Will 'Oldtype' Marines be completely replaced by Primaris?

[Kinstryfe]

Scout entries are for 'current' scouts.  They will die out / be promoted to Marines and die out in time.

 

There will be no way, in Universe, that the Imperium will sanction the creation of old type marines, when the new Marines are better in every way.

Don't forget though that the Astartes are not actually answerable to the leaders of the Imperium as a whole. They have levels of autonomy much greater than other imperial institutions, with I believe only the Inquisition really able to censure them. If a Chapter Master decides that his chapter will continue to use the traditional process for new recruits, there's virtually nothing the Imperium could do except declare them heretical and sick the Inquisition or massed Militarum on them. And given the difficulty they're having getting enough soldiers to cover all of their myriad conflicts, I can't imagine "won't embiggen new recruits" being sufficient to warrant that kind of response. Especially because there's bound to be Inquisitors who would side with them for rejecting what could be spun as a tech heresy or affront to The Emperor.

[Gentlemanloser]

Except as it's coming from the Emperor, sorry Bobby G, there can't be any justification for Heresy.

[Robbienw]

At no point has Guilliman said any chapter must switch over to just making Primaris marines exclusively.  He has just doled out some Primaris Marines to some understrength chapters from his indomitus crusade forces, and distributed out the equipment to make them to the imperium at large.  He has also made a few tweaks to the codex, and made Dante commander of imperial forces north of the great rift.  These are the extent of his dictates to the Space Marine chapters.

[Kinstryfe]

Unless, of course, there were prior precedent for the Primarch acting as head of the Imperium's armed forces not having acted in a manner consistent with the best interests of the Imperium. Or if any Astartes geneticists working on improvements to the Astartes process that involved strange and unusual enhancements went on to betray the Imperium.

 

Not saying it's what's happening, just that you could make a heck of an argument against accepting the primaris enhancements into your ranks if you were a shrewd Chapter Master.

[Gentlemanloser]

And rebel. ;)

 

Hence the Excommunicartus. ;)

[Captain Idaho]

In universe it'd be nice to have a new vs situation. Be very tragic and fit the background perfectly.

[Charlo]

The plan will be for them to be the replacement... UNTIL they start to fall to chaos/ go renegade etc

 

Then things will be reevaluated and create some tasty tension.

[Trevak Dal]

The flaw that induces betrayal is humanity. You take kids from :cuss hole situations, put them up against other kids in something that's like the Hunger Games but worse, and the winners from that are made into mind controlled killing machines and lambasted with "honor" and "glory" and all that noise.

 

When the conditioning inevitably breaks down and they stop taking orders then they will betray the system that made them, and probably harbor a great hatred for lesser humans.

 

Now if this is a gaming question, eh maybe? Might be a way to get all the guys who have a crap ton of marines to buy more marines, though at present their rules are kinda meh. Can't ride in the vehicles you got (even landraiders or storm Ravens) being 30k style tactical Marines with +1 wound and slightly better than standard Bolters.

[Ishagu]

If some do fall to Chaos, why would it create any additional tension?

Marines have turned before, and this doesn't erase the fact the Primaris are superior Astartes.

[Charlo]

If some do fall to Chaos, why would it create any additional tension?

Marines have turned before, and this doesn't erase the fact the Primaris are superior Astartes.

 

Because they are supposed to be the next generation. The replacement for the flawed old Astartes prone to Heresy. If the Imperium is one thing, it's arrogant and I feel like Cawl and Guilliman will see their new toys as incorruptible.

 

When some eventually do turn,  will hit the fan, but in a good way and make for a great story.

 

Especially if it's something like a decently sized force of Primaris sick of not being embraced or trusted by their peers, fed up with maybe being given only mundane missions with no room for glory or the like. Kinda like the IW in 30k.

[Kinstryfe]

Let's say that you have a perfect storm for a public relations nightmare such as, for example...

 

The Imperial Fists, a first founding chapter and a chapter held in the utmost esteem as loyal defenders of Terra, have dutifully utilized the enhancements which Lord Guilliman has bestowed upon them. Having accepted and seen the potential of their first primaris brothers, they quickly turned to Cawl's new processes for most new recruits. After some time, nearly half of the Imperial Fists chapter is now made up of Primaris Astartes, when some peculiarities start to crop up. The Fists have always espoused clarity and purity of purpose thru pain, utilizing their pain gloves as a form of mediation and strengthening of their wills. Some of the Primaris Astartes have taken to seeking out more intense painful experiences, their enhanced physique able to withstand the pain glove with barely a trickle of annoyance. They take, slowly at first but soon en masse, to extreme actions, practicing scarification, stripping long strips of skin from their bodies, breaking their enhanced bones to feel constant pain, and scores of other creative and repulsive acts. Before the chapter command can act on what is going on among half of their ranks, the Primaris of the VIIth start to become uncontrollable in the throes of battle, fighting with a savagery not often seen outside of the IXth. Soon a full half of the chapter has descended into madness, refusing any orders and scattering to seek out more intense methods of experiencing cleansing pain. While this loss of control is rumored to curse certain other Astartes chapters, word of the tragedy of the Primaris Fists spreads a wave a disbelief and distrust among many other chapters. If the stalwart defenders of the walls of Terra could succumb to such a curse, unknown before then in the chapter, what curse lay locked away in the Primaris members of other chapters?

