Your thoughts on the Primaris and lore progression

[chapter master 454]

Again it's mainly the 'and suddenly he appeared and everything was fine and everyone was happy and joyous and no-one lost anything of value' which is bad writing.

 

Cawl is the big offender. "I was so happened to be commissioned to make armour for big G for this reason 10k years ago and also ordered super marines back then for no reason that would totally being behind the emperor's back".

 

Primaris are ok, Cawl is not.

[Filkarion]

I like primaris, both from modelling and fluff prospective

 

First, I would like to just have a lot of primaris legs/torso to convert in awesome caos marines charachters/champion/possessed/freak-marines

They simply made for glorious conversions by mixing them with existing chaos range (even old old kits, even fantasy chaos bits...I love them)

The final result is an imposing model, and I like a lot the different size in same army thing...works well for chaos at last

 

Second, I like the fact that they were introduced as new marines as oppose to "the new space marines scale is this", as it simply does not invalidate all previous marines armies. And the sheer number of "truescaling" projects and tutorials in this forum proves that new sculpt (and "scale") for the most iconic 40k figures were _needed_ 

GW managed to achieve both.

 

Third; incredibly I kinda like the fluff. Yes, Kawl was a bit of a Deus Ex Machina (which is funny if you think about it^^ ) but every story is not so great when you first heard about it. What made 40k really great where the years of filling gaps/adding questions by different authors that made a likable story the marvel it is right now.

They wanted to resurrect a Primarch and put back in the game the surviving ones... that obviously involved pushing the setting forward. And it war done well, from what i have read.

The Cicatrix itself is really good for the setting. Chaos incursion can happen everywhere now! All races can be scattered in every place of the galaxy, more than before! 

Part of the Imperium is cut off from the rest, meaning a lot of places in a more gray area (more not "chaos", not "imperium", not "xenos dominated" human planets).

Then Primaris in the fluff:

They are a big deal, big enough for rising a lot of tension. "Old" Marines that see their days numbered, other that do not accept them, do not share their secrets with them. Other that accept them, but still see them as different. It is not simply "they are the new marines" and everyone happy.

New things, yes, but by two 10k years old progressist, who are in a way gray figures themself. A misterious arrogant Techpriest out of nowhere and a Primarch who is only accepted because is a Primarch.

He dislikes the Imperium and the Imperium seems a bit upsetted by him as well. 

In a way the Galaxy is less absolute now that heroes come out of legend and I see this as good thing.

 

"Mistakes" in narrative have been made, but no story is perfect. It can become better with time

[BitsHammer]

I feel like Cawl might fit better if he gets retrofitted into the setting via things like the cursed foundings. I mean having people just kind of pop up with the deus ex machina of the week is pretty standard GW writing (unfortunately) but honestly I only really count on the studio to create bullet points for the rest of us (players and those who are more into writing) to build off of. And perhaps that's the thing, I never went into this expecting anything. Even what I have taken from it is more the broad strokes (well broad strokes and Celestine/Greyfax's tsundere (if you don't know what the word means, you just don't speak Tau :p) relationship) and I run with that more than I do the nitty gritty details of what GW writes anymore.

 

I mean GW has recently retconned the Rainbow Warriors to no longer getting purged by Sisters (they also retconned to being "heroically dead" veruses "traitors we're trying to kill because they're too radical for the Imperium") but you won't see me flipping my table over that.

 

Basically I feel like the plot summary might be better to go off of than the details since the studios details are both not enough to satisfy those of us who want the whole story (ironically this happened during 5th with the Bloodtide where the basic agreement of "could be better if fleshed out more" cropped up, so it's now exactly a new issue), or tend to repeat the same notes.

 

I see a lot ot love in the broad strokes, and can ignore the more glaring details in exchange for that.

[Bryan Blaire]

Why in the world do people keep saying that a new height of miniature Marines somehow “invalidates” other Marine models in a smaller scale? What is with that?

 

Did the new Land Raider model somehow make the old Land Raider somehow invalid to play with? No.

Did the new Rhino model somehow make the old Rhino invalid to play with? No.

