Will 'Oldtype' Marines be completely replaced by Primaris?

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

If you're a seasoned military commander, would you shun a superior weapon because of some misguided sentiments?

Wouldn't that make you a poor military strategist and leader?

No you wouldn't. Especially if that superior weapon was gifted to you by The only known Living Primarch who has been worshiped and revered for 10,000 years and just woke up to help. And even more so that this new weapon is twice as effective as the original product.

 

If I were a space marine commander, what would be more important to me... the feelings of all of us old timers and the thought of being replaced by better technology; or the future of my Chapter and it's ability to serve the Imperium of Man and my Emperor? especially on the backdrop of the Great Rift? I would need all 1000 of my available billets filled with the absolute best I could provide.

 

That's Primaris Space Marines. The old veterans are still useful and I would absolutely keep using them. But they will inevitably be killed in some horrendous war zone and they will be replaced with Primaris Marines.

 

 

Yep, and every experience we've had in the real world of someone claiming to be a reincarnated saint or whatever has resulted in, at best, religious schism. This is in the 40k universe, where everything is heresy, yes, especially even that, and where innovation and invention are tech-heresy. Yes, I'm being a bit flippant, but we're dealing with a universe where the past is glorified, where older=better, especially when it comes to technology. Now we've got a group coming along saying "don't worry, these brand new inventions and developments will save everybody! Throw out your holy relics from the Great Crusade, they are needed no longer! Instead, I've got brand-new guns of my own invention for you to use instead! Don't worry though, this guy claiming to be a Primarch says it's ok!"

 

Sure, Guilliman claims to be supported by the Emperor, and he's got the Emperors sword, and the backing of the High Lords. Well, Goge Vandire had the inherent backing of the Emperor, and was supported by the entire might of the Ecclesiarchy itself, and look how that turned out. You could forgive any Chapters for being untrusting of these developments, they haven't exactly worked out well in the past for the Imperium.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Fluff - I doubt it if for no other reason than primaris probably couldn't man a lot of the vehicles. Plus there are probably chapters out there with no ideal that Guilliman is even back.

 

Real world - If they were super popular and the regular marine sales fell off I could see it. It may even be the plan but I think they'll support the older kits as long as they keep selling well. I just don't think that they had a lot of design space left with existing marine range, and wanted to create some new kits for everyone.  

[Demus Ragnok]

Definitely maybe.

[Firepower]

To echo what others have said, real world reasoning does not apply to 40k reasoning.  Some Marine commanders may be rather pragmatic, but for every moment of rational insight, there are demonstrations of dogmatic, unquestioned behaviors, draconian stubbornness, and self destructive superstition.  The Iron Cage was not a moment of insightful, rational thought, and that was a campaign lead by one of the most pragmatic Primarchs in the Imperium. 

 

I'm still rather annoyed that Templars were okay with the idea, as a zealous, puritanical lot.  That was one of those instances that smacked of "We want everyone in this book to use our models."  I don't want to dig into the business decisions and real world argument of "Marines 1.0 are not gonna be made ever again" because it's all speculative and largely irrelevant, but things like the above demonstrate how the fluff will sometimes be bent over backwards to accommodate the new toys.  It was something GW did even before Primaris, with each new line of models that came out.

 

GW may decide that everyone ceases making Marines Classic because of business reasons, but that doesn't mean it makes sense within the universe they've created.  While I pointed to the Templars as an example, there are Chapters way, way crazier and dogmatic than they are.  Emperor's Regent or not, Guilliman can't extend his order on to every Chapter in the Imperium.  There are too many, the galaxy is too disorganized with the new upheaval going on, and if he really is the reasonable, pragmatic soul he's made out to be, he won't turn away allies (much less have them destroyed) simply because they don't agree with him on the subject.

[Sete]

There are no Primaris scouts. Yet. ;)

Let's see where this will lead up to...

[m0nolith]

There are no Primaris scouts. Yet.

Let's see where this will lead up to...

Not from a game play perspective, but from a lore perspective, Reivers. 

[Jarl Caldersson]

No, they are not replacing normal Space Marines.

GW said in their Primaris FAQ that they are reinforcements for Space Marines *not* replacements.

The opinion of one character in the holy Primaris tome that is Dark Inperium does not change that ;)

 

I find this kinda odd since Guilliman has replaced and made entire chapters out of Primaris alone. This shows they are more than a simple reinforcements.