 

A respected chapter losing a large number of brothers to a flaw in the Primaris process could be all it takes to turn lingering suspicion and doubt into full fledged hostilities and a second heresy of sorts.

[Captain Idaho]

 

If some do fall to Chaos, why would it create any additional tension?

Marines have turned before, and this doesn't erase the fact the Primaris are superior Astartes.

 

 

Because they are supposed to be the next generation. The replacement for the flawed old Astartes prone to Heresy. If the Imperium is one thing, it's arrogant and I feel like Cawl and Guilliman will see their new toys as incorruptible.

Guilliman mentioned them NOT being incorruptible in Dark Imperium. The seed of suspicion.

[Ishagu]

I think they are probably less prone to corruption but they were never mentioned as being utterly pure. Even Captain Felix is in ways tempted by Chaos during a battle, needing his Librarian to explain the risk of temptation and hubris.

 

Kinstryfe - that is a really cool idea and thought behind what could go wrong. If it's written well it can be done.

[Ascanius]

Ishagu is certainly correct that Dark Imperium touches on the way that Primaris Space Marines can be naive (compared to older-type Astartes) about the ways in which Chaos can affect them.

[totgeboren]

Yeah, in Dark Imperium, Captain Felix would more or less have fallen first to Khorne and then to Nurgle if it wasn't for being shielded by that Librarian at the last minute. And he didn't even seem to realise what was going on, even afterwards.

[Magos Takatus]

 

If some do fall to Chaos, why would it create any additional tension?

Marines have turned before, and this doesn't erase the fact the Primaris are superior Astartes.

 

Because they are supposed to be the next generation. The replacement for the flawed old Astartes prone to Heresy. If the Imperium is one thing, it's arrogant and I feel like Cawl and Guilliman will see their new toys as incorruptible.

 

That doesn't sound like Guilliman to me. I get the impression that he would always have a backup plan in case the Primaris rollout goes awry. 

[Triszin]

 

Then there is those Chapter's who point blank refuse to have the Primaris, like Space Wolves who feel the same about the wolf spirit not to mention some outside trying to force their crap on them hence the Wolfspear Chapter, bet that was a slap to the face of the Space Wolves who swore never to have any more founding after the incident with the last one (first and only one at that) heh.

 

You've misconstrued what Dark Imperium says.

 

The Space Wolves have not rejected Primaris Space Marines, at all*. Bjarni is assigned to the Wolfspear chapter, along with the remainder of the Unnumbered Sons of Leman Russ left at the conclusion of the Indomitus Crusade, but later in the chapter:

 

'There are many Primaris Space Marines wearing the livery of the Vlka Fenryka, brother,' said Felix. 'You will be welcomed by them, even if Russ' warrior-sons of the older breed remain aloof.'

 

* As if they were ever going to, given that Space Wolves are popular and Games Workshop wants as many Space Marine players as possible to buy Primaris models . . .

 

that is a rather intruiging excerpt

 

"said Felix. 'You will be welcomed by them, even if Russ' warrior-sons of the older breed remain aloof.'"

 

we know from gathering storm that the firehowlers and Iron wolves great companies refused to talk of Grimnar and the other companies, what if they've been MIA with russ while all the changes were going on?

[Xenith]

A Primaris rises to a preeminent rank in a respected Astartes First Founding Chapter, and his favoring of Primaris troops at the expense of traditional Astartes creates large conflicts with other chapters, leading to a second inter-legionary conflict.

 

The Felix Heresy? I can see old marines being increasingly disgruntled at being replaced, and larger number going rogue as they no longer see the imperium as a place they are welcome...

[Triszin]

 

A Primaris rises to a preeminent rank in a respected Astartes First Founding Chapter, and his favoring of Primaris troops at the expense of traditional Astartes creates large conflicts with other chapters, leading to a second inter-legionary conflict.

 

The Felix Heresy? I can see old marines being increasingly disgruntled at being replaced, and larger number going rogue as they no longer see the imperium as a place they are welcome...