Did the new Terminator plastics somehow make the old smaller metal Terminators invalid to play with? No.

Did the new plastic Marines in 3rd Edition somehow make the 2nd Edition (3rd was just slightly taller than 2nd) plastic or metal Marines invalid to play with? No.

Did those plastics make RT Marines invalid to play with? No (but there were some weapons you couldn’t use any more).

 

GW has never made a rule that older models, regardless of scale, are now invalid to play with - they have simply invalidated war gear load outs.

[chamberlainskeksil]

Part of the Imperium is cut off from the rest, meaning a lot of places in a more gray area (more not "chaos", not "imperium", not "xenos dominated" human planets).

 

This is actually a great thing.  One thing my group does to keep things friendly for newer players is do really small skirmish games.  We even use the Age of Sigmar: Skirmish rules as well as some 8th edition 40k kill team rules here on Bolter & Chainsword.  I think it's time we consider making a campaign/setting for these games.  I think a system in the Imperium Nihilis near one of the paths through the Great Rift would do nicely.  I'm going to talk to people and see if there's any interest in being a bit more intentional about doing small narrative snippets, linking games in campaigns and so on.

[Xwingt65]

I absolutely love the new Primaris models, they are fantastic to paint.

 

I have no foot in either camp with regards to their lore, but I am intrigued to see how it will progress.

[Lexington]

Part of the Imperium is cut off from the rest, meaning a lot of places in a more gray area (more not "chaos", not "imperium", not "xenos dominated" human planets).

There's some irony in the fact that GW's own dedication to simple, clear factionalization in the modern background is what would make people think that something like the Rift would be necessary to have this kind of variety. Independent colonies and other non or only quasi-Imperial human colonies have been a part of the game's background since the beginning. The galaxy is a big place, and the Imperium's reach, while broad, is a very thin and fragile thing. These sorts just don't get talked about anymore, since there's no associated models to sell. I imagine this will continue to be the case.

[Ishagu]

Actually, pre Great Rift there was no existing in-universe justification for a Tau force attacking a colony on the Western Fringe.

 

Their ships don't enter the warp and are too slow. Now, with the great rift, it's possible.

[Arganias]

I generally like Primaris as a plot device to drive the story forward. I feel that the urgency for them to be pressed into service without proper testing and the fact that many chapters do not like them, but tolerate them due to their dire circumstances. The Space Wolves do not like them, the Dark Angels do not trust them, and the Flesh Tearers think they are an insult to the legacy of their primarch. I would like to know more about the 7-10% of chapters that outright refused to take them, and I imagine we will in time. We are in the middle of the marketing drive, but it seems to be winding down for the next phase of the story, Chaos Primaris, where we find out they are just as flawed as other space marines, but perhaps some chapters have driven them to betrayal.

 

I just hope they don't drop the ball with Space Wolf primaris. I feel like there are some deeper seeds that have been planted in the lore about them, we will just see if they grow and if Primaris continue to solve all problems in the galaxy, but they will soon be the new normal as we approach the year mark of 8th edition. 

[deathspectersgt7]

Yup marketing drive sounds about right .

 

Actually, pre Great Rift there was no existing in-universe justification for a Tau force attacking a colony on the Western Fringe.

Their ships don't enter the warp and are too slow. Now, with the great rift, it's possible.

You are about  to burst.

[Marshal Rohr]

Actually, pre Great Rift there was no existing in-universe justification for a Tau force attacking a colony on the Western Fringe.

 

Their ships don't enter the warp and are too slow. Now, with the great rift, it's possible.

Detail over simplicity would mean the Tau don’t need to go to the Segmentum Pacificus, because they are pressed enough by local threats brought by the rift. There is not faction in another Segmentum the Tau cannot face locally.

 

The only faction hamstrung by locality are the space marines and luckily the acknowledgment that the codex is a useless restriction means chapters can expand larger than ever before and reorganize to fight battles their own way. The Codex is now a purely tactical doctrine, and in no way a binding norm unless the player wishes to keep it the tradition in his personal chapter.