[Kinstryfe]

I think the most likely explanation for why both types of Astartes would still be manufactured in-universe probably boils down to logistics. We simply don't know how much primaris geneseed and equipment chapters were given, and how fast this can be replaced. If they follow the same process as old Astartes, with one set of glands removed at maturity and one removed at death, it would probably take awhile before they could completely cut out the old style. There's also equipment. They need entirely new transports, armour, and weapons. If you're a chapter without any particular relationship to a forge world, you may be relying on what you can build yourself plus the occasional care package from Mars, and you'll be creating Primaris at whatever rate the slowest of the pieces moves at. Making 500 Primaris when you only have vehicles and transports to move 100 may not be worth it, when they still have enough transports to move 1100 old Astartes around the battlefield.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

 

No, they are not replacing normal Space Marines.

GW said in their Primaris FAQ that they are reinforcements for Space Marines *not* replacements.

The opinion of one character in the holy Primaris tome that is Dark Inperium does not change that

I find this kinda odd since Guilliman has replaced and made entire chapters out of Primaris alone. This shows they are more than a simple reinforcements.

 

 

Can't reinforce a non-existent chapter.

[Jarl Caldersson]

 

 

No, they are not replacing normal Space Marines.

GW said in their Primaris FAQ that they are reinforcements for Space Marines *not* replacements.

The opinion of one character in the holy Primaris tome that is Dark Inperium does not change that ;)

 

I find this kinda odd since Guilliman has replaced and made entire chapters out of Primaris alone. This shows they are more than a simple reinforcements.

 

Can't reinforce a non-existent chapter.

If there is 50 survivors of a chapter and you "reinforce" them with 950 primaris is that really reinforcement?

[Robbienw]

 

No, they are not replacing normal Space Marines.

GW said in their Primaris FAQ that they are reinforcements for Space Marines *not* replacements.

The opinion of one character in the holy Primaris tome that is Dark Inperium does not change that ;)

 

I find this kinda odd since Guilliman has replaced and made entire chapters out of Primaris alone. This shows they are more than a simple reinforcements.

No these make sense. The existing Space Marine chapters suffered a lot of casualties during and after the opening of the Great Rift, and some whole chapters were wiped out completely.

 

Guilliman put Primaris chapters in their place to hold down the sectors where whole chapters had been lost, and also to guard new hotspots created by the great rift.

 

There were simply no excess normal Space Marines to take up these tasks, he only had new Marines available for it.

 

They are still reinforcements to the Adeptus Astartes as a whole.

[Lucerne]

I imagine more than one new Renegade chapter and Space Marine Red Wedding happened over the Primaris.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

There are no Primaris scouts. Yet.

Let's see where this will lead up to...

Not from a game play perspective, but from a lore perspective, Reivers.

Reivers aren't described as scouts in lore.

 

They're terror assault troops. They share some similarities in roles, but the core role of scouts (recon) is not a role of reivers.

[m0nolith]

 

 

There are no Primaris scouts. Yet. ;)

Let's see where this will lead up to...

Not from a game play perspective, but from a lore perspective, Reivers.

Reivers aren't described as scouts in lore.

They're terror assault troops. They share some similarities in roles, but the core role of scouts (recon) is not a role of reivers.

They’re infiltration specialists.

They’re not a carbon copy of scouts, but they’re close enough that they can be utilized to fill the same role as scouts from a narrative perspective.

[Claws and Effect]

 

No, they are not replacing normal Space Marines.

GW said in their Primaris FAQ that they are reinforcements for Space Marines *not* replacements.

The opinion of one character in the holy Primaris tome that is Dark Inperium does not change that ;)

 

I find this kinda odd since Guilliman has replaced and made entire chapters out of Primaris alone. This shows they are more than a simple reinforcements.

He's reinforced a bunch of understrength chapters, and replaced a bunch of chapters that got wiped out/fell to Chaos. I can fully envision not wanting to give a replacement chapter the same name as one that was corrupted. Why tempt fate?

 

There is also the question of whether Primaris take longer to create than regular Astartes.

 

As mentioned, logistics comes into it as well. An existing chapter isn't likely to have a lot of Primaris sized armor on hand that isn't already being used. But they probably have plenty of MkII-MkVII suits in their armory. It would make no sense to just let all that stuff collect dust when they could easily create new Astartes to utilize it.

 

Besides, no chapter would like being told "You know all that ancient wargear that represents the history of your chapter? Scrap it, we're giving you new stuff." Especially the First Founding chapters who still have gear that was in use when their Primarchs were still around. Do you really think the Fists would stop using a suit of Terminator armor that once shared a battlefield with their Primarch? Or that the Salamanders would stop using equipment that Vulkan personally made? Hell, recovering stuff he made is the single most important non-warfare goal of the entire chapter. And Shrike isn't going to set aside Corax's own claws in favor of some new weapon.

