sons? He barely knew them, especially now – Cawl’s blasphemous hordes in particular. They, too, were a means to an end."

 

And he seems rather conflicted towards the new Primaris marines many times. He doesn't trust Cawl at all, and there is a lot of groundwork being laid down for the Primaris to have some deep flaw that will jump out and mess everything up for Roboute later on.

 

IRL, I think this is simply in preparation for the redesign of the CSM range. I doubt we will see any new normarines for CSM, they will likely need to make due with the super old kits we currently have, and instead get new Primaris dudes, either deserters or the result of Biles retroengineering.

 

When it comes to the CSM redesign, many want to bring up the DV Chosen. But I have to point out that those models are both oop and most have illegal weapon loadouts on the models. They all came with the "bolter, bp+ccw" loadout that was the trademark CSM thing between 4ed and 7ed, but is now not a valid weapon loadout, so you can't even field them anymore.

 

Those models seem to be more of a side-track than a new path.

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No, they are not replacing normal Space Marines.

 

GW said in their Primaris FAQ that they are reinforcements for Space Marines *not* replacements.

 

The opinion of one character in the holy Primaris tome that is Dark Inperium does not change that ;)

 

All 8th edition marine codices still have scout entries and examples of scouts in current fluff so regular Marines are still being produced.

 

The Blood Angels codex specifically states that normal Marines are being made as well as new Primaris Marines for the Blood Angels and their successor chapters, at the same time.

 

Added to that it wouldn't make sense for the imperium to not produce regular Space Marines, because the Primaris cannot use the vast amounts of highly effective relic wargear that the Space Marine chapters possess, due to their size issues. They are not just suddenly going to stop using all that stuff. It would be like not making imperial guard anymore because scions are a bit more elite, or replacing Primaris with Custodes.

 

There will be other reasons GW has yet to reveal as to why they won't replace normal marines I'm sure.

 

Modelwise, I'm sure Primaris will be the focus for Space marine models for the next few years, as they are the new thing in the Space marine world. But that doesn't stop GW still selling the rest of the vast Space Marine range for evermore.

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In what way does any force beyond the Chapter itself have the capacity to dictate how they employ their gene-seed?  'Regulating' Chapter-wide mutations is one thing, but Excommunication for not downloading the latest update for Marine.exe seems far fetched, especially considering that these are, in fact, the end times.  Unless all this moving the plot forward results in the Chaos forces retreating back to the Eye and everything resuming at the point we just left, there won't be enough time or in fact anyone around to bring every Chapter in the Imperium into line with the latest standards and practices for post-human augmentation.

 

As for Guilliman, what's he gonna do?  Things are as bad and urgent as they've ever been for the Imperium, so is he gonna stop and punish Chapters that don't fall into line with his vision, or take allies where he can find them?  It'd be like getting into that pissing contest with Dorn over preferred reading material while Horus was ringing Terra's doorbell.

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Cawl: "Bobby G, Chapter X has returned the new Marines we sent them.  In bits."

Bobby G: "That's going against my new Codex Astartes.  Use the best to win!"

Cawl: "What ya gonna do Bobby?"

Bobby G: "High Lords, which one of you that I haven't killed yet is responsible for the Inquisition?"

Inquisitor Lord High Lord: " Uh, me.  Spiritual Liege."

Bobby G: "Excommunicate that Chapter.  They're Traitors."

 

Bobby has the power of the Emperor.  He has unlimited amounts of new Marines, which are 'better' than old marines.  Between him and Cawl, they can simply stop the Ad Mech allowing the creation of old Marines.  And like Chapters that refuse to tithe 10% of their Geneseed to Mars (who get Excommunicated, unless you're the Space Wolves, who seem able to kill Inquisitors and Grey Knights at will and suffer no consequences), refusing the best Soldiers and Equipment (because old Marines are also incapable of using Cawls new Bolters and Plasmaguns) and sticking a finger up to Bobby and Cawl, won't go down well.

 

Bobby doesn't *need* the support of any existing old Marine Chapter.

 

Not when he has enough New Marines to replace them all.

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