 

Bring on the new legions!

[BitsHammer]

No, he's right. The Rift does fix the Tau by throwing a whole expansion to anywhere and anywhen. Tau could even have uplifted their own race thanks to this (which is kind of funny to think about that possible paradox). At least it allows them to have more impact on the galaxy and in campaigns nowhere near the Gulf.

[Marshal Rohr]

No, he's right. The Rift does fix the Tau by throwing a whole expansion to anywhere and anywhen. Tau could even have uplifted their own race thanks to this (which is kind of funny to think about that possible paradox). At least it allows them to have more impact on the galaxy and in campaigns nowhere near the Gulf.

My point is that the Tau didn’t need fixing. They don’t need to be everywhere in the galaxy. Also, everything I’ve read has indicated ‘good factions’ can’t use the rift like chaos factions can. You can’t get in near the Tau Empire and use it like a big river to come out in the Segmentum Solar. Battlefleets cant survive traveling through the rift, only smaller detachments or single vessels can relatively intact and still heavily damaged. Without some serious retcons the Tau ships aren’t going to be rated for the rift given their inability to travel in the warp as they were before. Their ships aren’t going to magically be strong enough to survive the stronger currents of the rift if they could barely survive the calmer currents of the old warp.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

Part of the Imperium is cut off from the rest, meaning a lot of places in a more gray area (more not "chaos", not "imperium", not "xenos dominated" human planets).

There's some irony in the fact that GW's own dedication to simple, clear factionalization in the modern background is what would make people think that something like the Rift would be necessary to have this kind of variety. Independent colonies and other non or only quasi-Imperial human colonies have been a part of the game's background since the beginning. The galaxy is a big place, and the Imperium's reach, while broad, is a very thin and fragile thing. These sorts just don't get talked about anymore, since there's no associated models to sell. I imagine this will continue to be the case.

That’s the saddest result of the lore progression. 40k as it is now suffers from the mass effect problem. There’s no more wild space. Everything is the same everywhere.

[chamberlainskeksil]

 

Part of the Imperium is cut off from the rest, meaning a lot of places in a more gray area (more not "chaos", not "imperium", not "xenos dominated" human planets).

There's some irony in the fact that GW's own dedication to simple, clear factionalization in the modern background is what would make people think that something like the Rift would be necessary to have this kind of variety. Independent colonies and other non or only quasi-Imperial human colonies have been a part of the game's background since the beginning. The galaxy is a big place, and the Imperium's reach, while broad, is a very thin and fragile thing. These sorts just don't get talked about anymore, since there's no associated models to sell. I imagine this will continue to be the case.

 

 

It used to be that the most likely place you'd find a non-imperial human world was on the fringe.  At the edge of the galaxy.  Now the galaxy has a new edge and a solid portion of it has just spent a century or so on the other side of the great rift.

 

The biggest disappointment for me with pretty much anything titled Dark Imperium was that it was not set in the Dark Imperium.  Both the general setting of the starter and the bulk of the novel was in one of the most civilised areas of the galaxy.  I think they missed out not having Dark Imperium be about the Dark Imperium.  That said, I do still need to read Devastation of Baal, as it is actually set in the Dark Imperium.

 

If the clear factionalization domesticated the galaxy then the great rift just put it through a process of re-wilding.

[Marshal Rohr]

The old dark Imperium book from second edition stressed that there were uncountable human world’s undiscovered by the Imperium everywhere in the galaxy because it’s 3 dimensional. There could be a hyper advanced human civilization in a system right next to terra and they could never know about it.

[chamberlainskeksil]

The old dark Imperium book from second edition stressed that there were uncountable human world’s undiscovered by the Imperium everywhere in the galaxy because it’s 3 dimensional. There could be a hyper advanced human civilization in a system right next to terra and they could never know about it.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration give how the stars are actually arrayed in the galaxy.  It's a disc so the 3rd dimension is actually not as densly populated with stars.