 

Existing chapters will keep recruiting regular Astartes just so they can continue honoring equipment that has incredible significance to their history. Even if they do so in smaller numbers than before.

[Marshal Rohr]

@OP - Yes they will be replaced, it will he explained poorly and the line will discourage conversion with lack of weapon options. It will continue to do silly things, like give commanders precision weapons and the lore will entirely move away from things like Vraks and Badab and become a continuous cycle of teen novel super hero fights centered around the Primarchs.

[Blindhamster]

@OP - Yes they will be replaced, it will he explained poorly and the line will discourage conversion with lack of weapon options. It will continue to do silly things, like give commanders precision weapons and the lore will entirely move away from things like Vraks and Badab and become a continuous cycle of teen novel super hero fights centered around the Primarchs.

yawn

[Marshal Rohr]

We will see, won’t we ;)

[Sete]

I will agree with Rohr here.

It's already happening.

Check Gathering Storm.

Where is Abbadon? Who cares we got Guilliman Vs Magnus, and Guilliman Vs Mortarion.

I wonder what the next campaign will be...

Russ Vs Angron?

Guilliman Vs Fulgrim?

Abbadon? What a scrub.

Just like Empire in AoS does not have any releases since Stormcast, Marines in 40k won't have any new release except Primaris.

[Blindhamster]

honestly, its more the tone.

 

 

Yes they will be replaced, it will he explained poorly and the line will discourage conversion with lack of weapon options. It will continue to do silly things, like give commanders precision weapons and the lore will entirely move away from things like Vraks and Badab and become a continuous cycle of teen novel super hero fights centered around the Primarchs.

 

but to be a bit more productive in my response...

• You're probably right that they'll be replaced eventually, but I think that could be 5-10 years in terms of timescales.
• You're also probably right that they'll have fewer weapon options, this actually helps when designing balanced armies, and allows them to avoid quite so many knock off companies appearing. Rather than it being because they want to discourage conversion... for what it's worth, I've seen a lot of primaris conversions, so i suppose it comes down to: do you like converting? if you do, knock yourself out. I do, so i've converted a number of my primaris too.
• captains having stalker pattern bolt weapons is something forgeworld did first (raptor captain), it's also not unheard of in other media (titus can use one in the space marine game, there is a HQ character type in 30k that can have one, the best person for a stalker pattern in the RPGs was usually the tactical, who was also usually the leader etc. So... "silly" is subjective when talking about our futuristic space soldiers that like to bring swords to gun fights.
• seeing as the lore for vraks and badab was a FW thing more than a GW thing anyway... (i.e. they were mentioned in passing till FW picked them up) I'd expect FW to do more such things (like the next book they have coming) as and when they fancy it and arent working on the horus heresy.
• simply put, primarchs sell, most horus heresy books are about primarchs to some extent too and the entire setting arguably is about the heroes anyway. Even in 40k, the characters that usually get the most lore are the big heroes (chapter masters, Abaddon etc) so... honestly I don't see it as as much of a change as you clearly do - i absolutely loved the Devastation of Baal novel, which was a novel set in the new timeline in part and certainly a novel that showcases the way things are going. From a campaign focus the narrative has arguably been on the CHAOS primarchs, which is mostly because a large group of Chaos players have wanted them for a long time.

 

So.. yeah. Don't disagree that eventually we'll see primaris replace regular marines - and I'm fine with that so long as they get fleshed out more (both rule wise and lore wise, dark imperium was a good start, I imagine the upcoming wolves and DA novels will help too). What I don't like is the way people look down on developments if they aren't to their personal tastes, or when they paint things with oversized brushes.

[Sete]

I will like Primaris more if they have a proper range, and more options. I have bought an intercessors box and a Captain, but as of now they feel limited, and I have no interest working on them.

Reivers (imo) were a miss. Especially the skull heads. Just nah mate. Give them some scout Google's or whatever. In a galaxy full of weird and terrifying aliens it's not a skull helmet that's it's going to make the Terror part work. the super human with a knife your size will do the trick. Helmet skulls are just poor taste.

I might get some reivers, to use them like scouts but not a single helmet will be used.

[Blindhamster]

i quite like the reiver models honestly - though i've not used helms on any of mine (I did use the masked heads still though), but the standard intercessor/hellblaster and characters are by far the best parts of the range.