 

I can foresee the ROCK or the FANG becoming a beacon for the old marines and using that as a staging point/resupply station

[Blindhamster]

i think you all just want the new guys to be rejected.

 

it'll be fine, they'll coexist for a long time, we know more regular BA are being made from our codex (we have nearly 500 neophytes (in addition to actual scouts) now vs the 80 or so we used to have).

 

Felix was portrayed as being very even handed and a thinker, i doubt he'll be going traitor, especially now he's had the chance to see how easy it is to slip, he'll be more mindful.

 

I also don't see the majority of existing marines going traitor, because they're loyalists, plain and simple, and like it or not, Guilliman is the lord regent. Also, north of the rift is technically under command of Dante now, he's a regular astartes, not a primaris.

 

End of the BA novel said it was a time of change and that eventually it'd all be primaris, but 40 or so years (in setting) later we see from the codex that that wasn't the case, with more scouts than ever.

[Sete]

So we will see scouts in Primaris armies. That's what I gather from it :D

 

It's just a waste of resources to do inferior marines when the new ones have a higher rate acceptance, and lesser inclination for mutations. And that's heresy. Not to mention dumb.

[Ishagu]

If you're a seasoned military commander, would you shun a superior weapon because of some misguided sentiments?

Wouldn't that make you a poor military strategist and leader?

[Boldthreat]

Agreed completely. What no one is mentioning is that the 1000 man limit of the codex is still in place. (Except for the Ultramarines and their 11th company). Fluff wise that alone is why you would use the new stuff over the old. Do you want 1000 warriors with old antiquated geneseed that is missing organs and or causing problems... or the brand new stuff that has all the originals plus some? Who do you want filling your billets? As the older Marines are killed and replaced, you would absolutely only replace them with with the newer better model. That's not a disservice to old Marines and what they did for 10,000 years... that's just reality. Because in reality, they are all Space Marines.

 

Let's take the Imperial Fists for example. At the start of the Indomitus Crusade, they were already pretty battered with the fall of Cadia and the Invasion of the Phalanx. They were going to have to be influxed with Primaris from the outset. Then they go on and help spear head the Indomitus Crusade and earn much praise from Guilliman in doing so. I would be flat out shocked that after 100 plus years of crusading in this manner, that they would not be approaching complete conversion at the end. Why would they replace their losses with a run down, over used diluted resource, that's missing two organs when they have direct access to the newer stuff that genetically is closer to their primogenitor than the other, has the missing organs and 3 more? They wouldn't. The Indomitus Crusade was the passing of the torch. There are already 100 Percent Primaris Chapters. With the state of the Imperium and the nature of the great rift... i think it would be wishful thinking that all of our favorite Chapters are still more regular Astartes than Primaris.

If you're a seasoned military commander, would you shun a superior weapon because of some misguided sentiments?

Wouldn't that make you a poor military strategist and leader?

 

No you wouldn't. Especially if that superior weapon was gifted to you by The only known Living Primarch who has been worshiped and revered for 10,000 years and just woke up to help. And even more so that this new weapon is twice as effective as the original product.

 

If I were a space marine commander, what would be more important to me... the feelings of all of us old timers and the thought of being replaced by better technology; or the future of my Chapter and it's ability to serve the Imperium of Man and my Emperor? especially on the backdrop of the Great Rift? I would need all 1000 of my available billets filled with the absolute best I could provide.

 

That's Primaris Space Marines. The old veterans are still useful and I would absolutely keep using them. But they will inevitably be killed in some horrendous war zone and they will be replaced with Primaris Marines.

[m0nolith]

If you're a seasoned military commander, would you shun a superior weapon because of some misguided sentiments?

Wouldn't that make you a poor military strategist and leader?

We can not view this decision as individuals in the real world, but as individuals in the 40k universe.

 

If I was living in the 40k universe I would fall victim to all cognitive gymnastics that destroy reason and rationality, all of which is necessary to survive in this horrible world.

This is 40k, fear, despotism and superstition are the pillars of this universe. 

 

Never forget;

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods."

[Robbienw]

So we will see scouts in Primaris armies. That's what I gather from it :D

No, it specifically says in the codex they are making new Scouts and Primaris Marines concurrently. It also says about how there are loads of scouts now in the Scout squad entry. There is no such thing as Primaris scouts.

 

A seasoned military commander would indeed not fail to use superior weapons. This is one of the reasons why you would still use normal Marines; so you can keep using all their highly advanced wargear such as terminator armour, land speeders, land raiders, etc.

 

We can speculate on reasons why it doesn't make sense, pointlessly applying real world logic to 40k, but it's irrelevant as the fact is normal Marines are still being made alongside primaris ones. The reasons, whatever they are, don't need to be know for this to be a fact :D