 

Furthermore, a hyper advanced human civlization in a system right near terra could only exist if they were magically hiding to the point of irrelevancy.  If a planet is 100 light years away and they use any sort of vox or other type signals, the imperium is going to know about them in 100 years (or less) and if it's close to Terra, that's definitely going to be an area that is monitored, well traveled, explored, etc.,.

 

Another advantage of the great rift method of rewilding the galaxy is that any now unknown area you want to make your playground is in the reach of everyone without it being magically hiding to the point of irrelevancy like if it was near Terra.

 

Probably my favorite Primaris related idea is that of something like the Great Crusade in the 30k novels where newly forged marines with maybe a century of experience encounter new and cool sci-fi things in an unknown expanse.  It doesn't actually matter at all if that could have been fit into the pre-rift 40k universe.  It's still a cool thing that's part of the Primaris story now.

[Lay]

It used to be that the most likely place you'd find a non-imperial human world was on the fringe.  At the edge of the galaxy.  Now the galaxy has a new edge and a solid portion of it has just spent a century or so on the other side of the great rift.

 

 

"So vast is the Imperium, so colossal are the distances and delays in communication between branches of the labyrinthine hierarchy that centralized rule and accurate census are impossible. Billions of citizens die every day, tiny embers lost against the backdrop of stars, their passing unnoticed for a thousand years or perhaps not even noted at all. Orders issued by the High Lords must run the gauntlet of the Imperium’s ponderous bureaucracy, passing down through Segmentum commanders, sector and sub-sector administrators before reaching planetary governors who must enact those edicts. Such communications are prone to alteration, so the orders a governor receives will often bear little resemblance to those that were issued. Pleas for aid or clarification may not be acted upon for centuries, whilst the request plies its uncertain path to functionary senior enough to take action. Indeed, it is not uncommon for fleets and armies to arrive at a war zone to discover the conflict they were dispatched to wage has long since concluded. So it is that some worlds fall into anarchy or are abandoned to a terrible fate through simply being forgotten, having slipped through the cracks of the Imperial bureaucracy.

 

(...)

The Imperium of Man comprises a million inhabited worlds, stretching from the furthest reaches of the Eastern Fringe to the distant Halo Stars. Although this is a huge number of planets, it is as nothing when compared to the immense size of the galaxy itself. The Imperium is spread very thinly across space: its worlds are dotted through the void and divided by hundreds if not thousands of light years. It is therefore wrong to think of the Imperium in terms of a territory which extends across the galaxy. The truth is far more complex. The Imperium’s holdings are scattered far and wide by the vagaries of Warp travel and spatial drift. One inhabited system may be separated from its nearest neighbor by alien civilizations, unstable Warp storms, dimensional cascades or unexplored space. Indeed, Mankind’s ignorance of his environs far exceeds his meager knowledge, for humanity has yet to explore much of the galaxy. Who knows what ancient secrets lie undiscovered and undisturbed amongst the stars?

 

The pattern of human settlement throughout the galaxy owes much to the nature of space travel. All interstellar travel is undertaken using Warp drives that launch a spacecraft into the alternative dimension of Warp space. Within Warp space a ship can cover the equivalent of many thousands of light years within a relatively short time, dropping back into real space far away from its starting point. The unpredictable and turbulent nature of Warp space means that some parts of the galaxy are harder to reach than others. Some zones are eternally isolated by swirling Warp storms, dichotomic turbulence and violent currents within the ether. Other areas can only be reached by difficult and dangerous routes, or are accessible only during lulls in the fierce fluctuations of the Warp. Some parts of Warp space act as dimensional vortices, ensnaring spacecraft and tearing them apart with impossible forces. In others, time flows disjointedly with the material realm. Days become nanoseconds, minutes stretch into years, and the future spirals into the past."

 

- 5th edition Rulebook, pgs 102/103:

[chamberlainskeksil]

And yet, pretty much every story GW produces about unknown human civilizations are not like that.  They're across some gulf or at the edge of the light of the astronomicon.

 

It would be cool if GW did more with that, but I think it's fair to say that the charge of factionalization reducing the wild spaces for commercial reasons is an accurate one.

 

As is the statement that the Great Rift is a rewilding event.