They absolutely need fleshing out more, which will presumably come to explain how a primaris only chapter functions.

 

however, my post wasn't advocating that people had to like primaris (they absolutely don't have to like them, and I doubt anyone loves everything about them - including me).

 

my yawn post was purely because the overly negative derogatory tone taken toward progression of the story or the primaris line is frankly unecessary. And I wanted to highlight how a lot of the "negative" things about current developments aren't really new, having already been done or seen before, so its just more of the same rather than taking it in a new rubbish direction.

 

I do believe primaris will eventually replace regular marines, but its far enough into the future that by the time it happens, i'd expect a lot more units to exist to cover all the bases as it were, primaris can function as a stand alone army if needed, but could use more diversity in terms of units, but there have been a few threads on that already, and no doubt GW will plug gaps as time (and presumably story) dictates.

[Sete]

I literally just need veterans in regular mkx armour with free choice of gear. And I'll make it work. Just that.

Also Greatsword.

[Kinstryfe]

To echo what Blindhamster said a bit, I think there's a common reaction to primaris and newer story developments that takes for granted that the /old/ story developments did not spring fully formed from the loremasters' heads. Everything we know about Primaris right now is from a very small amount of material. There was a time when the Eisenstein housed all seventy-odd loyalist Marines from the traitor legions, and now there are books and rulebooks and novellas and audioplays and more books just expanding on the details in what was once less than a page of fluff. The lore we have now is NOTHING like how most of it started. It's been very much a living document with thirty years of codexes, white dwarf, black library, and Forgeworld all putting their unique, sometimes contradictory, stamps on everything they cover. This is a setting where Primarchs are named after poets, novelists, and dumb Latin translations. If you're used to having the whole, fleshed out story, then you either weren't around the hobby that long ago, or you've forgotten how thin the lore used to be.

 

Right now we're in act one of the play GW is publishing, and there's bound to be a lot more to come. It's like reading The Lord of the Rings up thru the first book and being positive that those wraiths are totally going to kill those hobbits. You may be right, but an awful lot can happen between point a and point c.

 

So, will Primaris completely replace old Astartes in the fluff? The answer is a definite maybe. Keep reading and we'll probably all find out.

[Boldthreat]

i really don't buy that it's a logistics issue. Remember, call had 10,000 years to not just put these guys together, but also design, manufacture and equip them for this task. I absolutely believe the new chapters and the reinforced chapters were equipped with enough equipment to be viable.

 

And I get that many people want to believe that in the 40k world, superstition and backwards thinking would cause many chapters to recoil from Primaris and their use... but isn't this kind of the point? The reawakening of Guilliman has changed the Space Marines. This isn't some guy bearing false gifts. This is a Primarch, A mythological being in his own right, alive, bringing new equipment and practices and dispelling mythology when and where he can. All of his sons would embrace everything he does... religiously. The other genelines would also toe the line out of reverent respect as well. The Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists being prime examples. Dark Imperium clearly states that 97 percent of the Chapters accept the Primaris.

 

But why is this a bad thing? I'm like most of you here... I have enjoyed this setting for 20 plus years and I initially had the same gut reaction you did... but what really changes? Yeah Guilliman brings hope and progress where there was none... and the Primaris are the embodiment of that for the Space Marines. But they are still Space Marines. They still operate in 1000 man Chapters. They still have bolt guns and power armor and are an elite strike force. More importantly Marines die. When they do why is it a bad thing that they are replaced by Primaris Marines? Its not even a passing of a torch, it's just the Chapters moving forward with new technology and resources to better serve the Imperium in this Apocalyptic age.

 

I will agree their indroduction was hasty and could have been handled better. It's a shame that we still do not have a good idea on how they organize, especially for the Primaris only Chapters...

 

Are the Rievers scout replacements? Is the 10th Company in a Primaris Chapter the Riever Company? How apart are they from the rest of the Chapter?

 

What about the 1st Company? Are there Primaris Terminators (say yes)? Sternguard or Vanguard equivalents? Why was this left out of the latest codex? For the love of Dorn you could have at least let us spend CPs to make units veteran with cool USRs or something.

 

Where is the Overlord? When can we see it?

 

Why the hell do we have auto bolt rifles and bolt carbines? They do the same thing... why was that done this way?

 

Not one Primaris special character? Why? Why do we need to cling to these older characters? Dante, Azrael, Kantor... Calgar... we had the great rift, the Indomitus Crusade and the plague wars... give these guys the Vladimir Pugh treatment and let's introduce the next generation.

 

(Don't shoot me)