 

For all the times they put pages in the core rulebook like quoted above (102 of the 5th edition rulebook) talking about the unknown nature of the universe, it pales compared to the obviously unknown nature of the Imperium Nihilis.

[BitsHammer]

 

No, he's right. The Rift does fix the Tau by throwing a whole expansion to anywhere and anywhen. Tau could even have uplifted their own race thanks to this (which is kind of funny to think about that possible paradox). At least it allows them to have more impact on the galaxy and in campaigns nowhere near the Gulf.

My point is that the Tau didn’t need fixing. They don’t need to be everywhere in the galaxy. Also, everything I’ve read has indicated ‘good factions’ can’t use the rift like chaos factions can. You can’t get in near the Tau Empire and use it like a big river to come out in the Segmentum Solar. Battlefleets cant survive traveling through the rift, only smaller detachments or single vessels can relatively intact and still heavily damaged. Without some serious retcons the Tau ships aren’t going to be rated for the rift given their inability to travel in the warp as they were before. Their ships aren’t going to magically be strong enough to survive the stronger currents of the rift if they could barely survive the calmer currents of the old warp.

 

I disagree, but that's personal taste I suppose. I felt that the Tau were too clustered into a small space that had trouble fitting into greater events. Especially in campaigns like the Black Crusades or the recent Nurgle vs Ultramarines one, or in smaller campaigns set outside the Gulf in local gaming groups.

[Ishagu]

Tau don't need to be everywhere? I'm sorry but that's plain wrong.

 

40k is about creating your stories in a sandbox universe. Having a reason for Tau to show up at the eye of terror is only good for creating your own narrative.

[Gree]

I like the Primaris, though I probably won't be doing any more than a unit or two. I already have enough Marines as it is.

[Lay]

And yet, pretty much every story GW produces about unknown human civilizations are not like that.  They're across some gulf or at the edge of the light of the astronomicon.

 

It would be cool if GW did more with that, but I think it's fair to say that the charge of factionalization reducing the wild spaces for commercial reasons is an accurate one.

 

As is the statement that the Great Rift is a rewilding event.

 

So basically what Lexington said

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

The old dark Imperium book from second edition stressed that there were uncountable human world’s undiscovered by the Imperium everywhere in the galaxy because it’s 3 dimensional. There could be a hyper advanced human civilization in a system right next to terra and they could never know about it.

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration give how the stars are actually arrayed in the galaxy. It's a disc so the 3rd dimension is actually not as densly populated with stars.

 

Furthermore, a hyper advanced human civlization in a system right near terra could only exist if they were magically hiding to the point of irrelevancy. If a planet is 100 light years away and they use any sort of vox or other type signals, the imperium is going to know about them in 100 years (or less) and if it's close to Terra, that's definitely going to be an area that is monitored, well traveled, explored, etc.,.

 

Another advantage of the great rift method of rewilding the galaxy is that any now unknown area you want to make your playground is in the reach of everyone without it being magically hiding to the point of irrelevancy like if it was near Terra.

 

Probably my favorite Primaris related idea is that of something like the Great Crusade in the 30k novels where newly forged marines with maybe a century of experience encounter new and cool sci-fi things in an unknown expanse. It doesn't actually matter at all if that could have been fit into the pre-rift 40k universe. It's still a cool thing that's part of the Primaris story now.

Obviously I’m being imprecise about ‘right next too’. Armageddon is right next to Terra. So is Prospero and Necromunda. Physically, not so much. Relatively, yes.

[chamberlainskeksil]

 

And yet, pretty much every story GW produces about unknown human civilizations are not like that.  They're across some gulf or at the edge of the light of the astronomicon.

 

It would be cool if GW did more with that, but I think it's fair to say that the charge of factionalization reducing the wild spaces for commercial reasons is an accurate one.

 

As is the statement that the Great Rift is a rewilding event.

 

So basically what Lexington said

 

And what Marshal Rohr wrote about the loss of wild space.

 

I think Lexington is correct in that assessment and the Great Rift deals with the issue very, very directly.  So I think it's a positive.